Other Creations

[dawntreader3]

Ok, a question here:

 

If Osan'gar created the trollocs and the mirrdrahal (Sp?), who made the grey men?

 

Also, he Ogier are not human but they are not evil. Who made them? Was it the same Creator as made men?

[dawntreader3]

OOps...I also was wondering about who made the Gholam?

[Jedimuppet]

OOps...I also was wondering about who made the Gholam?

 

Aginor was responsible for all the shadowspan. He was the geneticist of the bunch.

 

Ogier are from a portal stone world, I think. Hence the whole book of translation debate.

J

[Mardragon]

I don't think the grey men were made by Aginor as they started off human. However since they are souless, I guess they would qualify as a type of shadowspawn.

 

I also suspect that maybe the dark one had a direct hand in creating the myrdraal. True they are the offspring of trollocs (thus indirectly a creation of Aginor) but they appear to have aspects that are neither of their trolloc or human forebears... i.e. eyelessness, acidic blood, 'shadow travelling' and of course existing out of phase (i.e. their cloaks are not affected by the wind.) And then there is the ultimate souped-up myrdraal, Shadar Haran with all his tricks.

 

Also, isn't it strange that if they are all a 'genetic regression (or progression depending on how you look at it) to their human stock' that the regression took the same form and they all look pretty much alike? This could of course just be the result of the mix of the Dark one's so called 'True power' in the trolloc genetic manipulation, but you really get the impression that they were designed the way they are, especially when you consider Shadar Haran.

[Jedimuppet]

I don't think the grey men were made by Aginor as they started off human. However since they are souless' date=' I guess they would qualify as a type of shadowspawn.

 

I also suspect that maybe the dark one had a direct hand in creating the myrdraal. True they are the offspring of trollocs (thus indirectly a creation of Aginor) but they appear to have aspects that are neither of their trolloc or human forebears... i.e. eyelessness, acidic blood, 'shadow travelling' and of course existing out of phase (i.e. their cloaks are not affected by the wind.) And then there is the ultimate souped-up myrdraal, Shadar Haran with all his tricks.

 

Also, isn't it strange that if they are all a 'genetic regression (or progression depending on how you look at it) to their human stock' that the regression took the same form and they all look pretty much alike? This could of course just be the result of the mix of the Dark one's so called 'True power' in the trolloc genetic manipulation, but you really get the impression that they were designed the way they are, especially when you consider Shadar Haran.[/quote']

 

Did you read the BWB? It's pretty explicit...

J

[Luckers]

I suspect that Myrrdraal are what occur when the human gene for channeling is present in a trolloc baby. As for Grey Men, their souls are taken by the Dark One, that is all... each one, they are not born that way. So the soulless you see in the books were all born human in recent times, became darkfriends and finally sacrificed their soul in service of the dark one. Lan explains it at some point.

 

Additionally, Aginor made many things, not all of them useful. Those that survive now live in the Blight. Worms are one of those creatures.

[Jeppit Groccin]

I believe the Grolms were also created by Aginor, or at least by the Forsaken in general.

 

Only 6 were ever made, though, because they were considered too dangerous to have a lot of them running around.

 

Personally, I agree with them. I wouldn't want a whole crop of guys running around who can slip through 2-inch cracks in a wall, can't be touched by the Power, and don't bleed.

[Inara]

you ere confusing grolms (big three eyed frogs from seanchan) with gholams, and yes, ishy made the lot of them, one of the forsaken winges about that at one stage, about it being in a stasis box or something, and what a shame it wasnt lost in the breaking

[Luckers]

Actually Aginor made the lot of them, and the winger was Graendal, but she said merely that she had barely survived an encounter with one. The stasis box comment was mats, and was in fact told to him by Birgitte.

 

The Seanchan animals are not made by Aginor though, they were found in portal worlds, and brough back here in an effort to have things that can go toe to toe with a trolloc.

[Jeppit Groccin]

my mistake, similar names like that get mixed up once they enter my head. Yes, I meant Gholams.

[Mardragon]

Did you read the BWB? It's pretty explicit...

J

 

I don't know what 'BWB' stands for. None of the novels I've seen have those initials (although I might have missed one as their are 10 of them! :? ) Is it one of the Wheel of time reference books?

 

In what way is the BWB explicit? Concerning what I said about the grey men, Myrdraal or Shadar Haran or all of the above?

 

As far as the books are concerned, the only thing we know for certain concerning shadowspawn is that they were created by the forsaken, Aginor being the main perpetrator (although there may have been others involved too). And all we know for certain about Myrrdraal is that they are the offspring of trollocs where human DNA has re-established itself. That doesn't mean the Dark One didn't influence their creation.

[Jedimuppet]

Did you read the BWB? It's pretty explicit...

J

 

I don't know what 'BWB' stands for. None of the novels I've seen have those initials (although I might have missed one as their are 10 of them! :? ) Is it one of the Wheel of time reference books?

 

In what way is the BWB explicit? Concerning what I said about the grey men' date=' Myrdraal or Shadar Haran or all of the above?

 

As far as the books are concerned, the only thing we know for certain concerning shadowspawn is that they were created by the forsaken, Aginor being the main perpetrator (although there may have been others involved too). And all we know for certain about Myrrdraal is that they are the offspring of trollocs where human DNA has re-established itself. That doesn't mean the Dark One didn't influence their creation.[/quote']

 

The Big White Book (world of the wheel of time, or something like that) explicitly deals with the age of legends right before the war of shadow, and describes all of the shadowspawn and how they were created. It particularly talks about how fades and trollocs are related, and how fades saved trollocs from being completely useless by their ability to link with them.

J

[Luckers]

BWB is the World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, a book by Teresa Patterson with the collaboration of Robert Jordan, which is a sort of compendium of information, up to date with, i believe, the end of Crown of Swords. Most of what it said on Shadoespawn has been said in these thread, though.

[Mardragon]

OK cheers for that guys.

 

A bit off topic I know but does the book cover much not included in the novels? I.e. is it worth a purchase or does it pretty much reiterate what's already been covered?

[Kadere]

It's basically a glossary of everything you've learned through A Crown of Swords in a more managable form. It's easier to find things. It does add some new information about things in the books that are not covered, and gives a full description of all the wars prior to the books.

 

Now you can get it pretty cheap in paperback, if you're a big fan of the series it's a worthy addition.

[elmindreda]

thanks that should be mention in the list of books at the begining of a book is there any others?

[Kadere]

Not that I'm aware of. There's the 11 main sequence, the proluge book, and the BWB. There will be an Encyclopedia to be released after the series is complete, and two more proluges, along with A Memory of Light. encyclopedia-wot.org actually has a list of all the merchandise avalible, and I believe wotmania.com probably does to.

[Musenge]

I'd love to see some of the other shadowspawn show up in the last book. In EOTW when they were in the blight Lan kept talking about creatures and how everything they had seen wasn't as bad as things ahead. I wanna see those things ahead!

 

I wonder if Worms are dragons? I remember one of the forsaken saying they'll never hatch now or something like that but in other fantasy Dragons are always related to worms.

[Luckers]

The Wheel of Time is High Fantasy... you arn't going to find elves or dwarves or real Dragons in it... thats mroe a child of sword and sorcery fantasy.

[dimmu666]

sup homies, i was wondering after reading that question about the animals and creatures in the book.

What exactly defines a shadowspawn? does the DO directly/indirectly control them?

 

Those Grolm things which were in that portal world when Rand met Selene and in later books the Seanchean use them in the army. Are they shadowspawn? well they could be can't they if the DO can control them?

What about the torm, raken, lopar, elephant things etc... if they're all in Seanchan...does that mean there are no shadowspawn in seanchan but only weird animals? No trollocs/fades in Seanchan? We know in the blight there are totally messed up things like the worms etc but wouldn't they be like those weird animals rather than shadowspawn? Or is it anything created by Aginor is defined as shadowspawn?

[rochaid]

the weird seanchan animals were brought to the world through portal stones to help combat trolloocs and such.shadowspawn seems to be anyhting created by the shadow for the shadow.in seanchan there is a blight but it is a lesser blight...all shadowspawn there were eraticated...but the blight there is still dangerous,the rotting,the plants etc means ur still likely to die quicker there that other lands

[Rational_Solutions]

Grey Men are human. It has been stated by Moirane in TDR that they have gone so far over to the shadow that they gave up thier wouls to become the shadows assasin. So Grey Men aren't by products of biological experiments.

 

Also, Ogier arn't from this world. I belive that they jump from world to world through thier book of translation, I might be wrong but i belive, that they move from one world as soon as the world seems to be about to end......

[keith_rogers_irl]

"I don't think the grey men were made by Aginor as they started off human. However since they are souless, I guess they would qualify as a type of shadowspawn. "

 

I always thought that the grey men were men that were once held by a cour'souvra but it was broken. Moggy mentioned that once the mind trap breaks you're a prisoner in your own body and you do whatever your told and stuff... I don't know, just always assumed that's what they were

:P

[Achaemenid]

The Ogiers are indeed the only Race besides Humans in WOT . shadowspawn ,trollocs , ... are only creatures . i must confess that i like the series this way without so many races and creatures . i think other authors just are trapping themselves in these matters to cover their lack of imagination.

[algspkr]

The nym, the Green Man's people, were created during the Age of Legends to help with farming, and maybe other stuff using the same techniques as those used to create the shadowspan, but they were created to be good rather than evil, like shadowspawn they cannot enter a gateway.

 

I believe that shadowspawn were made with the True Power in addition to or instead of the One Power.