Masking

[Tyrell]

I assume he meant "Is slicing a reversed weave any different to slicing a weave you can see?" and I don't see why it shouldn't be, although depending on how skillfull and dexterous the weaver is then they should be able to avoid your slicing weaves, since you can't actually see what you're slicing at.

[elmis]

Not sure if this means anything, but from one of the Forsakens POV during a meeting. Moridin flings a rat out in the air and burns it. And the Forsaken guy thinks something like this (paraphrasing as I don't have the book infront of me).

 

"He felt nothing, it had to be the True Source".

 

There is no reason for Moridin going there, full of Saidin, masking his ability and weaving a reversed weave to burn the rat, so it probably means nothing, but it lends to the idea that a channeler can feel channeling regardless of masking and reversing.

 

To me the whole subject is just too convoluted (sp?). You get hints that they're able sense it, and in my opinion, hints that you're not able to sense it at all.

 

On another note, can you read the residues of a reversed weave?

[Briwan Dragain]

Wow, I really wish I would have seen this sooner so I didn't have to read through five pages before commenting, haha.

 

Okay. Sensing a reversed weave's residue? I don't think that's possible, seeing as it's.. um.. invisible. Or supposed to be.

 

Ahhhh, there's so much I want to say and I can't think. Okay. I don't think that slicing a reversed weave is any different to slicing a weave that you can't see. I mean, think of Lanfear when she cut up Rand's attacks on her in the stone. Think of any Red fighting off a man that can channel. I know saidar and saidin are different, but I think the principles there are the same.

 

So far as Graendal and the Verin circle bit. Um, maybe I'm wrong but I thought (strength stuff aside) fighting a circle was a whole different ball game then fighting a singular person. You have to take into account that the three women are linked.. and that the power between them doesn't add, right, but it.. melds. So that all three of them are holding the power as one person.. but also as three. It's pretty complicated, I think, and not so easily bested even if you're a whole lot stronger than the circle you're up against.

 

Somewhere it's mentioned (and I apologize for this post being purely memory and speculation) that even a circle of the weakest Aes Sedai would be quite the formidable force. Or something to that effect. So, while fighting a circle.. it may be one person channeling.. but you still got three people to fight, in essence.

 

Could be wrong.. and I haven't read that battle in a bit, so that's my bad if I'm saying stuff that's wildly off.

 

ANYWAY, as to the real topic here... can you feel someone's weaves if they're reversed and inverted? Well, what about when Egwene was doing the cuendillar chain in... 10, right? That's the end of 10. Anyway, I thought she was inverted and reversed and they only found her because she was pointed out to them.

 

I think the reason that Verin handled herself well (and by well I mean survived, I like the bit about Graendal leaving because something bigger was on the way) was because she's not your average Brown.. and she's had some decent training when it comes to defense and the Power. But, also, everyone was paying a LOT of attention there (or should have been if they were smart) so you see someone and you know you have a fight if you don't know who they are.

 

Thusly, I'm saying that it's possible that Verin saw Graendal.. and knew she probably had something nasty coming at her, so she went back to her training. Aes Sedai have some faults, but I think they have to have SOME method of fighting things they can't see, else they would be terrible against a man that could channel.

 

If you know something is coming, or you're paying a lot of attention to the area, I think we can assume that you can know something is there (if it is, of course) and Aes Sedai or Asha'man should be able to defend against it due to training at either Tower. Because you can't really see or feel a man or woman channeling if you're the opposite. I mean, men can.. but we're talking women. SO, because of the problem with men.. I think Reds, at least, have some training here. And probably Greens.. in fighting against invisible weaves and I don't see it being that different.

 

Also, I think it's mostly just the bad boys 'n girls that know how to reverse their weaves.

 

Final point, though. Graendal and the rest of the Forsaken are pretty powerful, and they're old, and they know a lot. But, as Moghedian especially points out, they're still human. And as humans, they do make mistakes.. and they do have fears and weaknesses.. in personality and channeling. Graendal's strength is compulsion, not that she doesn't have others.. I'm just saying, it's difficult to say what else she is good with because we don't get that many POVs from the Forsaken.

 

Anyway, this post is long and more must be said.. so I'll see what you guys think and I'll see if I can find examples or think up more stuff to back up my claims.. since this is mostly memory and speculation.

[Swigaro]

Just to muddy the waters a bit...

 

There may not be a scene where it is shown difinitively that channeling can be detected when one is masking and reversing, but there is a scene that, in my opinion, proves the oppisite.  I don't have the books in front of me for a complete quote, but when Messana comes to Alviarin, disguised, right before she gets herself punished, she is clearly channeling (ie. putting out the lights, ect.) and Alviarin says something like, "It was as if she wasn't able to channel at all." 

 

I always read the Verin and Alivia scenes at shadar logoth to suggest that Verin's assumptions were based on context, not absolute proof, i.e. "If someone shows up and I don't immediately recognize them, they must be forsaken.  Kill them and ask questions later."

[elmis]

Hah, I'd almost forgotten about this thread, that's a great example Swigaro! :)

 

Now all that remains is to find out if she used the True Source or the One Source when she came to Alviarin. Anyone remember any other examples?

[Lord_Naryb]

I think she was using the One Power because I believe at this time that the TP was limited to Moridin's exclusive use. And even if not the Forsaken didn't like using the TP if they didn't have too.

[Swigaro]

Indeed.  It is safe to assume that she was channeling the one power, as by this point the true power is all Moridin's.  By what was observed in that sceene, we can assume that Messana was both masking and reversing.  While it would make sense to assume that the forsaken at the battle of Shadar Logoth were doing the same, it really isn't clear.  We know that many of them were reversing, several of them said as much.  We do not, however know that they were masking the ability as well.  It strikes me as criminally stupid for them to neglect this defense, but how many other examples do we have of the forsaken taking it for granted that the channelers of this age are credible threats. 

[Briwan Dragain]

Yeah, she was probably just using the One Power. I agree with Swigaro, though, on both points.

 

I think that they were probably masking the ability, except for Aran'Gar of course because we have proof the opposite. Or perhaps that proves that none of them were? No, that's doubtful. Anycase, the Asha'man were still kinda new I suppose and not really seen in large force except to the Seanchan, Osan'Gar and the Aiel.. other than that, rumors.

 

Truth is, I'm fairly certain that none of the Forsaken really took any of these kids as threats.. not even Rand, though none were really willing to go at him alone. Of course, that's changed in a lot of regards.. but even so...

[Swigaro]

Here is another question, as I don't have easy access to my books right now.  Did Egwene, Elayne Nynaeve, and Avihenda pass the making weave on to the Salidar sisters (and thus on to the Tower)?  If not, is it possible that the rest of the forsaken are not capable of the weave?  Is it more of a Tallent that the four of theme just happen to have?  Does it require a specific type of ability that is relatively uncommon, like the ability to make Cuendillar? We know that Moghidian and Messanna can use the weave, but then, they are also the only Female forsaken to hide themselves (long term) among channelers.  Lanfear certainly made appearances in the tower.  This could suggest that she was also capable.  Things get a bit less clear for the men, as, if I am remembering correctly, there is no passive method to detect channeling ability in men (by a man or a woman) where a female channeler can simply sense the ability (if it is not masked) in another women.  Just some thoughts...

[elmis]

I don't have a source for this information right now, but I remember reading that reversing a weave is not something that the good guys know about, few even knew how to do it during the AoL. Knowing the Forsaken and their mistrust of each other it's not certain that they all know it either, they don't seem like a sharing bunch. Demandred knows how to do it, so does Lanfear, Graendal and apparently Mesaana, given the tower scene. Those are the only ones I can remember (of the top of my head) that we've seen use it.

[DemandredFO]

I'm just curious, is it because the Foresaken didn't invert their gateways that Callandor came calling or were they detected because of cadsuane's Ter'angreal?

[Swigaro]

Cadsuane's "Orniment" is another thing to consider.  Several of the forsaken, in their POV's state that they are Reversing their weaves.  We don't know for certain whether they are masking their ability to channel or not, or even if they are able to (if they are able to, they are fools for neglecting this).  If they actually are, it is still possible that Cadsuane's Ter'angreal can detect channeling whether the weave is reversed, the channeler masked or not. 

[wvlr]

Cadsuane's "Orniment" is another thing to consider.  Several of the forsaken, in their POV's state that they are Reversing their weaves.  We don't know for certain whether they are masking their ability to channel or not, or even if they are able to (if they are able to, they are fools for neglecting this).  If they actually are, it is still possible that Cadsuane's Ter'angreal can detect channeling whether the weave is reversed, the channeler masked or not. 

 

From the Semi incident in KoD, it appears that both Caddy's and Ny's jewelery are not fooled by masking and inverted/reversed weaves.

 

Quote KoD US HB pg 587:

 

"One of them is channeling,"...Ny..."I can't see anything, so she's masked her ability and inverted the weave---and I wonder how the Seanchan learned that!---but she's channeling.  Only one; there isn't enough for it to be two."  Her ter'angreal could not tell whether it was sadin or saidar being channeled, but it was unlikely to be a man.

 

[The Lost One]

KOD spoiler.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

In KOD one of the sisters comes up with a weave that can tell when a man is channeling.  Based on this and..... 

 

Since we know it is possible for items (Nyn and Cads jewelry) to detect reversed and/or inverted weaves as indicated earlier....

 

Do you think it would be possible for the Aes Sedai to come up with a weave that would detect reversed and/or inverted weaves? 

 

I would think it would be possible.  Don't some of the Aes Sedai study new weaves to find out how to counter and/or improve them?

[Swigaro]

It is possible.  We don't have quite enough information though.  There are, essentially two types of ter'angrael; those that duplicate the effects of channeling (the balefire rod) and those that augment channeling (a well and perhaps a binding rod).  It seems to me that Cads detecting orniment aught to a duplicating ter'angreal, though we really don't know.  I agree with you Lost, it aught to be possible.  It would be interesting to see Elayne spend some time studying that orniment.  If she could figure out how it works, in addition to being able to make more, she might figure out the weave to detect masked channeling and reversed weaves as well.

[elmis]

I definitely think that's possible, and I also think that that weave is the one that lies at the base for Cadsuane and Nynaeve's special ter'angreal. Cadsuane also points around for the circles to strike out, during that chapter. She knows what direction saidin has been channeled, even if it is a reversed weave, as Demandred had made his gateway from.

 

In other words, you can fool the 'human senses', but not the power, be it in item form or a weave.

[Briwan Dragain]

Forgot about those ter'angreal. Ah, well, it happens. Good points, though, Swig and Lost. I think it's definitely possible, but it will probably be a bit before anyone figures it out going on how these kids are picking up things.

We'll see.