ISAM/Luc

[Ko´bal]

Hello there!

New guy here from Sweden so sorry if I don´t know all abbreviations yet...

 

I just wonder if anyone have a clue what might happen with Isam and Luc. If one dies will the other die also? Or maybe both have to be killed at the same time? My own theory is that Lan will kill Isam and Perrin Luc, or maybe the other way around...  :-\

 

Is there any other thoughts? Maybe this has been discussed before. If so please guide me to that thread.  :)

 

/ K

[Blackrose]

isam and luc are one person i think. but they just share the body. so if luc dies isam has no host body thus he dies ?!? i think so anyway

 

 

Lews

[dmanmiller34]

Thats what I always thought alos. Since they are the Same person Destroying one would destroy the other. Unless Destroying one only realeases the conciousness of the other so roam free in Telanrihoid. I mean techinacally they are 2 souls sharing the same body. MAybe they could be seperated somehow and destroyed. (Uh oh that sounds like the body swap theroy which i am against) But it could conceiveably happen. I think it would be a cool scene if Perrin and Lan Team up to kill him while he is constantly cahnging his persona in the battle. Maybe if you made him change enoguht times fast enough you could send him into overdrive and self destruct. ;)

[Blackrose]

sam lives in TAR, whereas Luc is the main body. if luc dies isam lives in TAR?!?

 

whereas if isam dies in TAR luc dies because anything that happesn to them happens to the body. but luc and isam share the body and enter TAR 'in the flesh' so if one dies the other dies.

 

 

sorry if i have contradicted myself here.

 

 

Lews

[Luckers]

It doesn't quite work like that, lewstherin. Either can exist in both TAR or the waking world, and the method of changing between the two is done during the process of stepping into TAR.

 

Seemingly there are seperate personalities there, but just as seemingly they seem intertwined. Both are aware of the others memories, and thinks of them as being sweet (note Luc's thoughts on killing Amico and Joiya even though it was Isam that did that).

 

Ultimately I believe they are two closely linked for one to be able to live without the other.

[Blackrose]

Okies i thought u or RAW would answer better than me. but i know that isam/luc will die if one of them is killed

[Staffski]

Hello there!

New guy here from Sweden so sorry if I don´t know all abbreviations yet...

 

I'm from Sweden also, but I've been around for a while. Though I haven't posted here in a couple of years.

Oh sorry, I'm not helping this thread to move forward... But it seems you've already got your question answered. :)

 

Snyggt att du lyckades få in ordet "abbreviations"  ;)

[Ko´bal]

Thanks a lot for this! It really helps my thoughts on the matter. Isam aren´t just alive in the world of dreams as Luckers say. That we have seen some times.

Linked to this though I just wonder if trollocks have dreams? Cause when they attack Emmondsfield they shout for ISAM, like a god or something like. He wasn´t there and still they use his name like a war cry... But if he´s been around for a time walking in thei dreams it would really make more sense. It would also make more sense to explain why a human without the Power can command the trollocks and myrdraal. It´s also importqant that it is Isam and not Luc who is the central figure when comes to deaing with trollocks. Hmm, it´s really demanding some thought.. :)

I just think that the making of Isam/Luc was one of RJ´s finest moments cause he/they is/are so complex.

 

Japp jag är ganska stolt själv över det ordet... :)

 

 

 

[Trib4l]

A good confirmation of them dying together is from when Perrin shot Isam in T'A'R and Luc was seen clutching his chest and bleeding in 'TRW'. Apparently they share wounds taken as the other, so it would be a solid theory to say both would die if one was killed.

[Child of Lir]

One important point to note. Luc and Isam do not share the same body - there appear to be two bodies. Isam (Slayer) is in "tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh, i.e. in Isam's body. When stepping out of "tel'aran'rhiod" he becomes Luc and takes on Luc's body. Therefore, both bodies exist.

 

When in "tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh, changes cannot be made to the body in the way that they are made to the dream body. Rand's body only changed, in the flesh, in Rahvin's attack on him because Rahvin had channeled to make this happen.

 

This leads into the unanswered questions about the Luc / Isam construct. What happens to the other body and the other soul when the change occurs? How have the two bodies been merged to form this construct? Is he now a shapeshifter? If it is the latter, then this suggests that one shape can be killed and the other survive intact, just as one soul could be killed and the other remain intact. That raises an interesting possibility; should Isam be killed, i.e. his soul destroyed, then would Luc's soul be released from enslavement?

[Trib4l]

You should have read my post, CoL. It dealt with some of the things you posted there, i.e. can one body be hurt if the other is, etc...

[Mr Ares]

One important point to note. Luc and Isam do not share the same body - there appear to be two bodies. Isam (Slayer) is in "tel'aran'rhiod" in the flesh, i.e. in Isam's body. When stepping out of "tel'aran'rhiod" he becomes Luc and takes on Luc's body. Therefore, both bodies exist.

One important point to note: he can be either Luc or Isam either in T'A'R or the real world - he can change as he goes into and out of T'A'R.

[dmanmiller34]

No it is possible to change someones shape in Telariod. Rand being changed was not being done by the power. Brigette was changed by Moggy into a little baby girl and she alos threatend to turn Nyneave into a horse to ride around. Changeing things in the dream world does not require channeling just a knowldge of Telanrhiod. Also Luc and Isam Do in fact share the same physical body. He is just able to change it. Only Possible by entering the world of dreams to do so though. but the 2 coniounesses do reside in his head. Like Rand And Lews therin. They share the same body but both exist insdie of it. Only Luc/Isam are able to physically change as well.

[Andrew the Great]

Since no one else has answered this yet (I think), Ko'bal, (correct me if im wrong) Trollocs do have dreams, but myrddraal dont. If Isam/Luc wanted to command them using this, he probably could. That being said, I dont know if the trollocs would actually listen to anything he told them.....

[dmanmiller34]

I Belive that the Trollocs yelled Isam becasue he was they're leader. He might not of fought on the lines but he orchastrated the attacks. He was there hunting Fain. And Yes Trollocs do dream. They even have a sense of humor.

[Luckers]

Isam was indeed in charge of the Trollocs that were sent to the Two Rivers following Fain.

 

Additionally, Myrdraal dream as well. Only the Grey Men are denied dreams.

[Guest silver89]

Additionally, Myrdraal dream as well. Only the Grey Men are denied dreams.

 

I'm guessing that the Grey Men don't have dreams because dreaming is related to souls and they are soulless. If thats the case that would mean that even though Trollocs and Myrddrall are constructs, they have souls. How can something created by MAN have a soul?

 

Thoughts anyone...

[Graendals favourite]

The body the fountain, the soul the water. When a fountain is made, water can be fitted in the same as in those already working.

[Luckers]

I'm guessing that the Grey Men don't have dreams because dreaming is related to souls and they are soulless. If thats the case that would mean that even though Trollocs and Myrddrall are constructs, they have souls. How can something created by MAN have a soul?

 

Thoughts anyone...

 

That would be christian ideology at play. Many religions and philosophies purport the inherent biological existance of a soul, and more to the point, the scope of this story states as much. Since we know that wild animals all have reflections in TAR we know that they have souls, the genetic manipulation and crossbreeding of two or more species, each with souls, supports the continued presense of a soul.

 

Indeed, following on with that the common belief pervasive amongst the internet community is that Myrdraal occur when the human gene for channeling breeds true, which requires a soul.

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

Now that I answered here, it occurred to me that Lanfear said in tDR that only Grey Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams, even Trollocs dream. Not that it is a pressing matter, but Myrddraal don't dream, Lanfear should know what she speaks of. Perhaps it is related to Myrddraal not having a sense of humour, save for Shaidar Harans. Indeed, Myrddraal are not truly part of this world, they cannot live in the world, unlike Trollocs.

 

(PS. Woohoo, I made my thousandth post. Cake for everyone..  ;D)

[Luckers]

Hmm. Strange, i have very clear memories of a comment about a myrdraal's dream.

 

Am I going insane?

 

The answer: Going?

 

*sigh* *runs and hides in a corner*

[The Lost One]

Hmm. Strange, i have very clear memories of a comment about a myrdraal's dream.

 

Am I going insane?

 

The answer: Going?

 

*sigh* *runs and hides in a corner*

 

Going...going....gone!

 

 

 

 

So sorry, I could not resist.  I thought you were going to finish it like that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Luckers may be insane, but in this case, it didn't stop him from being right.

 

Lanfear to Ishy, TDR, ch 36 "Daughter of the Night"

 

"I serve," she said quickly.  "I have served the Lord of Twilight long.  Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep.  Only Grey Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams.  Even Trollocs can dream.  Dreams were always mine, to use and walk.  Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine."

 

emphasis mine, of course ...

 

[Graendals favourite]

That was the quote I was referring to, but as you can see, it means Luckers was wrong, since what he said earlier was that Grey men did dream  :P,

[Nelal Hurcran]

Luckers may be insane, but in this case, it didn't stop him from being right.

That was the quote I was referring to, but as you can see, it means Luckers was wrong, since what he said earlier was that Grey men did dream  :P,

 

And you're both wrong. Luckers was reffering to Mydrall having dreams, as he stated here:

 

Hmm. Strange, i have very clear memories of a comment about [glow=blue,1,500]a myrdraal's dream[/glow].

 

emphasis mine, of course ...