Masking

[dyring]

If it has become a discussion about angreal strength, Id like to put something in that might make it aparent that the range of strengths in angreals are greater then you think ;)

 

Consider Rand, and the Salidar embassy in Caemlyn. Rand using his fat man angreal, and still, despite using it, and despite it taing less strength to hold someone once shielded, LTT is afraid one of them will break free(and if memory serves, it sais break free, so he isnt talking about the problem of shielding someone already holding, you can stagger that and that way hitting hard enough).

 

If the fat man doubled Rand´s strenght, that would mean he would be quite abit weaker then 3.5 Aes sedai there(since he´d haveto be significantly weaker for them to break his shields). That seems odd, since I can´t recall that most of the AS there was specifically strong.

 

I´d think the fat man does quite abit less then double Rand´s strenght. Graendals angreal might very well do quite abit less to.

 

//dyring

 

 

[Tyrell]

Was Graendal masking her ability? I don't have the book with me so Idunno if Verin could sense it or not, if she wasn't then invisible weaves or no invisible weaves Verin would have seen the glow/felt it.

 

I was under the impression that:

 

-Inversion : Making pre-prepared weaves invisible

-Reversion : Making weaves invisible as you spin them

-Masking : Hiding your ability to channel / your channeling glow / the ability for people to sense you channelling

 

Reversing your weaves doesn't imply masking your ability. I mean.. Graendal wore strieth, I know she didn't nessecerily have time to change once she felt the Cheodan Kal being used but she could easily have woven an illusion if she had thought that she would need the element of surprise (wearing strieth in my oppinion kinda makes her presence rather obvious). Because she didn't think to weave an illusion, maybe she didn't think to mask herself?

 

Obviously once she was in a combat situation she would have reversed her weaves for the advantage it'd give though.

[lou]

the forsaken charged into the cleansing on orders from moridin. they did so at a moments notice, feeling the surge of immense power. how much time did they actually have to prepare inversion,reversion and masking? i ask because most of the theories posted seem to infer that there was a pr-preparedness on the part of the forsaken. they didnt have any kind of a timeline to go by.rand would assume, and did, that the surge would draw the forsaken like a beakon, and anyone who showed up would be suspect, why bother using time better spent on anhilating your enemy than fancy tricks with the power.there was never a chance for the element of suprise, really. the only one who truly suprised anyone was halima.

[Davian93]

how much time did they actually have to prepare inversion,reversion and maskin

 

I really don't think there is that great of a time difference if they had stopped to prepare these things.  They probably would have thought of it the same as a soldiers thinks of grabbing his rifle when going out of the tent in case of an alert.  You definitely want your rifle when going into battle and I'm sure the Forsaken would take every advantage they could get.

 

why bother using time better spent on anhilating your enemy than fancy tricks with the power.there was never a chance for the element of suprise, really. the only one who truly suprised anyone was halima.

 

Honestly...because that fancy trick may just end up saving their life and giving them that extra edge that they need.  I definitely see where you're coming from though.

[Luckers]

If it has become a discussion about angreal strength, Id like to put something in that might make it aparent that the range of strengths in angreals are greater then you think ;)

 

Consider Rand, and the Salidar embassy in Caemlyn. Rand using his fat man angreal, and still, despite using it, and despite it taing less strength to hold someone once shielded, LTT is afraid one of them will break free(and if memory serves, it sais break free, so he isnt talking about the problem of shielding someone already holding, you can stagger that and that way hitting hard enough).

 

If the fat man doubled Rand´s strenght, that would mean he would be quite abit weaker then 3.5 Aes sedai there(since he´d haveto be significantly weaker for them to break his shields). That seems odd, since I can´t recall that most of the AS there was specifically strong.

 

I´d think the fat man does quite abit less then double Rand´s strenght. Graendals angreal might very well do quite abit less to.

 

//dyring

 

 

 

No, Rand never shielded the Aes Sedai, and the specific thought was from Lews Therin. 'Seven. I said three, and seven come. I must be cautious... yes, cautious.' Lews Therin seems uncertain as to whether he could match them or not, which implies that they are around the same strength. Somewhere around 260, or a little over twice Rand's normal strength of 110.

 

Was Graendal masking her ability? I don't have the book with me so Idunno if Verin could sense it or not, if she wasn't then invisible weaves or no invisible weaves Verin would have seen the glow/felt it.

 

I was under the impression that:

 

-Inversion : Making pre-prepared weaves invisible

-Reversion : Making weaves invisible as you spin them

-Masking : Hiding your ability to channel / your channeling glow / the ability for people to sense you channelling

 

Reversing your weaves doesn't imply masking your ability. I mean.. Graendal wore strieth, I know she didn't nessecerily have time to change once she felt the Cheodan Kal being used but she could easily have woven an illusion if she had thought that she would need the element of surprise (wearing strieth in my oppinion kinda makes her presence rather obvious). Because she didn't think to weave an illusion, maybe she didn't think to mask herself?

 

Masking does not hide the sensation of channeling. It hides the sense of your ability to channel, and the glow, but not the sensation other channelers feel when you channel. This was made initially clear by Moghedian in her scene with egwene in LoC, and has since then been back up by Cyndane's POV in Winter's Heart.

 

 

[dyring]

Well, thats not the phrase I meant thou luckers. (And I know he never shielded them:p)

 

Now, I´m taking this from memory, so I´m hoping I´m getting the wording right, but LTT also sais(thinks?:p) "not strong enough, even with the angreal maybe not strong enough", I´m going to read through it again later, but if my memory is right he indicates that "even with the angreal maybe not strong enough"(to hold them)(the "to hold the part" I take from the fact that rand just after thinks "if even one of them could break free")

 

I take that as even with the angreal, its not certain he can hold them.

Now, gonna go kick my friend for having borrowed the book I wanna check in ;)

 

Is there any part where there is anything clearer than hints saying from how much, to how little, an angreal can increase the power?

 

//dyring

[Luckers]

Lews Therin is aware that they are already holding the power in any case... the shielding of someone holding the power requires much greater strength, again showing that in his thought that he may not be strong enough there is the implication that he is at somewhere around twice to three times his normal strength. Which makes sense--seven women contributing between 75 and 90 percent of their full strength, a full strength that falls between 40 and 50 units of strength varying, comes out between 250 and 300, whilst Rand, at around 110 with an angreal comes out between 220 and 330. They obvious varience there is what causes the uncertainty.

[Tyrell]

Where are you getting these numbers from?

[elmis]

There has long been theory posts on the different strenghts of the characters. Here is a link to a comprehensive one.

 

Part 1

Part 2

 

Keep in mind, it's only a theory. Personally, I disagree with several of the claims, specially when it comes to the Forsaken, as they've used subjective passages to help gauge it.

 

It is also just a list over raw strength in the power, not how skilled the person using it is. I'm sure there is a quote from RJ, saying that a women weaves much more deftly than a man of the same strength, but I can't seem to find it now. :(

 

On another note in RJ answered a question about the battle at Shadar Logoth once.

 

Questions from August 17th, 2004 - January 25th, 2005, Week 15.

 

RJ Answer: <snip> You didn't see Graendal, either, though admittedly Moghedien thought of her, thinking it would be good if she or Cyndane died. <snip>

 

Maybe he just forgot about the Verin incident when he was answering the question, or someone else with a streith dress was there. Or maybe he just wanted to forget all about it, because as RAW said, he wrote himself up in a corner. ;)

 

 

 

[Tyrell]

Masking does not hide the sensation of channeling. It hides the sense of your ability to channel, and the glow, but not the sensation other channelers feel when you channel. This was made initially clear by Moghedian in her scene with egwene in LoC, and has since then been back up by Cyndane's POV in Winter's Heart.

 

Rand stilled a grimmace before it could begin. his skin felt no tingling, no goodebumps. They had masked their ability, and with it, shielded him from sensing the power in them.

 

I was just reading through KoD and came accross this, unless the effect of masking in terms of sensing the masked person's ability is different between men/women then methinks we need a new theory?

 

Edit:

 

"One of them is channeling," Nynaeve said, just loudly enough for him to hear, as she climbed down from her saddle. "I can't see anything so she's masked her ability and inverted the weave - and I wonder how the Seanchan learned that! - but she's canneling. Only one; there isn't enough for it to be two." Her ter'angreal could not tell whether it was saidin or saidar being channeled, but it was unlikely to be a man

 

Rand may be wrong of course, but this implies that Nynaeve wouldn't be able to tell that any channeling was happening without her ter'angreal.

[Luckers]

The specific sensation we are discussing is the sensation experienced as a person draws on saidar to weave. Elayne shows that a weave already woven and inverted is completely undetectable. Moghedian backs this up in LoC when Egwene feels her channeling, but sees no weaves, and Cyndane and Verin show it in action in Winter's Heart. Reversion hides the weave, masking hides the ability but neither hides the sensation of active channeling.

 

 

Quote from: KoD, A Plain Wooden Box, one page later

"One of them is channeling," Nynaeve said, just loudly enough for him to hear, as she climbed down from her saddle. "I can't see anything so she's masked her ability and inverted the weave - and I wonder how the Seanchan learned that! - but she's canneling. Only one; there isn't enough for it to be two." Her ter'angreal could not tell whether it was saidin or saidar being channeled, but it was unlikely to be a man

 

Rand may be wrong of course, but this implies that Nynaeve wouldn't be able to tell that any channeling was happening without her ter'angreal.

 

Nynaeve would not be able to detect an inverted weave. Having already been woven, it would give nothing that Nynaeve would sense lacking her ter'angreal.

 

Where are you getting these numbers from?

 

A rough estimate based on several things. For one we know the top male strength stands a level or two above the top female strength. Furthermore we know that the female range is an equally distributed sequence of 21 levels, making the male around 22 or 23 levels. Meaning that on a scale of one to one hundred (the upper female strength being one hundred) Rand falls somewhere between 104 and 109.

 

The Aes Sedai are a much looser estimate. We know links exceed the strength the women individually, yet we also now that it is not the sum of its parts. This means that somewhere between about 55% and 95% of a womans strength is contributed. Based purely on comments when we have POV characters are entered in links im betting its on the higher side, somewhere between 80% and 90%.

 

Furthermore, we know none of the women involved are near the upper Aes Sedai strength (that of Siuan (old), Romanda, Lelaine, Moiraine and Elaida)--ignoring Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls who are outliers).

 

The point of my comment was that Rand's angreal, roughly speaking, must have been contributing at least around double to triple his normal strength in order for his feelings of caution, but not defeatism.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Moghedian backs this up in LoC when Egwene feels her channeling, but sees no weaves

 

All stop.

 

Cite me this one Luckers.  If its convincing, you might even get an "I was (somewhat) wrong" out of me.

 

(Not that I really buy it in any case ... even assuming that Verin could feel Graendal drawing on the Power, its still astoundingly unlikely that she could survive without being able to see ANY of the weaves .... but the odds would go up from ridiculuously unmentionable to shockingly unlikely.)

[lou]

that is something i can agree with, robert.

[Graendals favourite]

I think this is very interesting. It explains things too, I like it. Now I feel a need to reread or rethink all the scenes in which a channeller sees or feels someone channelling. Luckers, how does Leane's smartness over Egwene in reversing her cuendillar-making weaves beforehand play into this?

[dyring]

Shouldent that be kinda the same as when egwene stand behinds Rand´s "invisibilityshield" in cairhien? When Elaidas embassy meets him, and only the Brown sister realizes that there was a female channeler present? Something that you need to be alert to notice?

 

That could explain some inconsistency in it sometimes being felt and sometimes not.

 

//dyring

[Luckers]

Quote

Moghedian backs this up in LoC when Egwene feels her channeling, but sees no weaves

 

All stop.

 

Cite me this one Luckers.  If its convincing, you might even get an "I was (somewhat) wrong" out of me.

 

Actually I was wrong on this one, Moghedian wasn't disguising her ability, just reversing her weaves--it does raise the questions of how the girls did not learn reversion from her when all three were sitting there watching her do it, but yeah, no masking. Sorry.

 

(Not that I really buy it in any case ... even assuming that Verin could feel Graendal drawing on the Power, its still astoundingly unlikely that she could survive without being able to see ANY of the weaves .... but the odds would go up from ridiculuously unmentionable to shockingly unlikely.)

 

I'm not sure how that is a relevant contention--i mean, i agree that it is unlikely that Verin would have survived the entire altercation if Graendal maintained her reversion, and that makes it seem likely that at some stage she was too frazzled to maintain the mental focus required to reverse your weavings--but that doesn't seem to bear any influence on the fact that Verin quite clearly senses the exact moment that Graendal began channeling despite the fact that her weaves were reversed.

 

I think this is very interesting. It explains things too, I like it. Now I feel a need to reread or rethink all the scenes in which a channeller sees or feels someone channelling. Luckers, how does Leane's smartness over Egwene in reversing her cuendillar-making weaves beforehand play into this?

 

The issue here is that if anything, Leane did not reverse her cuendillar weave, she inverted it. Therefore this is the reason the Aes Sedai sense nothing--she wove it out of the range of their senses and moved it closer, much as Elayne did with her shield in Caemlyn. The curious fact is that it seems that the Light does not know how to reverse their weaves--even though Moghedian seemingly uses reversion in front of the Wonder Girls.

 

 

[Wayhey]

I was under the impression that:

 

-Inversion : Making pre-prepared weaves invisible

-Reversion : Making weaves invisible as you spin them

-Masking : Hiding your ability to channel / your channeling glow / the ability for people to sense you channelling

 

 

 

Does one's Masking stop others from feeling that he/she is channelling?  I'm not so sure about that.

[Trib4l]

AFAIK, Masking blocks the ability for others to even sense the ability or active channeling so long as the weaves are reversed.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Does one's Masking stop others from feeling that he/she is channelling?  I'm not so sure about that.

 

Thats the whole issue here.  If a channeler is masking her ability, and using reversed weaves, can another channeler feel her channeling?  Luckers is claiming, quite definitively, that they can.  I'm not quite sure its that clear.  So, I'm asking for a clear example, either from the books or a statement from the author on the subject.

 

So far, I haven't seen any.

[dyring]

Does one's Masking stop others from feeling that he/she is channelling?  I'm not so sure about that.

 

Thats the whole issue here.  If a channeler is masking her ability, and using reversed weaves, can another channeler feel her channeling?  Luckers is claiming, quite definitively, that they can.  I'm not quite sure its that clear.  So, I'm asking for a clear example, either from the books or a statement from the author on the subject.

 

So far, I haven't seen any.

 

What do you think about the "invisible Egwene" thing when rand met the embassy then? If only one of 3 sisters realized she was there then there is skill/attention involved even in sensing weawing/channeling(and I doubt the brown sister was stronger then galina, so that shouldent be it)

 

Maybe skill/alertness plays in in masking too. Maybe its something like healing talent strength variation, some channelers are very good at sensing things even i they shouldent.

 

//dyring

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, what I understood is that masking the ability only means a woman does not feel the ability to channel in another woman. Nothing of what she feels if changed by this if that woman starts channelling, only the she sees a woman channelling or holding the power, who apparently cannot channel.

 

Then you can also hide the glow, you can hide that you hold the power?

 

Reversing means nothing beyond that your weaves are not visible to others, but you are seen and felt to hold the power and you are felt to channel.

 

In inversion, you make and inverse the weaves beforehand, so whatever is to be felt must be felt then. When you release or set the weaves on something, nothing is felt or seen except for possible physical effects.

 

What Rand did to Egwene, he merely made her invisible. However, women can sense the ability to channel in other channellers, even if they cannot see them.

 

These are right?

[dyring]

What Rand did to Egwene, he merely made her invisible. However, women can sense the ability to channel in other channellers, even if they cannot see them.

 

 

 

Yes, my point was that only one out of 3 AS there noticed Egwene, meaning that its not something that extremely obvious, or the other 2 would have noticed too. Noticing someone channeling while masking might be the same, they can feel it, but theyr so used to it beeing glaringly obvious with the glow, that most don´t really think about it, and don´t notice.

 

//dyring

[Graendals favourite]

Ah, true. That probably won't hold for the Forsaken who are more used to these masking things and more sensitive usually, but yea.

 

I think it is perhaps necessary to separate the feel of someone holding the power, the feel of someone channelling, seeing someone hold the power and seeing someone channelling.

[DemandredFO]

I'd just like to ask a question, is slicing a weave that you cannot see that much different from reversion or inverting?

[Luckers]

Thats the whole issue here.  If a channeler is masking her ability, and using reversed weaves, can another channeler feel her channeling?  Luckers is claiming, quite definitively, that they can.  I'm not quite sure its that clear.  So, I'm asking for a clear example, either from the books or a statement from the author on the subject.

 

So far, I haven't seen any.

 

Verin's seems pretty clear. And to my mind Cyndane's is as well.

 

Yes, my point was that only one out of 3 AS there noticed Egwene, meaning that its not something that extremely obvious, or the other 2 would have noticed too. Noticing someone channeling while masking might be the same, they can feel it, but theyr so used to it beeing glaringly obvious with the glow, that most don´t really think about it, and don´t notice.

 

Indeed, that easy oversight certainly seems to be what Cyndane is playing on in Winter's Heart.

 

I think it is perhaps necessary to separate the feel of someone holding the power, the feel of someone channelling, seeing someone hold the power and seeing someone channelling.

 

Agreed. Masking the ability, to my mind, conceals the feel of someone holding the power and seeing someone hold the power. Reversion hides seeing someone channeling, and, to my mind, none of them conceal the feeling of channeling. Which is more of less what you seemed to be saying in your above post... so yes, i agree.

 

I'd just like to ask a question, is slicing a weave that you cannot see that much different from reversion or inverting?

 

I'm not sure what you are asking... do you mean is slicing a reversed or inverted weave is the same as reversing or inverting your own weave, or do you mean is slicing a reversed weave any different from slicing a normal weave... or do you mean is slicing a reversed weave any different from, say, slicing a weave of someone of the opposite gender, that you cannot see?