Verin's lie?

[Luckers]

That seems a bit of an extreme cloglord. After all, all of those sisters bar none were da'tsang, forced to grueling physical labour. When they met with Verin they were exhausted, both physically, and in their convictions--being enslaved by overly impressive wilders by a man who can channel....

 

Against that you have Moiraine, poised, confident, wary of Verin. Where is the crack that allowed Verin to control Moiraine?

 

And doesn't it seem overmuch to you? Going to all that effort to get Moiraine to speak a few words that she could later refer to as an incidental alibi... these were shienaran. She could have told them that fire god who lived in her earlobe sent her, and they would nod and bow and ask her what they should do next.

[cloglord]

That seems a bit of an extreme cloglord. After all, all of those sisters bar none were da'tsang, forced to grueling physical labour. When they met with Verin they were exhausted, both physically, and in their convictions--being enslaved by overly impressive wilders by a man who can channel....

 

Nope, not extreme, just the answer to a question posed by Maj.  He said that Moraine wouldn't trust Verin, and I pointed out examples of sisters with even less reason to trust her, that she managed to work her magic on.  Don't get your crappy compulsion weaves mixed up ;).  Liandrin is the one who needed her subjects vulnerable, Verin only needs hers to trust her, something that Moraine and Suian were forced to do mere chapters earlier.

 

And doesn't it seem overmuch to you? Going to all that effort to get Moiraine to speak a few words that she could later refer to as an incidental alibi...

 

Yes it seems entirely overmuch, but then again I don't think that Verin compelled her to do it in order to get an alibi, I think it was a side effect.  I think that she compelled Moraine to get her out of the way long enough that Verin could ensure that the Horn and Rand got to Toman Head.  I think that as a side effect, Moraine's toungue was loosened, she said something to the effect that Verin should go to him, and then promptly forgot the whole encounter.  It would be too much if Verin compelled her just to get an alibi.  The forgetfulness effect would simply and adequately explain the lie however

[Luckers]

Nope, not extreme, just the answer to a question posed by Maj.  He said that Moraine wouldn't trust Verin, and I pointed out examples of sisters with even less reason to trust her, that she managed to work her magic on.  Don't get your crappy compulsion weaves mixed up .  Liandrin is the one who needed her subjects vulnerable, Verin only needs hers to trust her, something that Moraine and Suian were forced to do mere chapters earlier.

 

Actually i havn't got my weaves mixed up. Verin did not need her subjects to trust her, she needed them not to be wary. She specifically states that. Being forced to trust her, as you so emphatically pointed out, served my point not yours. Moiraine had specific reason to pay attention to Verin, which is precisely what defeats Verin's method.

 

I do not see Verin being able to use her method against Moiraine

 

 

[elmis]

Considering that this "lie" has been discussed since book two came out' date=' and since RJ specifically denied that this was a mistake, I have to believe that the lie was an intentional plot device on the part of RJ.  Given what RJ had revealed to us about Verin's trick later on, I think that the lie was supposed to be an indicator, early on, that Verin had some trick up her sleeve.[/quote']

 

If this is the case, I'll be supremely disappointed.

[ignavus1223]

I always believed Verin meant that Moiraine indirectly sent Verin to accompany Rand by her actions.  Without Moiraine leaving Rand alone, Verin would not need to follow him, so she is there because of Moiraine.  Therefore, Moiraine could be said to have sent her. 

[Davian93]

Without Moiraine leaving Rand alone, Verin would not need to follow him, so she is there because of Moiraine.  Therefore, Moiraine could be said to have sent her. 

 

I don't buy that...its a little too convoluted even for AS reasoning.

[Majsju]

When Verin uses her trick on Beldeine in TPOD, Beldeine is, as Luckers pointed out, physically exhausted from hard work. But even with Beldeine in such a weakened state, Verin makes a point of asking if she can Heal her, so she would have a reason to not only hold Saidar, but to use it on Beldeine. And she does not do anything until Beldeine accepts. With the three Oaths in place, Beldeine knows Verin can't kill her with saidar, and she has no reason whatsoever to suspect Verin knows Compulsion, not even the homemade version Verin is using.

 

So, Beldeine might not trust Verin in general, but she has absolutely no  reason to suspect Verin is planning to do anything other than what she said, Healing, until it's too late.

 

Moiraine, on the other hand, would go red alert by the mere suspicion of Verin planning to seize Saidar without a damn good reason if the two of them were alone.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not to mention that Moiraine started distancing herself from Rand before Verin got to Fal Dara, so even if Verin could have used her pseudo-Compulsion (not likely with Moiraine, especially in that situation, for all the reasons stated), she had no need to do so.  Moiraine was already letting Rand go his own way, leaving him open for Verin's plan, assuming she had one, which its likely she did.

 

There's just no need to add Verin's pseudo-Compulsion to the mix, there.

[BrainFireBob]

Hot damn.

 

So, that was when Moiraine and Siuan were talking, and when I re-read that section, I was thinking that there was an offscreen implied "filling in" of Verin Jordan left out, or he meant Verin to be there and then moved when she was included. So I'll modify what I said to "all it requires is an 'I wish one of us could escort him, but . . .'" for Verin to be able to truthfully say she was sent, and Moiraine thought she would be needed.

[dyring]

Verin has no need to heal those sisters in the aiel camps for a reason to hold saidar, She´s already holding the shield on them if my memory serves. thats just to make them more relaxed and unsuspecting.

 

//dyring

[cloglord]

I don't buy the whole paranoid Moraine prevents compulsion argument.  I mean come on, aes sedai channel their socks on, if Verin needed an excuse to sieze Saidair in Moraine's presence all it would take is a cold pot of tea.  I do not buy the argument that Moraine was more wary, untrusting, whatever, than a well beaten, shielded prisoner being interogated by an enemy agent.

 

So, if you guys are all so smart, why did Moraine suddenly decide, apparently without telling anyone where she was going, to go on a research mission?  Why did she suddenly come around to Verin's POV, and decide that the horn would go to Toman Head?  What did Moraine find that made her so sure of this that she went to go lurk around Falme when even Verin was unsure that was were they were headed?  From Moraine's POV what sent her to Falme?

[Luckers]

Well i do. Beldeine and the others were exhausted, physically done. Verin offered them healing, and in that very idea they were unsuspecting.

 

Moiraine however would have been. There is no way around it. She would not have been in anyway distructed. Her focus was not blunted. And Verin had no reason to use the power on her.

 

So, if you guys are all so smart, why did Moraine suddenly decide, apparently without telling anyone where she was going, to go on a research mission?  Why did she suddenly come around to Verin's POV, and decide that the horn would go to Toman Head?  What did Moraine find that made her so sure of this that she went to go lurk around Falme when even Verin was unsure that was were they were headed?  From Moraine's POV what sent her to Falme?

 

Umm, intelligence isn't really needed for that. Events had thrown Moiraine and Siuan's plans out the window. She herself stated that. From there she needed information, hence the research mission. I don't know what you mean when you speak of Moiraine 'coming around to Verin's POV' or any of the rest of that sentence. Moiraine enquired about Toman head based on the references in the Dark Prophecy. Upon finding collaborating evidence in the Karatheon Cycle, and added to the rumours of the Seanchan she decided to go to Toman head.

 

Where is any of this about the horn being linked to toman head, or about Moiraine acting in any way upon Verin's opinions?

 

Also, though its irrelevant, in what way does Moiraine doing something that Verin is uncertain about support some compulsion idea?

[RobertAlexWillis]

So, if you guys are all so smart, why did Moraine suddenly decide, apparently without telling anyone where she was going, to go on a research mission?

 

For the reasons she told Adeleas and Vandene.  She needed information.  And for the reasons she told Siuan.  Rand had to be given space, because of his nature.

 

Why did she suddenly come around to Verin's POV, and decide that the horn would go to Toman Head?

 

Moiraine never "decided" that.  She asked about Toman Head because of the Dark Prophecy, as Luckers said.

 

What did Moraine find that made her so sure of this that she went to go lurk around Falme when even Verin was unsure that was were they were headed? From Moraine's POV what sent her to Falme?

 

DaaaAAAAaark ProooOOOOooooophecy. (I'm not sure how else to type the "scary ghost voice" but I hope you get the idea).

 

In other words, Moiraine had plenty of reason to do what she did, without Verin's interference.

[zshadez]

"So, if you guys are all so smart, why did Moraine suddenly decide, apparently without telling anyone where she was going, to go on a research mission?  Why did she suddenly come around to Verin's POV, and decide that the horn would go to Toman Head?  What did Moraine find that made her so sure of this that she went to go lurk around Falme when even Verin was unsure that was were they were headed?  From Moraine's POV what sent her to Falme?"

 

She needed information, so she went to get it. Also, the only one who decided that the horn would go to Toman Head was Fain. Moraine went because while she was gethering information she heard that her sisters were being captured in/around that area and she wanted to find out what was going on.

[cloglord]

Where is any of this about the horn being linked to toman head, or about Moiraine acting in any way upon Verin's opinions?

 

There is no link in the books, the question that I was asking is why would Moraine suddenly decide to go to Toman head, since we know that her priority was the horn, and Rand.  What possible indication would she have that Rand would end up on Toman head, and by virtue of Rand's presence the horn's presence as well.

 

The dark prophecy that everyone seems to think is the answer, simply is not.  There are three location entioned in that dark prophecy, Toman Head, the "high passes," and Tar Valon.  In the context of the prophecy, the Tar Valon reference is linked to Lanfear, the "high passes" reference is linked to Isam/slayer, and the Toman Head pasage is linked to "the seed of the Hammer."  At that time the rumors associated with the "invaders" were not sufficiently detailed to indicate a real link between the them and the descendants of Hawkwing, but even if they were, there was next to nothing in the prophecies of the dragon to suggest that Rand would go to Toman Head.  And yet, Moraine still manages to end up there.  If you remember the conversations that Moraine, Suiane and Verin had in Fal Dara you will remember that Verin emphasizes the importance of Toman Head and the Almoth Plain repeatedly, and that both Moraine and Suian seem pretty uninterested.  So why the change of heart?  Verin thinks its important, the other two do not, then suddenly Moraine changes her behavior, and heads off in a direction that she has no reason to believe will end with her reunion with Rand, her previously stated goal.  She acts strangely.  If it were simply a matter of curiousity about the dark prophecy why didn't she decide to go to the high passes to look for Lan's cousin, or back to Tar Valon to attempt to thwart Lanfear?

 

ON the issue of whether Verin could have been sucessful in using the weave on Moraine, here's my thoughts.  IN the prolouge to PoD, Verin describes the weave and its limitations.  Its effects include, an ability to implant subconscious suggestions that are highly effective, they loosen the toungue and open the mind better than any herb, and a total fogetfullness of the act itself.  Its limits are that it is slow, works better if the subject is taken unaware and requires that the subject trusts the channeler performing the weave.  We KNOW that Verin was succesful at implanting her suggestion into Beldeine, yet 4 pages prior to gaining her trust and permission to heal her beldeine says, "I would rather bleed to death than be healed by you!"  I would say that either makes Verin the queen of manipulation, or that it doesn't really require complete and utter trust in all things.  In either case, Verin is successful a total of 19 times in implanting her suggestions into the minds of the captured tower sisters.  19 out of 19 times, so what makes Moraine so special?  What makes her immune, when Beldeine succumbs after expressing a willingness to die rather than let Verin Heal her a mere 4 pages before Verin pulls it off?  Is Moraine wonderwoman in disguise, is she wearing an aluminum foil hat to keep out the braincontrol waves?

 

Quote

Why did she suddenly come around to Verin's POV, and decide that the horn would go to Toman Head?

 

Moiraine never "decided" that.  She asked about Toman Head because of the Dark Prophecy, as Luckers said.

 

It is bad word choice, but none the less Moraine did decide that the Horn would go to Toman Head, not in the sense that she decreed that it would go there, rather in the way that she had to make a best guess as to where it, and by extension, Rand were most likely to end up.  In the end, based on some information or suggestion that we are not privy to, she decided that the most likely place for the horn and Rand to surface would be Toman Head.  Since she seemed indifferent to the idea in chapter 3 of TGH, I don't understand why she would suddenly feel the need to rush off into the middle of nowhere and investigate it in CH. 4.  It seems out of character to me.   

 

DaaaAAAAaark ProooOOOOooooophecy. (I'm not sure how else to type the "scary ghost voice" but I hope you get the idea).

 

In other words, Moiraine had plenty of reason to do what she did, without Verin's interference.

 

As I indicated above there is nothing in the DaaaAAAaaark ProooOOOoooooophecy (sp?)  ;)  That linked Toman Head to Rand or the Horn.  Since Moraine seems pretty focused on Rand, I don't know why she would risk losing him in order to go chasing arcane lore in the backwaters of Kandor, that is unless she sent another trusted sister to watch him in her place,....perhaps at that trusted sister's SuuuuUUUUUuuuuuggestion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As I indicated above there is nothing in the DaaaAAAaaark ProooOOOoooooophecy that linked Toman Head to Rand or the Horn.

 

 

It was linked to Fain, who had stolen the Horn.  Also, when she did get to Vandene and Adeleas, looking for information, Vandene quoted the prophecy as follows:

 

"Five ride forth, four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire."

 

THG ch 22

 

Vandene then goes on to specifically link that prophecy with Do Miere A'vron, the Watchers over the Waves.

 

Combine that with this from the uber-scary Dark Prophecy:

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

 

and you can see exactly where Moiraine would get the idea.

 

She went looking for information on what to do next.  She got it, and it pointed her to Toman Head, where "Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself".  Who is "he"?  El Dragon Renacer.

 

She didn't get the idea in Fal Dara.  She distanced herself from Rand in Fal Dara because she knew him well enough to know that he needed space (a process decided on and begun before Verin arrived).  But she didn't want to just cut him loose forever.  So, she went looking for some info on where he would show up next.  Since the prophecy she found clearly stated that "Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself", and the Watchers are on Toman Head ... which was mentioned in the Dark Prophecy too ...

 

... oh crap!  He's gonna be on Toman Head!  Guess I better hie my Aes Sedai butt over there and check it out.

[cloglord]

She didn't get the idea in Fal Dara.  She distanced herself from Rand in Fal Dara because she knew him well enough to know that he needed space (a process decided on and begun before Verin arrived).  But she didn't want to just cut him loose forever.  So, she went looking for some info on where he would show up next.  Since the prophecy she found clearly stated that "Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself", and the Watchers are on Toman Head ... which was mentioned in the Dark Prophecy too ...

 

... She didn't get the idea in Fal Dara.  She distanced herself from Rand in Fal Dara because she knew him well enough to know that he needed space (a process decided on and begun before Verin arrived).  But she didn't want to just cut him loose forever.  So, she went looking for some info on where he would show up next.  Since the prophecy she found clearly stated that "Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself", and the Watchers are on Toman Head ... which was mentioned in the Dark Prophecy too ...

 

... oh crap!  He's gonna be on Toman Head!  Guess I better hie my Aes Sedai butt over there and check it out.

 

Why would she cut him loose and then try and track his next reappearance by means of ancient an easily misinterpreted prophecy, coupled with a dark prophecy that they were not even sure was prophecy.  Here's an alternate example. 

 

Since the prophecy clearly stated that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign... What was exacted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path." and the unstained tower is the white tower...which was mentioned in the Dark prophecy too ...  ... oh crap!  He's burning a path to Tar Valon!  Guess I better hie my Aes Sedai butt over there and check it out.

 

If Moraine wanted to let Rand have some space, but be available when she was needed, it would be a lot simpler to have Lan track Ingtar's party.  Moraine spent the better part of the last 2 decades trying to track down Rand, loses him twice, (once on the way to Camelyn, and a second, much shorter time, after the battle at the EotW,) and she suddenly decides she's going to trust to ancient prophecy to tell her where he's going to show up?  If that was the case, why didn't she just set up shop at the stone of Tear, and hire a few hundred eye's and ears to let her know if they ever see a strange young man climbing the walls, or if anyone calling themselves the people of the Dragon show up some day?  Why not just sit back and wait for him to come to her?

 

Simply, Moraine's actions don't fit her normal MO, she wouldn't normally let Rand go without a good way to keep track of him, yet this is apparently what she did.  She seemed entirely lukewarm about the importance that Verin put on Toman head, and then suddenly decides two days later to go check it out without telling anyone, apparently not even Siuan, where she is going?  Why am I the only one who thinks this is strange?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why would she cut him loose and then try and track his next reappearance by means of ancient an easily misinterpreted prophecy, coupled with a dark prophecy that they were not even sure was prophecy.

 

For the reason she told Siuan that she was cutting him loose, back at the start.

 

TGH ch 5 (Keep in mind, this conversation is before Moiraine could have had any "alone time" with Verin, or the escape of Fain and finding of the Dark Prophecy)

 

"I have purposely let him [al'Thor] think I no longer have any interest in him, that he may go where he pleases for all of me."  She raised her hands as the Amyrlin opened her mouth.  "It was necessary, Siuan.  Rand al'Thor was raised in the Two Rivers, where Manetheren's stubborn blood flows in every vein, and his own blood is like rock beside clay compared to Manetheren's.  He must be handled gently, or he will bolt in any direction but the one we want.

 

She decided and began this course of action BEFORE VERIN GOT TO FAL DARA.  No matter where Rand went, she was going to give him some space.  She thought, at the time, that he would go to Illian, and she planned to let him go, and then meet up with him later.

 

From later in the very same conversation:

 

"I cannot travel with him ... He must be let off the leash for a time.  There is no help for it.

 

Of course, then the Horn was stolen, and Rand went with Mat after it and the dagger.  So now, Moiraine no longer knew exactly where he would end up ... but she still knew she couldn't go with him.  How could she find out where he would show up?  In a world with accurate prophecy, how could she find where the most prophecied about man in the world would be ....

 

Hmmmm ....

 

Moiraine was just beginning to understand that she was not in control of events ... so she went looking for instructions, since she lives in a world with demonstrably accurate prophecies.  When what she found the location she needed, in a prophecy that matched (much more closely than your attempt at a counter-example) the immediate situation (ie events coming to a head at Falme), she went to the center of the action.

 

In fact, lets deal with that counter-example:

 

Since the prophecy clearly stated that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign... What was exacted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path." and the unstained tower is the white tower...which was mentioned in the Dark prophecy too ...  ... oh crap!  He's burning a path to Tar Valon!  Guess I better hie my Aes Sedai butt over there and check it out.

 

Since it is extraordinarily unlikely that the White Tower would break and bend knee before the real Dragon proclaimed himself, Toman Head came first.

 

Its just that simple.

 

If Moraine wanted to let Rand have some space, but be available when she was needed, it would be a lot simpler to have Lan track Ingtar's party.

 

Yeah, well, considering what actually happened, its a good thing she didn't use your plan.  I'm not sure how Lan could have tracked them through the Portal Stone ...

 

Moraine spent the better part of the last 2 decades trying to track down Rand, loses him twice, (once on the way to Camelyn, and a second, much shorter time, after the battle at the EotW,) and she suddenly decides she's going to trust to ancient prophecy to tell her where he's going to show up?

 

Now that the events which were prophecied about have begun?  Sure.  Plus, Rand is ta'veren now ... much easier to find, even if through nothing other than his effect on events.  And she knows exactly who she's looking for, by name, description, etc.  No, her two decades of searching before this do not in any way compare with the decision she faced at that time.

 

If that was the case, why didn't she just set up shop at the stone of Tear, and hire a few hundred eye's and ears to let her know if they ever see a strange young man climbing the walls, or if anyone calling themselves the people of the Dragon show up some day?  Why not just sit back and wait for him to come to her?

 

Because she was trying to choose the middle course.  Give him his space now, but once he was known to the world, be there for him.  So, where would he proclaim himself to the world?  "Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself"

 

Jordan went out of his way to give Moiraine her own special chapter, right in the middle of one of the best story arcs he's written, just to make sure that we see Moiraine get that information and connect it to Toman Head.  While Verin is half a continent away.  What more do you want!?

 

Why am I the only one who thinks this is strange?

 

Because you're you, cloggy.  For some reason, you really, really enjoy taking things that are very simple, and trying to make them as complicated as possible, when they're not.  Its your own special niche.

[cloglord]

For the reason she told Siuan that she was cutting him loose, back at the start.

 

TGH ch 5 (Keep in mind, this conversation is before Moiraine could have had any "alone time" with Verin, or the escape of Fain and finding of the Dark Prophecy)

 

Quote

"I have purposely let him [al'Thor] think I no longer have any interest in him, that he may go where he pleases for all of me."  She raised her hands as the Amyrlin opened her mouth.  "It was necessary, Siuan.  Rand al'Thor was raised in the Two Rivers, where Manetheren's stubborn blood flows in every vein, and his own blood is like rock beside clay compared to Manetheren's.  He must be handled gently, or he will bolt in any direction but the one we want.

 

This makes my point for me.  She puposely "let him think" that she wasn't interested.  It is a purposeful attempt at misdirecting Rand into thinking something not true, Moraine is VERY interested in where he will go.  Later on in that quote she says that he must be handled gently, this implies that she intends to cintinue "handling," him.  Something that she would be entirely unable to do if she doesn't know where he is or where he is headed.

 

She decided and began this course of action BEFORE VERIN GOT TO FAL DARA.  No matter where Rand went, she was going to give him some space.  She thought, at the time, that he would go to Illian, and she planned to let him go, and then meet up with him later.

 

From later in the very same conversation:

 

Quote

"I cannot travel with him ... He must be let off the leash for a time.  There is no help for it.

 

I never suggested that VERIN COMPELLED ANYONE INTO GIVING RAND SOME SPACE.  I suggested that Verin sent Moraine away to give Verin some space, and that in the act of doing so, Moraine said something that gave Verin the ability to directly claim Moraine sent her, while providing a reason, the forgetfulness side effect of Verin's weave, for Moraine to be able to truthfully deny it.  Further, the example you cite, is from a much different scenario than the one that existed at the time that Moraine left for Kandor.  In the conversation you note, Moraine also mentions that she was going to induce Mat to carry the Horn, and that because of the friendship between the boys she would be reasonably well ensured that where Mat went, Rand would also go.  That is a far different scenario than sending Rand on a chase to God only knows where after one of the foulest darkfriends ever to walk Randland.  I'll say it once again to be clear, I don't think that Verin compelled Moraine into giving Rand some personal space, I think that she did it to give herself some alone time with Rand, without Moraine trying "gently handle" things from afar.

 

Of course, then the Horn was stolen, and Rand went with Mat after it and the dagger.  So now, Moiraine no longer knew exactly where he would end up ... but she still knew she couldn't go with him.  How could she find out where he would show up?  In a world with accurate prophecy, how could she find where the most prophecied about man in the world would be ....

 

My point, and I don't think its a bad one, is that there were much easier ways of tracking Rand than to resort to prophetic navigation.  Escpecially given her 20 year long experience attempting to do much the same thing.  Yet what does she do?  she makes sure that he has completely new clothing to prevent  anyone, herself included presumably, from tracking him at all.  (I say Moraine hadn't put afinder on Rand, because she obviously was not tracking him to Falme using a finder whilst Rand was flickering through portal stone worlds for 4 months.)  Rand doesn't just leave, he is SENT completely out of Moraine and Siuan's control.  So then , all on the same day the two groups leave Fal Dara heading in roughly opposite directions.  For 4 days Verin and Moraine travel with the Aes SEdai group while for 4 days Rand & Co. zigzag across the map, every morning going NE towards the blight for a while, then turning South.  On this fourth day Moraine up and disappears, followed closely by Liandrin, and then Verin similarly leaves mysteriously without her warder.  3 days after leaving the other Aes Sedai, without the benefit of her warder to help track, Verin finds the group that has been moving in an unpredicatable pattern away from her for the last week.  It took her 3 days to catch up, doesn't sound like she had to look too hard does it?  Verin had a plan, she knew how to find the boys, and it is at this point, when Moraine is on her little trip to middle of nowhere, that Verin is telling the lie that gives this thread its name.  There is more to this period of time than meets the eye.

 

Quote

Since the prophecy clearly stated that "The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign... What was exacted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path." and the unstained tower is the white tower...which was mentioned in the Dark prophecy too ...  ... oh crap!  He's burning a path to Tar Valon!  Guess I better hie my Aes Sedai butt over there and check it out.

 

Since it is extraordinarily unlikely that the White Tower would break and bend knee before the real Dragon proclaimed himself, Toman Head came first.

 

Its just that simple.

 

I'll defend.  The above prophecy from the  Karaethon prophecy does not say that the tower would break and bend knee to the dragon reborn, it says it would kneel to the forgotten sign.  Let me post the entirety of that passage.

 

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.

The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.

Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.

What was exacted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.

Order burns to clear his path"

 

And here is the passage from the dark prophecy.

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

Okay so you put the two together, and it would seem to indicate that Lanfear is looking for Rand and that in some manner this search will cause the white tower to kneel.  If you cross reference the karaethon prophecy, we know that the tower is destined to break and kneel, and that it might be connected to a serpent in the bosom, and that somehow this is connected to some great destruction that will follow along Rand's path.  It would be pretty easy to predict a showdown over Rand at Tar Valon, I would submit, just as easy as predicting a proclamation over Toman Head from one mention of the word "watcher's"  My point is that translating and correctly interpeting prophecy is not something that is easy, in fact Moraine has on at least one occasion that I can recall grossly misinterpreted the very prophecies she has been faithfully studying for the past 20 years.  In fact, in my book, Verin is the only character that I would give top marks for correct prophecy interpretation in the whole series.  She predicted Toman Head, she used her knowledge of prophecy to correctly guess that one of the boys was TDR, and she has even dropped little jewels like the hammer/wolfking reference clear back in book four.  Navigation by means of prophecy is something that ONLY verin has shown to be effective, it would not have been so easy, that Moraine would have normally relied on it to tell her where the savior of the world might end up next.

 

Yeah, well, considering what actually happened, its a good thing she didn't use your plan.  I'm not sure how Lan could have tracked them through the Portal Stone ...

 

yeah, because Moraine predicted that too? 

 

"And the Lord of the Morning shall reach forth his hand to the pillar of many flickerings, and he shall spend a number of fortnights four times four's own square root in the traveling to the head of Toman."

 

Better not send Lan, RJ let Moraine read that chapter before she decided that 3,000 year old poetry was her best chance of tracking the kid she send with 20 other dudes and an Ogier.

 

Now that the events which were prophecied about have begun?  Sure.  Plus, Rand is ta'veren now ... much easier to find, even if through nothing other than his effect on events.  And she knows exactly who she's looking for, by name, description, etc.

 

That's why the forsaken, who had all the same info I might add, found him so easily, ganged up on him in Falme, and killed him at the end of the second book....oh wait that didn't happen ::)

 

Because you're you, cloggy.  For some reason, you really, really enjoy taking things that are very simple, and trying to make them as complicated as possible, when they're not.  Its your own special niche.

 

While I don't disagree with the comments you make about me, I do disagree that we are talking about something simple here.  The question of this lie has been discussed since book two, which was published a very long time ago.  If it were simple, this discussion would not be so enduring.  Yes, it can be explained by clever aes sedai justifications, but the directness with which the two women disagree seems too blatent for hair splitting to really satisfy. 

 

So, if it is so simple, let me ask a different but, I feel, related question.  How did Verin spend 4 days moving away from Rand, and then track him down only 3 days after she left the other Aes Sedai?

[Tyrell]

My problem with the idea of Verin Compelling Moriane with her own special brand of Compulsion is simple. What was moriane dooing for the considerable ammount of time it took Verin to weave it? If I were Moriane I would atleast have asked Verin what the heck she was dooing and if I got some silly elusive answer would have made her stop and raised some sorta alarm. It just doesn't sit right with me that Moriane would allow anyone to lay any strange weave on her and I don't believe that Verin could overpower Moriane and do it regardless.

[cloglord]

My problem with the idea of Verin Compelling Moriane with her own special brand of Compulsion is simple. What was moriane dooing for the considerable ammount of time it took Verin to weave it? If I were Moriane I would atleast have asked Verin what the heck she was dooing and if I got some silly elusive answer would have made her stop and raised some sorta alarm. It just doesn't sit right with me that Moriane would allow anyone to lay any strange weave on her and I don't believe that Verin could overpower Moriane and do it regardless.

 

This is fairly simple to explain.  If you read the section of PoD prolouge where Verin uses this weave, Beldeine does in fact ask what Verin is doing to her.  Yet Beldeine does not struggle against it, or attempt to stop Verin in any way, It seems pretty apparent that once the weave has begun, it has a calming almost "doped up" effect on its subject.  Of course it could be that Beldeine doesn't struggle because she is exhausted and shielded, but there seems to be no indication of any sort of struggle.  Further, we know that Verin performed this same weave successfully at least 18 other times when dealing with the other captured Aes Sedai.  Yet not once is an alarm raised to the wise ones about Verin's actions.  We simply don't know enough about the weave to definatively state how it works, but we can make some judgements on its effectiveness based on Verin's known success record.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It is a purposeful attempt at misdirecting Rand into thinking something not true, Moraine is VERY interested in where he will go.  Later on in that quote she says that he must be handled gently, this implies that she intends to cintinue "handling," him.  Something that she would be entirely unable to do if she doesn't know where he is or where he is headed.

 

Which is why she went looking for information.  And when she went looking for that information, she found it, and found out where he would be.  We've been over this.

 

I suggested that Verin sent Moraine away to give Verin some space, and that in the act of doing so, Moraine said something that gave Verin the ability to directly claim Moraine sent her, while providing a reason, the forgetfulness side effect of Verin's weave, for Moraine to be able to truthfully deny it.

 

But Moiraine had already decided to go away, in order to give Rand space, which means that Verin didn't need to send Moiraine away to give herself space, because the space was already there.

 

I'll say it once again to be clear, I don't think that Verin compelled Moraine into giving Rand some personal space, I think that she did it to give herself some alone time with Rand, without Moraine trying "gently handle" things from afar.

 

But she didn't need to, since Moiraine was already leaving.

 

My point, and I don't think its a bad one, is that there were much easier ways of tracking Rand than to resort to prophetic navigation. Escpecially given her 20 year long experience attempting to do much the same thing.

 

Well, despite you not thinking its a bad one, it is.  Moiraine already knew how easy it was to lose Rand by "tracking" him ... it had already happened to her and Lan.  But now, they were getting into specific events that were prophesied, and Rand was ta'veren.  Neither of which was the case during the 20 years she was tracking baby whats-his-name.  So, her "20 year long experience" was not "much the same thing" at all.

 

Okay so you put the two together, and it would seem to indicate that Lanfear is looking for Rand and that in some manner this search will cause the white tower to kneel.

 

Actually, as you pointed out, it doesn't say anything about Rand specifically, it just talks about "the forgotten sign".

 

Where are the "five ride forth" prophecy says that "Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself"

 

So, what she actually did made much more sense.

 

That's why the forsaken, who had all the same info I might add, found him so easily, ganged up on him in Falme, and killed him at the end of the second book....oh wait that didn't happen

 

Why didn't the Forsaken gang up on him any of the 50 times they could have?  Because the Forsaken are stupid, thats why.  All of the Forsaken who were actually looking for him found him all the time.  They were just too stupid to kill him when they did.

 

Yes, it can be explained by clever aes sedai justifications, but the directness with which the two women disagree seems too blatent for hair splitting to really satisfy.

 

Not to me.  Clever Aes Sedai justifications are so common as to be proverbial, and Verin has repeatedly shown her ability to play along the most extreme lines of the Oaths.

 

So, if it is so simple, let me ask a different but, I feel, related question.  How did Verin spend 4 days moving away from Rand, and then track him down only 3 days after she left the other Aes Sedai?

 

Because Verin, alone, drawing strength from her Warder (who was probably left behind just so that she could draw lots of strength from him without killing him), and using the Power to help her horse (possibly changing horses en route, can move much, much faster than Ingtar's party, which stopped a number of times to investigate different things.

 

Also, for those 4 days that Verin was moving "away", Ingtar's party was not moving in a straight line south, they were going back and forth following as Fain and the Myrddraal struggled for command of the Trollocs.

[Angel of Death]

Is it possible that she was sent by someone pretending to be Moiraine. Lanfear maybe. I don't no why someone would want to do that, but I see it as a possibility.

[Tyrell]

That is the most simple solution ;)

[cloglord]

Which is why she went looking for information.  And when she went looking for that information, she found it, and found out where he would be.  We've been over this.

 

That would work if she didn't know where he was.  But are you really suggesting that she decided to let him go, to God only knows where, actually sent him , and then went looking to try and figure out where he went?  You really think that she purposefully lost him just so she could she if she could find him using prophecy?  That doesn't make sense, not when she apparently had the means to track him in much more mundane ways.  20 shienariens and an ogier are pretty easy to track.

 

But Moiraine had already decided to go away, in order to give Rand space, which means that Verin didn't need to send Moiraine away to give herself space, because the space was already there.

 

No, she hadn't.  She had decided to "appear" to give him space so that he could be "handled gently."  She had also decided these things prior to the theft of the Horn and the new and (nearly) unpredictable course that Rand's journey would take in its pursuit.  To kind of turn things back around.  At that time before the Horn's theft, Moraine had also made plans to send the horn to Illian.  Did she keep that plan intact too?  Since she knew that Rand would be chasing the Horn of Valere, and would likely catch it due to his tavreeness, did Moraine go to study the Horn Prophecy to try and figure out where it would go?  Simply, Moraine made a plan, based on assumptions and situations that changed dramatically between the time that she made them and the time that you say she implemented them.     

 

Well, despite you not thinking its a bad one, it is.  Moiraine already knew how easy it was to lose Rand by "tracking" him ... it had already happened to her and Lan.  But now, they were getting into specific events that were prophesied, and Rand was ta'veren.

 

She lost him, to the extent that she did, because of a massive shadowspawn attack, during the night, in the 2nd most dangerous place in the known world.    A finder on the boys, on Ingtar, on Hurin, on any or all of the shienarien's would have given her a more reliable supernatural method of tracking than a 3,000 year old PNS (prophetic navigation system.)  Or, as I've said she could have just sent Lan to track them. If mine is a bad point, yours is worse.

 

"Okay so you put the two together, and it would seem to indicate that Lanfear is looking for Rand and that in some manner this search will cause the white tower to kneel."

 

Actually, as you pointed out, it doesn't say anything about Rand specifically, it just talks about "the forgotten sign".

 

Where are the "five ride forth" prophecy says that "Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself"

 

So, what she actually did made much more sense.

 

The Karaethon prophecy says that the tower will bend knee to the forgotten sign, the Dark prophecy seems to say that it will kneel to Lanfear, and there Lanfear is linked to Rand specifically as her "lost lover."  Also the stanza of Karaethon prophecy that I posted in its entirety goes on to say that "order burns to clear his path" (emphasis mine)  If i remember correctly from my middle school English classes, his is just as non-specific as himself.  Don't forget Bal'azamon made his first world-wide appearance above Toman Head as well, maybe the "five ride forth" prophecy is about him?

 

All of the Forsaken who were actually looking for him found him all the time.  They were just too stupid to kill him when they did.

 

No actually they didn't.  Maybe you remember a little book called TDR?  How about Ravhin's frustration when he couldn't find Rand after he went to the waste?  How about WH when Osangar and Demandred get yelled at for not being able to keep track of Rand, or KoD's when they are all nashing their teeth at the fact that no one can seem to find Rand.  Don't you think that the forsaken have all the same prophecies at their disposal that Moraine did at Vadene's house?

 

Not to me.  Clever Aes Sedai justifications are so common as to be proverbial, and Verin has repeatedly shown her ability to play along the most extreme lines of the Oaths.

 

...and then risk being caught in her deception by the simple expedient of someone asking Moraine why she sent Verin...if the BA were that transparent they would have all been caught centuries ago.  Verin could have, (and would have,) skirted the truth in a manner that would have been much harder to refute.

 

Because Verin, alone, drawing strength from her Warder (who was probably left behind just so that she could draw lots of strength from him without killing him), and using the Power to help her horse (possibly changing horses en route, can move much, much faster than Ingtar's party, which stopped a number of times to investigate different things.

 

Also, for those 4 days that Verin was moving "away", Ingtar's party was not moving in a straight line south, they were going back and forth following as Fain and the Myrddraal struggled for command of the Trollocs.

 

Okay, lets just say, for the sake of argument that Ingtar's party only managed to go 1/2 as fast as Verin's group, they would still functionally be 6 days apart. Leaving out the fact that Ingtar and Co., didn't stop to let Verin catch up, Verin made it in 3 days.  Let's say that she did as you suggest and borrowed strength and bought horses and made the trip in half the time it would take under normalk circumstances, it still doesn't explain how she found them.  It isn't like she was 6 days from Fal Dara and made the trip in 3, she was 6 days from a moving group and she didn't know where they were or where they were going.