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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

To Live, You Must Die


DubbleChrisP
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Now, this could very well mean that Rand dies, or there's a body swap et cetera, et cetera, but has anyone actually taken the time to think it through? Many of the prophecies such as this are cryptic, and don't mean what they mean on the surface.

 

My theory is this: to live, you must destroy who you are. The death of the soul, or the death of the personality of oneself is something that is pretty common in all sorts of poetry and things of the sort. It could very well be taken to mean that Rand must eradicate the person he has built himself to be--the hard, emotionless rock--so that he can live at Tarmon Gai'don. Min told Rand that he needs Cadsuane to teach him something, and Cadsuane says at one point that she is determined to teach him to laugh and cry again.

 

As soon as Rand relearns to accept emotion--happiness, sadness, grief for the dead, joy for the living--it could be said that the man he was has died, could it not? He would have been reborn. And it is only through this rebirth that he can hope to live at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Obviously my theory has holes in it. But it's an interesting line of thinking.

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Honestly this is feeling a lot like what happened in Harry Potter. Harry had to die in order to live and defeat Voldemort. It seems Rand will have to do much the same, he will have to die in some form or at least appear to. (body switch Maybe) By doing so that would give him the ability to use his full strength against the Dark One. Or perhaps to deliver a unexpected blow that will either imprison him again with out a taint on the one power. Or perminatly re-seal the bore as it was before Lanfear opened it to begin with.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

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I like this theory, I was never a fan of the whole body swap theory. Not to say either theory is right, I just definitely prefer this one. I just don't like the idea of Rand ending up in Moridin's body....I've always seen it as tainted somehow....like swapping faces with a mass murderer, people still see the mass murderer.

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Now, this could very well mean that Rand dies, or there's a body swap et cetera, et cetera, but has anyone actually taken the time to think it through? Many of the prophecies such as this are cryptic, and don't mean what they mean on the surface.

 

My theory is this: to live, you must destroy who you are. The death of the soul, or the death of the personality of oneself is something that is pretty common in all sorts of poetry and things of the sort. It could very well be taken to mean that Rand must eradicate the person he has built himself to be--the hard, emotionless rock--so that he can live at Tarmon Gai'don. Min told Rand that he needs Cadsuane to teach him something, and Cadsuane says at one point that she is determined to teach him to laugh and cry again.

 

As soon as Rand relearns to accept emotion--happiness, sadness, grief for the dead, joy for the living--it could be said that the man he was has died, could it not? He would have been reborn. And it is only through this rebirth that he can hope to live at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Obviously my theory has holes in it. But it's an interesting line of thinking.

One quick question. What other prophecies does this fulfill? Just "to live, you must die"? Because Luckers body swap theory was intentionally trying to cover a lot of different prophecies/foretellings/etc. For example, "he who is dead yet lives". What does your theory have to say about that? We have Egwene's Dreams, Min's viewings, and the Prophecies of the Dragon, of course, and all are predicting his future, so any theory should try to cover most, if not all, of those that haven't already been fulfilled.

 

I always kinda thought that it would just be that he dies a TG, cause in the end everyone that dies in WoT, lives again.
Wasn't much point in the Aelfinn saying it then, was there? More likely, for Rand (the individual, not the soul) to have a life past TG, must, in some way, die.
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Here is a thought.

 

Perhaps Rand does die at TG. We know almost without a doubt that he is a hero who will be spun out again and again as needed by the Pattern. In between the spinnings, however, we further know that he will be spending all his spare time in T'a'r. So my though is this:

 

Perhaps one of the Wonder Girls "finds" him (which would require his showing himself) and, similar to what happened with Birgitte, pulls him out of T'a'r and back into the real world. Unlike Birgitte, the remove wouldn't kill him (not sure how that could be accomplished, though) but it would  allow him to "live" again.

 

Not really sure that I believe this one myself. I give it into the hands of those more knowledgeable than myself to rip apart. 

 

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sadly, i still think "to live you must die" and "he who is dead yet lives" pertains to LTT. i believe it will actually be the dragon whose blood is spilled on the rocks of SG.LTT, not rand, who actually dies.

of course, nobody was ever foolish enough to cross balefire before, so who knows how this will ultimately effect the two men.

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Here is a thought.

 

Perhaps Rand does die at TG. We know almost without a doubt that he is a hero who will be spun out again and again as needed by the Pattern. In between the spinnings, however, we further know that he will be spending all his spare time in T'a'r. So my though is this:

 

Perhaps one of the Wonder Girls "finds" him (which would require his showing himself) and, similar to what happened with Birgitte, pulls him out of T'a'r and back into the real world. Unlike Birgitte, the remove wouldn't kill him (not sure how that could be accomplished, though) but it would  allow him to "live" again.

 

Not really sure that I believe this one myself. I give it into the hands of those more knowledgeable than myself to rip apart.  

 

Even if they have to rip him out of T'A'R before his time and he starts to die, as long as it is Elayne or Aviendia they could re-establish his "bond" with them and therefore allow him to "live again".

Like this theory, haven't heard this take on the prophecy before.

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Indeed, given the interactions between Rand and LTT we can almost state as a certainty that it would not be the Rand persona that manifests in TAR.

 

Lacking that persona, the Dragon soul has countless lady loves to remember. Why would he break the precepts, risk the complete removal of his soul from the cycle of hero rebirth for one cycles worth of women? And lacking such an intention, the girls would not be able to find him.

 

Furthermore, i rather doubt the girls would pull him back, even if they knew how. Its an act of such personal selfishness from women who know the prospective price paid by a soul removed in that manner... no, i simply do not see such a thing ocurring.

 

My original thought was in order for Rand to live Lews Therin must die.  I still think it makes the most sense.

 

Lews Therin is a facet personality of Rands soul. He cannot die unless Rand died. The best that can be hoped for, according to the worlds leading expert on this phenomena is the reintergration of the two personalities.

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The most recent life he lived should be having the biggest influence on his soul, though he would also be able to remember all the rest of his lives, like Birgitte.

 

My biggest problem with this theory is that it's too Jesus-like. Honestly, dead for X number of days, then, for all intents and purposes, resurrected as a spirit.  

 

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"To live you must die" I thought that it always meant Lews Therin was going to die and maybe this would destroy his soul or something, so he couldn't be reborn. I guess this is a stupid theory. Most of mine are.

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't." ACoS,Ch33 - Min to Rand.

 

I, also, always thought this meant Lews Therin because it seems the most likely at the time. I think I read somewhere this would be too good and that it had to be a bad thing, but if it is Lews Therin it isn't necesarily mean a good thing. I think it's in KoD that Rand thinks something along the lines of not wanting Lews Therin to go because he was his only friend in the box, or something like that. This also made me think the "To live, you must die" theory meant Lews Therin to die.

 

It could be the Moridin body swap idea as there is quite a lot of evidence pointing towards it. Like the connection made between when the balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, and the face popping up in Rands head, Min's viewing and Egwene's dream. 'Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.' TPoD,Ch15. There might be others but not sure. I still don't like the idea though.

 

I'm sticking with my original theory at the moment though, and sorry if this was a long post :-[, but just wanted to say my thoughts.  :)

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My original thought was in order for Rand to live Lews Therin must die.  I still think it makes the most sense.

 

I think Lews Therin will "die" and take the power of the dragon with him.  Rand will live on with the rest of the survivors of TG and will no longer have duty "heavier than a mountain" on his shoulders.

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Lews Therin is a facet personality of Rands soul. He cannot die unless Rand died. The best that can be hoped for, according to the worlds leading expert on this phenomena is the reintergration of the two personalities.

 

This is all fuzzy to me (I don't mean the quote from Lucker is fuzzy.  The nature of this soul is).  It's difficult to wrap my mind around two separate personalities that are in fact the same soul.  I've been wanting to start a discussion specifically about that but haven't been able to figure out how to structure it. 

 

By all rights LTT should be dead.  He should not be inhabiting Rand's body.  It is an abomination (for lack of a better word) that he is.  He believes that Rand is the imposter though.  He is also quite insane and he is hurting deeply.  They share a soul, but only one personification of that soul should be alive.  His death would allow him and Rand both to be at peace.  There may be a way for LTT to simply accept that he is dead and fade away.  Perhaps there is some forgiveness for him still.

 

The world's leading expert at reintigrating souls is Graendel right?  Isn't the information we have about that all in a Semirhage POV?  (I'm not criticizing...  I'm organizing my information  ;D).

 

It seems to me that the Birgitte in Randland today is not any single Birgitte that ever lived but rather the essense of the Birgitte soul in pysical form.  Any single Birgitte would have to be as different from another as Rand is from LTT.  This Birgitte is THE Birgitte.

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Wait...does anyone really think that this massive complicate plot would have something as abrupt as Rand swapping bodies with Moridin? And LTT being the one who died doesn't make sense, cause he is Rand, they are the exact same soul. I think it simply means that in order for him to Seal the DO's prison successfully without dying, he'll have to burn himself out. Many times, during the series, people say that they think of being without the OP as worse than death, and it would take away his identity as the Dragon Reborn, the role of the Dragon Reborn, dying.

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(un)fortunately, LTT is real. he attempts to control the body he inhibits, he shares his memories with rand and he has taught rand some pretty nifty tricks. this is not a muti-personality or disassociative disorder, LTT does exist.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nelal Hurcran, RJ was quite the devout Christian, and considering all the religious, mythological, and philosophical refrences he makes throughout the series, not including a Jesus figure would be just plain wrong.  Of course Rand is Jesus, hes the savior of all mankind.

 

It could also be as simple as to live in the next age you must die on this age...

 

thats pretty much how I saw it.  'to live you must be martyred.'  I think its a little known fact that if the DO were to 'win' and break the wheel, existence ceases.  the pattern is held taught by the wheel and if it were broken the whole pattern would unravel.  no one would die, they would cease to be...kinda like being balefired, only "TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!"  *snicker*

 

he must die to save the world, but in doing so he will be reborn, to live again.

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