Asha'Man - Aes Sedai

[Timewalker]

Not sure if this has been brought up, I haven't checked this forum for a long time, but I just thought of something. Aes Sedai are bonding Asha'Man and Asha'Man are bonding Aes Sedai. What if all new Asha'Man had to bond one new Aes Sedai and the same Aes Sedai had to bond the same Asha'Man? They'd both be bonded together. No one would be in control, yet it seems like they'd work rather well together. Just a thought.

[The Dragon Reborn]

I could be wrong, but as far as I can remember, the normal 'warder compulsion' doesn't work on people who can channel. The Aes Sedai have no control over their Asha'man warders, nor vise versa. Bonding seems to kinda be a level playing field anyway when both can channel.

[Surreall]

apart from of course that special bond, the like that Logon uses on the A/S

[keith_rogers_irl]

I believe that the bonding of an asha'man is different from bonding a non-channeler. If I remember correctly, Allana says that she tried to use the warder bond to compell rand soon after she bonded him, also, in far madding when rand is hiding out, the aes sedai that bonded the asha'man say much the same.

[YellowSisterHanacho]

The bond is different in that the bond compulsion does not apply (except the particular bond with Logain and his Aes Sedai) but I think that the rest of the perks, like not needing food and water and not really needing sleep for extended periods of time, still apply if I am not mistaken. It has been awhile since I read some of the first of the series. . . as I am still working on getting through KOD and I am a student who does not have much time for pleasure reading. But I think I am correct in my assessments. Perhaps the men get these things and not the women. I don't really know.

[drunkengrizzly]

i believe all the usuals apply both ways.  rand was the exception to the rule.  he couldn't be compelled because he was so darn stubborn.  Logain makes it work, Merise makes it work, so it probably works in most cases.

[drovja]

As far as I know, strength in the Power plays a great deal here. A weak AS couldn't use the bond to compel a stronger AM, and vice-versa. The reason Rand wasn't compelled by Alanna is simply his strength. Stubborness does play a factor in the 'old-fashioned' kind of compulsion, as evidenced by Egwene's and Morgase's resistance when compelled by the Forsaken.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Tell me if I'm making any sense at all. Can an AS/Asha'man bond someone who has bonded somebody else? I'm sure they can, but I'm just wondering how the bond is going to work. Imagine if someone bonded Logain, and then somebody bonded the person who bonded Logain. I'm sure the chain would be problematic and all, but what I want to know is how that bond will actually work. What relationship are they all going to have?

[ironcross]

it would probly be like rands bond with the girls and elayn having briget as warder as well.  dose cause a few problems, but none that are serious.  dont see it as to much diferent from a green sister having several warders, but maby one of those warders shared.  might help to keep them alive if one of the as got killed. interesting thought.....  do only men warders go mad when thier as gets killed? would an asha man getting killed make his female warders go mad?

[Luckers]

The reason the compulsive aspects did not work on Rand is because he was wrapped in saidin at the time that she attempted to compel him which we know thanks to Sammael. I theorize that it has to do with the chaotic nature of saidin--either in the mere chaos that envelops the man when he draws saidin into him, or as a result of the mindset of the man whilst he is holding saidin. Men fight the power, and bend it to their will, and that mindset likely isn't condusive to compulsion.

 

This would fit with the fact that women holding saidar CAN be compelled (as seen through Moghedian with Nynaeve and Elayne, or Graendal with Moghedian and Cyndane). Women submit to saidar, which is in itself tranquil--at least on the surface.

 

But meh, all that is conjecture on my part. All we really know is that if a man is holding saidin, he can't be compelled. At any other time, however, the compulsive aspect would work, which is why Merise and the others may have had some success (though we don't actually know that they've attempted to compel any of their men since then, other then the slight suggestion that Merise had to get the dragon pin of Narishma). It's lucky for Rand that Alanna never tried to compel him again.

 

I could be wrong, but as far as I can remember, the normal 'warder compulsion' doesn't work on people who can channel. The Aes Sedai have no control over their Asha'man warders, nor vise versa. Bonding seems to kinda be a level playing field anyway when both can channel.

 

There is no normal 'warder compulsion' in the sense of a base weave that all different channelers use. There are several different bonding weaves that are all quite different, some including compulsive aspects, some not. They are as follows.

 

The Aes Sedai Warder Bond - Allows awareness of their bond mate sensations, gives the warder increased strength, vitality and so forth, allows the Aes Sedai to draw on the Warders strength (even unto his death), and when used in concert with a weave allows for compulsion. That weave does not work without the bond, but the bond itself is not intrinsically compulsive.

 

The Asha'men Wife Bond - Allows awareness of the bond mate's sensations.

 

The Asha'men 'extra bit' Bond - Allows awareness of the bond mate's sensations, and contains an inherent compulsive aspect keyed to verbal commands. No need for the Asha'men to channel.

 

The Aiel Sister Bond - Allows awareness of the bond mate's sensations, but to a lesser degree than the other bonds. Doesn't cause the cross of sensations between same-sex bondmates.

 

Romanda's Bond (The Old Warder Bond?) - Romanda suggests a bond much like the Asha'men's 'extra bit' bond, containing an inherent Compulsion aspect. There have been comments that suggest that in the older days there was such an inherent compulsion as a part of the bond, and that was removed for the more specific, and less invasive modern method. Egwene shoots her down, but the Aes Sedai seem to know how to make this bond if they choose.

 

Rand's Harum Bond - It's gold and gooey, but not much else.

 

i believe all the usuals apply both ways.  rand was the exception to the rule.  he couldn't be compelled because he was so darn stubborn.  Logain makes it work, Merise makes it work, so it probably works in most cases.

 

It would have worked for Alanna too, if Rand hadn't been holding saidin. Beyond that though, could you find me the place were Merise says she compelled Narishma--not that i don't believe you, i thought i remembered as much myself, and she certainly implied it to Cadsuane, but it might be good to have the solid quote there.

 

 

 

 

[Singer]

Just exactly how is a warder bond different from being a slave.  It sounds

like slavery to me.

[Luckers]

The Aes Sedai one was, originally. They bonded men without permission, and forced their assistance. In modern times it still has that function, if the Aes Sedai needs it, though there are powerful social safeguards in place--the threat of punishment if it is misused.

 

I always loved that the Aes Sedai never told their Warders they could drain their strength until they died. That amused me.

[DemandredFO]

I'm not so sure that AM can be compelled for the reason Luckers stated.  I think will is a component and because Men seize Saidin(except for Rand occasionally seizing saidar :lol:) and therefore can't be compelled.  Women surrender to saidar and therefore can, exccept for aforementioned Egwene, Morgase etc.)  I could be wrong, I am on FoH in my current reread but I don't believe Merise ever says she compelled Jahar.  Personally I don't believe AM can be compelled, I believe they cooperate of their own free will.  I'm sorry I don't have firmer proof but I don't have books right now.

[lou]

i think the scene in which merise tells cads she has tried to take the "pins" away from narishma is where we get the idea she tried to force him, but it is noted that the asha hold thier AS as the AS hold the ash, in the rand band, at least.

[Luckers]

I'm not so sure that AM can be compelled for the reason Luckers stated.

 

Just a side point, but this, which you state...

 

I think will is a component and because Men seize Saidin(except for Rand occasionally seizing saidar :lol:) and therefore can't be compelled.  Women surrender to saidar and therefore can, exccept for aforementioned Egwene, Morgase etc.)

 

Seems pretty much the same as this, which I stated.

 

Men fight the power, and bend it to their will, and that mindset likely isn't condusive to compulsion.

 

This would fit with the fact that women holding saidar CAN be compelled (as seen through Moghedian with Nynaeve and Elayne, or Graendal with Moghedian and Cyndane). Women submit to saidar, which is in itself tranquil--at least on the surface.

 

I'm not so sure that AM can be compelled for the reason Luckers stated.  I think will is a component and because Men seize Saidin(except for Rand occasionally seizing saidar :lol:) and therefore can't be compelled.  Women surrender to saidar and therefore can, exccept for aforementioned Egwene, Morgase etc.) 

 

Specifically though, you have the wrong idea about degrees. Morgase and Egwene both prove resistant to the long term effects of compulsion. They can be compelled like any non-channeler, but due to their indomitable wills they fight it constantly until they manage to break it. Nynaeve does the same thing when she was compelled by Moghedian.

 

Men of strong will would resist in the same manner, had the been compelled whilst not wrapped in saidin. But this is a completely different function to what occurs when someone tries to compel a man who is wrapped in saidin, as Sammael makes clear--those tricks simply do not work on a man holding the Source, and this is evidenced by Rand, who shows none of the internal struggling we witness in Morgase or Nynaeve.

 

A side point here, Egwene is a different case. Aran'gar kept her compulsion small specifically because it can a) be detected by delving, and Egwene was getting delved upon occaision because of the headaches that were a side-effect of Aran'gar blunting Egwene's dreaming ability, and b) Because powerful compulsion can be obvious.

 

Instead Aran'gar merely... tweaked Egwene's ideas. It was subtle, and i suspect in terms of lasting, it was much much stronger. Much like Elza actively clinging to her new position, Egwene's changes in regaurds to the oath and such have become her position, and she is not subconciously fighting it.

 

In any case, for clarity, strong willed people can, in the long run, shrug off a compulsion, but no persons will is strong enough to simply deny compulsion outright. Men wrapped in the chaos of saidin are immune in the sense that the compulsion never gets a chance to take hold, not that they actively resist it. Men not channeling can be compelled just like any other person.

[Surreall]

Hold on hold on,

 

I must be missing something completely here. I have always thought that compulsion and the bonding between people was far more simple than most are making it out here.

 

First off, Egwene and headaches. In my opinon the headaches werent a side affect of a possible somehting else (dreams as stated previously). But a lot more simply, he gave egwene headaches, just like semorage can do. Make pain, in the hope that egwene would make him stay, so he knows whats happening in her important discussions

 

Warder or general bonds. Just like weaving air you can add or remove stuff from the bond. The warder bond is a simple, give & take health and strength and feel what the other is feeling.

 

Logons bond, the same but added the "have to obey" part. I presume, and of course just my opinion, but it cannot be broken.

 

A/S bond to ashaman, no added compulsion, for me just like the warder bond.

 

All the other arguments for A/S bond compelling their warders/ashaman, is the simple will of women and nothing to do with the power. Try arguing with a woman, a classic in the books and one of RJ's favourite sayings. Try what you want, and argue all you want, but you will end up doing what she wants. That is the complelling, pure woman power. :)

 

Morgase obviously straight forward compelling weave from him, just like what Liandrin can do to a much lesser extent and Grendal in LARGE quantities.

 

Just my thoughts, as i think it has nothing to do with people holding the power when the bond is made

 

As for Alana, i dont think the bond she put on him was anything more than a warder bond. See above for what i think of that. She was trying the woman bullying thing on her, which obviously doesnt work

 

If i am wrong fair play to all, but dont underestimate battle of will's

[Luckers]

First off, Egwene and headaches. In my opinon the headaches werent a side affect of a possible somehting else (dreams as stated previously). But a lot more simply, he gave egwene headaches, just like semorage can do. Make pain, in the hope that egwene would make him stay, so he knows whats happening in her important discussions

 

No, we know the headaches are linked to the Aran'gar stopping Egwene from dreaming thanks to Chesa. She provides a cure to Egwene's headache, providing the one time Egwene dreamed true since Aran'gar gained access to her sleeping quarters.

 

Warder or general bonds. Just like weaving air you can add or remove stuff from the bond. The warder bond is a simple, give & take health and strength and feel what the other is feeling.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The bond itself does not function through active channeling other then the initial weave of bonding. The increased vitality and the ability to take strength and the awareness of the other persons feelings are constant following that, and are not added or removed through active channeling. The only function of the bond that requires channeling is the compulsive aspect, and that seems to have been an intentional alteration of the bond by the Aes Sedai in the past (based on Romanda's comments re: the bond that doesn't require active channeling for compulsion).

 

What do you mean 'live weaving air'? Certainly, in weaving the initial bond you may alter the nature of the weave to alter the nature of the Bond. The addition of the 'extra bit' to the Asha'men wife bond more the proves this, and Romanda's comments certainly suggest that the same thing was done to the Aes Sedai warder bond in the past. But, woven air cannot be 'added' or 'removed'. The nature of the initial weave is the nature of the effect, and to alter that you need to change the initial state of the flows, which isn't really applicable to the bond--the initial weave is the significant formative influence on the nature of the bond.

 

Logons bond, the same but added the "have to obey" part. I presume, and of course just my opinion, but it cannot be broken.

 

Logain's bond is not a variation of the warder bond, it's a variation of the wife bond. There are differences, which i listed in my above post. Additionally, he altered the initial weave to add the 'extra bit' that added the immediate compulsive element to any verbal commands. Even in that state, the 'extra bit' bond is quite different to the Warder bond, as is the Wife bond.

 

A/S bond to ashaman, no added compulsion, for me just like the warder bond.

 

The Aes Sedai bond to Asha'men is the exact same thing as the Warder bond, and does contain the element for compulsion.

 

I confess myself a little confused, i listed the differences between the bonds above. Do you have evidence that I was wrong?

 

All the other arguments for A/S bond compelling their warders/ashaman, is the simple will of women and nothing to do with the power. Try arguing with a woman, a classic in the books and one of RJ's favourite sayings. Try what you want, and argue all you want, but you will end up doing what she wants. That is the complelling, pure woman power.

 

Now this is absolutely confusing. The Aes Sedai bond contains elements for the power-induced compulsion of obedience. It has nothing to do with 'arguing' or 'women's will' it is the Power...

 

Here. Myrelle using it to compel Lan.

 

"Come to me."

 

The horse did not move. A wolfhound mourning his dead mistress did not come to a new mistress willingly. Delicately she wove Spirit and touched the part of him that contained her bond; it had to be delicate, or he would be aware of it, and only the Creator knew what sort of explosion might result.

 

"Come to me." This time the horse came forward.

[Lord of Chaos: Chapter 52 - Weaves of the Power]

 

By the by, I wouldn't trust Anne Bishop's idea of gender balance. She writes an interesting yarn, but third wave feminism is absurd, and moreover, as sexist as male chauvanism ever was.

 

Just my thoughts, as i think it has nothing to do with people holding the power when the bond is made

 

You misunderstood, it has nothing to do with whether a person is holding the power when the bond is made. The issue is whether a man is holding saidin when the attempt to compel him is made--and it is stated by Sammael that this is the case, so its a bit of a moot point, especially when added to the direct evidence of Rand's experience with Alanna.

 

As for Alana, i dont think the bond she put on him was anything more than a warder bond. See above for what i think of that. She was trying the woman bullying thing on her, which obviously doesnt work

 

Umm... the Warder bond contains compulsive elements. Moreover, where is this woman bullying bit?

 

Suddenly the warmth was heat, in one great flash as if he stood in the heartbeat of a roaring furnace. Even after it passed he felt odd, aware of himself as he had never been before, aware of Alanna. He swayed, head light, muscled watery. An echo of confusion and unease rang from Lews Therin.

 

"What did you do?" he demanded. In a fury he seized saidin. the strength of it helped keep him upright. "What did you do?"

 

Something beat at the flow between him and the True Source. They were trying to shield him! Weaving his own shields he slammed them into place. He truly had gone far since Verin had last seen him. Verin staggered, putting a hand on the table for support, and Alanna grunted as if he had punched her.

 

"What did you do?" Even deep in the cold emotionless Void as he was, his voice grated. "Tell me! I made no promises not to hurt you. If you do not tell me..."

 

"She bonded you." Verin said quickly. [bit about her regaining serentiy] "She bonded you as a Warder, that's all."

 

Alanna recovered her composure even faster. Shielded, she faced him calmly, a hitn of contentment about her eyes. Contentment! "I said I would not injure you, and I have done exactly the opposite of injury."

 

[Paragraph about him fuming and wanting to remain calm]

 

"You said you won't be going to Tar Valon. In that case, since you don't seem to kow where the rebels are, you can remain in Caemlyn." Alanna opened her mouth, but he overode her. "Be grateful I don't decide to tie off those shields and leave you like that!"

 

[Lord of Chaos: Chapter 10 - A Saying in the Borderlands]

 

Where is this bullying? Then we have Alanna comment to Kiruna.

 

"If you had to bond a man without asking him," Kiruna demanded in a comanding voice, "Why by the Light did you not use the bond to bend him to your will? Compared to the other that is a slap on the wrist."

 

[Alanna is angry, blah blah blah.]

 

"I tried to compel him moments after I bonded him," Alanna continued as if she had noticed none of it. "Have you ever tried to uproot an oak tree with your bare hands Kiruna? It was much the same."

 

[Lord of Chaos: Chapter 49 - Mist of Mirrors]

 

Altogether, no, its not a function of bullying, it's a function of the One Power. The reason it failed is the reason Sammael later states in PoD.

 

 

 

 

[Surreall]

luckers,

 

I stand corrected and fair play :)

 

You are right that i was getting confused and indeed from the examples given it is far more complicated than i had MADE myself believe. Maybe i had just wished to keep it simple so i could understand it better. Bring on another round of reading the series :)