Masking

[Guest leebarr]

Now that AS can mask their abiety to channel and men can no longer tell if they are holding the power will this in anyway effect TG or even after how will things be differnt.

[Davian93]

The major difference is obvious. Battles between channelers will be that much more dangerous as they have a cloaking device in effect essentially.  Between masking one's abilities and reversing the weaves one can strike another channeler before they even realize they're being attacked.  As both sides know how to do it, I doubt it will affect TG all that much or the aftermath.  But it will make things interesting.

[Luckers]

The Light does not know how to reverse their weaves. They know inversion, the method of hiding weaves after they are already woven, but they don't know about reversion, the process of concealing weaves as they are being woven.

[dmanmiller34]

I think that inverting he weave take a bit more concious thought to do that weaveing a normal weave and thus would be too slow to apply to a battle scenario. I think that success in a channingling battle relies on 2 primary things. Strenth in the Power and how fast you can weave it. So in a battle anything that would slow down your weaveing would be a detriment. Also in the heat of the battle you would rely more on insinct and reflex to counter incoming flows in a one on one duel.

 

On another note I think that the Aes sedai warriors will be used primarily as ranged weapons i belive. (IE chuck fireballs and call down lightning.) I don't think that there will be too many one on one confrontations. They would be too vunerable to attack from an archer or just kitchen knife in the back.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its apparently not all its cracked up to be.  Graendal was masking her ability to channel and using reversed weaves at the Cleansing.  Given the description we have of those abilities, she should have been able to chop Verin and Verin's entire circle into tiny little pieces without them even being able to see, or sense, what was going on.

 

Yet ... "somehow" ... Verin was able to not only counter her, but drive her off ... although RJ cut away before we get anything resembling details ...

 

It always felt to me like RJ had written himself into a bit of a corner on that one, and so had to cut away with no explanation.  Its too bad I can't find anywhere that someone asked him about it.

 

That is one of the few truly dissapointing scenes in my mind ...

[dyring]

Well. abit odd I supose, but not impossible.

 

Maybe they, in the circle, was stronger than graendal(atleast at first, one of the circle died yes?), and verin have always been a tad special. Maybe she just barely managed to keep her off, loosing one of the circle as they where about to be defeated, and then one of the other circles came in that direktion.

Or maybe the blasts from the circle next to rand(the one with callandor, temporarily forgotten the name of the df sister leading it atm) started getting close and graendal fled.

 

(in general I agree its abit odd, but oh well ;)

 

//dyring

[Luckers]

Remember that even when channeling with reversed weaves the sensation of active channeling occurs. So, Verin and the others did not sense 'nothing' as you suggest. That being said, i also find it hard to believe that the Aes Sedai reacted so successfully.

[Wayhey]

Yet ... "somehow" ... Verin was able to not only counter her, but drive her off ... although RJ cut away before we get anything resembling details ...

 

It always felt to me like RJ had written himself into a bit of a corner on that one, and so had to cut away with no explanation.  Its too bad I can't find anywhere that someone asked him about it.

 

That is one of the few truly dissapointing scenes in my mind ...

 

Oh come on, now! Verin is a wily old bitch.  She figured out that either Mat, Perrin, or Rand must be the Dragon Reborn, remember?  Graendal on the other hand kills Asmodean so obviously that we can figure it out despite her leaving no evidence! 

[Tyrell]

You could still blindly wave about the weave used to cut weaves or throw up defences even if you didn't know what you were facing, or launch into an all out attack and hope the person with the reversed? weaves doesn't get a chance to go on the offensive.

 

I just read the scene and Verin has the initiative ie. she surprised Graendal, so Graendal didn't have the chance to cut her into tiny tiny pieces without her noticing and in being able to observe Graendal first was able to work out that she was one of the forsaken - who else has a colour changing dress and happens to be heading in Rand's direction - so she was prepared to face Graendal and whatever she could throw at her if the shield failed.

 

As I read it, Verin surprised Graendal, but was unable to shield her since she was already holding the power and you need to be considerably stronger than someone to shield them once they are holding the power. This doesn't say that Graendal with her Angreal is stronger than Verin and her circle, making Verin probably wouldn't be able to weave defences strong enough to repel Graendal, just that Verin and her circle wasn't so much stronger than Graendal that they would be able to shield her while she was holding the power.

 

*Phew*

 

The english language needs more pronouns, things can get way too confusing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Remember that even when channeling with reversed weaves the sensation of active channeling occurs. So, Verin and the others did not sense 'nothing' as you suggest. That being said, i also find it hard to believe that the Aes Sedai reacted so successfully.

 

Um ... where did you get that idea?

 

I'm genuinely curious, because as I understood it, the combination of reversing weaves and masking the ability to channel rendered the channeler completely undetectable.  That was the point of it, I thought ... which was what made the Forsaken's ineptitude as a whole so frustrating to me.

 

Verin's POV states that Verin knew she was being attacked ... but not how she knew.  It doesn't say she felt anything ... the only indications we get are that she couldn't see the weaves, but she still knew she was being attacked.

 

But even if there was a vague "something", some indication other than very quick logic, that indicated to Verin that she was under attack, I still don't see how she wins ...

 

First of all, I'm not sure at all that her circle should have been stronger than Graendal.  While Verin was above average in the Tower, that is a far cry from Forsaken strength, and Graendal is apparently above average for a female Forsaken.  Kumira is described as "relatively weak", even in Tower terms.  Shalon's strength is not described in detail, but it is certainly not stunning, probably roughly equal to Verin, possible slightly stronger.

 

Linking, as you well know, does not add the total strengths of everyone in the circle.  So, the Verin-circle was probably between 2 and 2.75 times Verin's normal strength.

 

Graendal would have been close to that with just her personal strength.  And at this point, she also has an angreal, which supposedly multiplies the amount of the Power a channeler can use several times.  Theres no way that 2 to 2.75 times Verin equals 3+ times Graendal.  Graendal was wearing it at the Forsaken coffee hour in WH ch 13.  I cannot believe she would leave it behind coming to this fight ...

 

So its like putting you in a room, blindfolded, with earplugs, and giving you a knife.  Its a pretty good knife, and you're not bad with it.

 

Then, in that nearly deaf, blindfolded state, someone shouts, just so you can barely hear them "I'm going to stab you!".  So, you know you're being attacked.  This person is an expert swordsman, with a top notch weapon.  Now, you're not bad with the knife, but you can't see when, where, or how the attacks will come.  Yet not only do you survive, you drive your attacker away.

 

I really just don't see it.

[Davian93]

I really just don't see it.

 

Yet it still happened.  So there must be more to it than we're reading.

[dyring]

Well, couldent find a reply to me there anyway, Still think that the most likely thing is Graendal has to flee after just having killed Kumira(and winning the fight the ofcourse), cause either the blastwaves from "the callandor circle" or some of the others walking about innterupts her before she can finish of the rest of them.

 

//dyring

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yet it still happened.  So there must be more to it than we're reading.

 

Weren't you the one who was just whining in another thread about how no one considers that RJ might possibly make mistakes?

 

LOL.

 

I'm glad to see that you're consistent in your inconsistency.

 

Well, couldent find a reply to me there anyway, Still think that the most likely thing is Graendal has to flee after just having killed Kumira(and winning the fight the ofcourse), cause either the blastwaves from "the callandor circle" or some of the others walking about innterupts her before she can finish of the rest of them.

 

Now, I hadn't considered that.  I kind of like the idea that she fled, not because she was defeated by Verin et al, but because someone else with much bigger guns was closing in, seeing that Verin's circle was in trouble (what with Kumira getting killed and all).  Verin's circle barely managing to stay alive until the cavalry closed in, and taking damage (Kumira's death) is much more believable.

[Davian93]

I'm glad to see that you're consistent in your inconsistency.

 

"Consistency is the defense of a small mind."

[Luckers]

Um ... where did you get that idea?

 

I'm genuinely curious, because as I understood it, the combination of reversing weaves and masking the ability to channel rendered the channeler completely undetectable.  That was the point of it, I thought ... which was what made the Forsaken's ineptitude as a whole so frustrating to me.

 

Cyndane is the most obvious example.

 

And just in case she proved to be what they called a wilder, Cyndane prepared a small prsent for her. A reversed web she would not even see until it was too late. Abruptly the light of saidar appeared around the woman but the ready ball of fire streaked from Cyndane's hand, small enough to excape detection.

 

Cyndane clearly expects that her web could be detetced.

 

Verin is the next most obvious.

 

she had no time for thought as the golden haired woman spun and began channeling. She could not see the weaves but she knew she was in a fight for her life.

 

Verin sensing the active channeling even though she cannot see the weaves.

It's quite clear. The woman spun and began channeling. Clear perception of the act of channeling sans the weaves.

 

Reversion hides the visual perception of the weaves, but not the feeling of active channeling.

 

First of all, I'm not sure at all that her circle should have been stronger than Graendal.  While Verin was above average in the Tower, that is a far cry from Forsaken strength, and Graendal is apparently above average for a female Forsaken.  Kumira is described as "relatively weak", even in Tower terms.  Shalon's strength is not described in detail, but it is certainly not stunning, probably roughly equal to Verin, possible slightly stronger.

 

Actually Verin makes clear that Shalon is stronger than she, In fact the mode of the thought implies that Shalon is conciderably stronger--though thats purely my position and not fact. What is fact is this.

 

She had been upset that she had not been the one to meld the weaves--as if a wilders strength mattered against and Aes Sedai's

 

This, by the way, is a follow on from Shalon's POV when she entered Far Madding and percieved that the Aes Sedai were establishing themselves based on strength.\\

 

To me, at least, it suggests that Shalon is a fair amount stronger than Verin.

 

The triple link including Shalon who is quite strong, and Verin who is realitviely strong and has an angreal and Kumira seems, to my mind, to be a match for Graendal and her 'relatively weak' angreal.

 

Linking, as you well know, does not add the total strengths of everyone in the circle.  So, the Verin-circle was probably between 2 and 2.75 times Verin's normal strength.

 

Graendal would have been close to that with just her personal strength.  And at this point, she also has an angreal, which supposedly multiplies the amount of the Power a channeler can use several times.  Theres no way that 2 to 2.75 times Verin equals 3+ times Graendal.  Graendal was wearing it at the Forsaken coffee hour in WH ch 13.  I cannot believe she would leave it behind coming to this fight ...

 

Well again, Verin has her own angreal, and Shalon is quite strong. But, furthermore, you are incorrect in your statement about the effect of angreals. Elayne gives Aviendha an angreal and says it will double her strength and states that it is quite a powerful angreal. Graendal's on the other hand is specifically stated as a very weak angreal. So no, Graendal wasn't at 3+ her strength. She was at maybe .75+ her strength.

 

And at that strength ptted against such a circle i do see a balance of power, or as is more likely, that Verin's circle was slightly stronger, but suffered through lack of knowledge.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Consistency is the defense of a small mind."

 

LOL ... you're going Eddings on me now?  C'mon Stragen ...

[Davian93]

LOL ... you're going Eddings on me now?  C'mon Stragen ...

 

Wow..now that's impressive(seriously with no sarcasm).  Someone actually recognized the reference.

[lou]

i dont know why that would impress you. many here actually read.

 

i dont know why this particular battle has everyone so baffled. in many of the battles in WoT, the forsaken should have the clear advantage of knowledge and power, yet how many have fallen to the untried farmboy. it must be the taveren luck. maybe that tips the balance in favor of rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Cyndane clearly expects that her web could be detetced.

 

Um ... Cyndane was throwing a fireball.  She didn't expect Alivia to sense her channeling, she expected Alivia to see the fireball.

 

Unless you're saying she expected Alivia to see (not sense) the actual web, and not just the effect of the web.  In which case Cyndane is contradicting everything we know about reversing a web.

 

Verin sensing the active channeling even though she cannot see the weaves.

It's quite clear. The woman spun and began channeling. Clear perception of the act of channeling sans the weaves.

 

See ... thats not quite so clear to me.  Verin knew she was channeling, because Verin knew the she could channel, and Verin knew that she had a reason too.  That conclusion always seemed like an exercise in rapid logic to me, not something Verin detected through her channeling sense.  "Wow, I just tried to shield this channeler and failed!  She's sure to counter-attack." 

 

It specifically does not say that Verin felt her channeling.

 

Is there any example where we know, unambiguously (as in it says it plainly), that someone felt someone else channeling reversed weaves?

 

Well again, Verin has her own angreal, and Shalon is quite strong. But, furthermore, you are incorrect in your statement about the effect of angreals. Elayne gives Aviendha an angreal and says it will double her strength and states that it is quite a powerful angreal. Graendal's on the other hand is specifically stated as a very weak angreal. So no, Graendal wasn't at 3+ her strength. She was at maybe .75+ her strength.

 

Where was that?  When Elayne uses the average strength amber turtle angreal in TPoD ch 2, it gives her twice the strength of Nynaeve, which is at least three times Elayne's own.  Now, admittedly, Graendal's gold ring angreal is not described as being an especially strong one.  She thinks to herself that it "doesn't offer much".  That thought should be taken in light of her history, however.  She was probably used to using strong angreal and sa'angreal in the Age of Legends.  Even if the ring is no better than the amber turtle, it should still offer 2.5 to 3 times her normal strength.

 

It is also very, very conspicuous that Verin's angreal is not in any way mentioned, either as being worn, or as being drawn through, in her POV.  The POV's of the other two defenders who we know had equipment (Elza with Callandor, and Cadsuane with the shrike) specifically mention drawing through the power amplifying item.  We don't get Alivia's POV, but the function and effect of her equipment is clearly described. 

 

Verin's POV simply says she drew on the power of the circle.  The angreal is not mentioned in any way.  Much like Eben's ... and there is no indication that his group had any kind of angreal.

 

So ... it is not clear to me at all that Graendal would be in a weaker position.  Even if she was, it was not by much.

 

...

 

This whole issue just seems ... unnecessarily ambiguous, unless you remove the Verin incident, in which case it seems extraordinarily clear.

[Davian93]

Where was that?  When Elayne uses the average strength amber turtle angreal in TPoD ch 2, it gives her twice the strength of Nynaeve, which is at least three times Elayne's own.

 

I don't think that Nynaeve is that much stronger than Elayne.  On the 21 scale, Nynaeve is a 5 while Elayne is a 7 (with 1 being the strongest: Wotmania FAQ).  I dont think 2 levels equals out to 3X as strong.  Unless I misread what you were trying to say...which is a possibility.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, the comparative description we have is that there is a considerable gap between Nynaeve and the rest of the Wonder Girls.  Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are all supposed to be roughly equal, but Moiraine's assessment was that:

 

With training, she [Nynaeve] will shine like a bonfire beside the candles of Elayne and Egwene.

 

TGH, ch 4

 

They may be only 2 levels apart on WOTmania's very unofficial 21 rank list, but the indications in the text are that there is a considerable gap.  Moiraine has only been assessing women's relative strength for her whole career, after all ...

 

For 3 times Elayne's strength to equal 2 times Nynaeve's strength, Nynaeve would have to be half again as strong as Elayne.  A bonfire is clearly at least half again as bright as a candle.  Even allowing Moiraine a bit of artistic license in her description, it is not at all unreasonable to think that Nynaeve is half again as strong as Elayne.  Keep in mind that the angreal allowed Elayne to handle more than two times Nynaeve's strength.

 

There are enough variables here that it is impossible to say who had a raw strength advantage, Graendal or Verin's circle.  But the range of variation isn't enough for either to have an overwhelming strength advantage.  So, skill, experience, and other advantages (like, I don't know, invisible weaves?) are (or should be) the determining factor.

[Davian93]

For 3 times Elayne's strength to equal 2 times Nynaeve's strength, Nynaeve would have to be half again as strong as Elayne.  A bonfire is clearly at least half again as bright as a candle.  Even allowing Moiraine a bit of artistic license in her description, it is not at all unreasonable to think that Nynaeve is half again as strong as Elayne.

 

Yeah, I can buy that.  I doubt that the 21 scale is a one for one thing anyway. i.e. the gap between 13 and 14 is probalby different than the one between 14 and 15 and so on.  Either way its a very loose ranking system.

[Luckers]

Um ... Cyndane was throwing a fireball.  She didn't expect Alivia to sense her channeling, she expected Alivia to see the fireball.

 

Unless you're saying she expected Alivia to see (not sense) the actual web, and not just the effect of the web.  In which case Cyndane is contradicting everything we know about reversing a web.

 

I refer you back to the specific quote. '... small enough to escape detection'.

 

I don't entirely understand your second comment... but yeah, im saying that cyndane clearly was concerned with detection of her channeling, and her specific use of minute amounts shows that it is the sensation of channeling that is her concern (which we know is governed by distance and strength).

 

Unless you think any person ever is capable of terming 'seeing the weaves' as detection... which to me seems impossible, it seems clear that Cyndane is refering to the sensation of active channeling. When added to Verin's apparent sensation of Graendal's active channeling it, to me, becomes certain.

 

See ... thats not quite so clear to me.  Verin knew she was channeling, because Verin knew the she could channel, and Verin knew that she had a reason too.  That conclusion always seemed like an exercise in rapid logic to me, not something Verin detected through her channeling sense.  "Wow, I just tried to shield this channeler and failed!  She's sure to counter-attack."  

 

It specifically does not say that Verin felt her channeling.

 

Is there any example where we know, unambiguously (as in it says it plainly), that someone felt someone else channeling reversed weaves?

 

There isn't. Though again to me i think the combination is pretty clear, but yeah, no there is nothing that can't be caste in an ambiguos light.

 

That being said, i dont think your interpretation of Verin's position holds much weight. The real issue with it is the word 'begun'.

 

The woman turns and begins channeling. Verin is very clear on that. The use of such implies a specific perception of the moment of active channeling, yet Verin also specifically states that she sees no weaves, and in the method of her description it doesn't seem that she is reacting to some form of physical effect of Graendal's weave (although if you disagree im interested in discussing that since its a bit based on perception).

 

Each, individually, have minor issues against them. Together though i think they become clear... but yeah, its not even really a big issues, so lets not get out of ourselves.

 

Where was that?  When Elayne uses the average strength amber turtle angreal in TPoD ch 2, it gives her twice the strength of Nynaeve, which is at least three times Elayne's own.

 

Yeah, sorry, you are correct--my memeory recalled the twice, but not that it was in reference to Nynaeve.

 

That being said... at least three times Elayne's strength? It's not really important, but that seems quite the claim. Especially the 'at least'. I could possibly see it meaning maybe three times Elayne's strength... but yeah...

 

Now, admittedly, Graendal's gold ring angreal is not described as being an especially strong one.  She thinks to herself that it "doesn't offer much".  That thought should be taken in light of her history, however.  She was probably used to using strong angreal and sa'angreal in the Age of Legends.  Even if the ring is no better than the amber turtle, it should still offer 2.5 to 3 times her normal strength.

 

Ok, i dont think that argument holds much merit, but even if you actually look in light of her histroy you are looking at a woman that was an ascetic prior to the war, and in the war never engaged in any sort of active violent role. In what way would we have reason to expect that she had consistant access to the strongest of angreal... i mean yeah, sure, she's a Marked Chosen, yet the role she plays did not reauire that and there are obviously pressing needs for personal strength from other players when engaged in a war.

 

But yeah, as i said originally i don't know that that argument holds weight even if she did. The only real bit of information we have is that her angreal is as weak angreal.

 

And even if thats wrong its ultimately a non-issue too. Verin, with her angreal, and linked to Shalon who is strong and with Kumira who isn't, but is still contributing. Honestly, yes, i do see that circle being roughly equal to Graendal with her angreal.

 

It is also very, very conspicuous that Verin's angreal is not in any way mentioned, either as being worn, or as being drawn through, in her POV.  The POV's of the other two defenders who we know had equipment (Elza with Callandor, and Cadsuane with the shrike) specifically mention drawing through the power amplifying item.  We don't get Alivia's POV, but the function and effect of her equipment is clearly described.  

 

Not especially. Verin in her pov never crosses anything that would cause concideration her her angreal, and frankly i find it preposterous that Verin would not use it in such a situation--especially since Verin is clearly aware that Graendal is a forsaken before she strikes, not to mention he comments about using the full strength of the circle and the fact that she is very clear about her realisation that she is fighting for her life and her specific intention to live.

 

So ... it is not clear to me at all that Graendal would be in a weaker position.  Even if she was, it was not by much.

 

That i never suggested. I said that it seemed very very likely that Verin's circle would be a match for Graendal and her angreal, and that personally i concidered it likely that Verin's circle was ultimately slightly stronger, and came out worse because of lack of knowledge.

 

Especially since in knowledge Graendal had the advantage and thus how was Verin able to stop her? And all the above, of course.

 

This whole issue just seems ... unnecessarily ambiguous, unless you remove the Verin incident, in which case it seems extraordinarily clear.

 

No, its still distorted by the Cyndane experience, and in the combination of the two it becomes very clear. Reversion hides the weves as you are weaving them, but not the sensation of someone channeling.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... this isn't the first time we've disagreed on this, so .... -shrug- OK.

[Luckers]

Clearly it is! We never disagree. You just try disagreeing with me about it!