Verin = Black Ajah? (few spoilers)

[nashdude]

I got this feeling the first time I read through the books, and now that I'm reading through a second time, it's starting again!

 

I just started tPoD again last night, and I've already started seeing troubling signs in Verin's demeanor. So I gotta ask... do yall think she's a darkfriend? Here's what I know...

 

--She has no problems whatsoever about... ummm... forcibly returning someone to the Wheel  ::) (reference her killing someone who tried to kill her in the past, and her smiling warmly at him as he died)

 

--She recalls her last serious mistake as being some seventy one years previous

 

--She owns a broach that she never wears, but has never been without in the past fifty years (there's a scene in a later book where a darkfriend vaguely matching Verin's description is wearing a similar broach)

 

--In tPoD, when Verin is questioning the Aes Sedai prisoners being held by the Aiel, she sticks only with those who have no Warders

 

--Even with her darkfriend-type tendencies, she invokes the Light in her private thoughts... something a darkfriend never does, or ruefully wishes they could still do

 

So here's what I'm thinking. Some seventy years ago or so, she swore to the DO, but now that she's seen the Dragon Reborn, she's trying to redeem herself by helping him. Thoughts?

[DubbleChrisP]

--Even with her darkfriend-type tendencies, she invokes the Light in her private thoughts... something a darkfriend never does, or ruefully wishes they could still do

 

That's a great point, there. Rather than her simply following the DR now and having been a Darkfriend in the past, perhaps she is working undercover as a Darkfriend for her own intents and purposes. She serves the DR wholeheartedly, and acts as a Darkfriend to find out what's happening on the other side, perhaps? Merely speculation, but it's an interesting line of thought.

[Digbe]

--She has no problems whatsoever about... ummm... forcibly returning someone to the Wheel   (reference her killing someone who tried to kill her in the past, and her smiling warmly at him as he died)

 

Can you give me a quick reminder please?

 

--She owns a broach that she never wears, but has never been without in the past fifty years (there's a scene in a later book where a darkfriend vaguely matching Verin's description is wearing a similar broach)

 

Ditto-- Can you give me a quick reminder please? When and where approximation if possible.  My memory seems to fail me @ times and this is yet another one.

 

So here's what I'm thinking. Some seventy years ago or so, she swore to the DO, but now that she's seen the Dragon Reborn, she's trying to redeem herself by helping him. Thoughts?

 

I share similiar sentiments.  An alliance of this nature would help explain some of her actions that have been considered controversial at times in lieu of her 3 oaths.

[Seriodor]

I like this theory. It actually makes sense. I definetly think its a possibility.

[bcxanth]

--She has no problems whatsoever about... ummm... forcibly returning someone to the Wheel  ::) (reference her killing someone who tried to kill her in the past, and her smiling warmly at him as he died)

There's nothing that keeps an AS from killing, just from killing with the Power. All she did is stab the guy, and he tried to kill her first. It was self-defense

 

--She recalls her last serious mistake as being some seventy one years previous

That really has no meaning what so ever in as far as if she is a DF.

 

--She owns a broach that she never wears, but has never been without in the past fifty years (there's a scene in a later book where a darkfriend vaguely matching Verin's description is wearing a similar broach)

You're going to have to pull up a quote for something like that, because I don't remember any DF sounding like Verin being seen.  As for the broach, it's an angreal/i]. Probably part of the cache of things she has that used to belong to that one AS who was the last Dreamwalker before Egwene.

 

--In tPoD, when Verin is questioning the Aes Sedai prisoners being held by the Aiel, she sticks only with those who have no Warders

Because she was using her imperfect form of Compulsion to bring them around to follow Rand, and she said that those without Warders were easier to do when she was tired, like she was in that PoV.

 

--Even with her darkfriend-type tendencies, she invokes the Light in her private thoughts... something a darkfriend never does, or ruefully wishes they could still do

 

So here's what I'm thinking. Some seventy years ago or so, she swore to the DO, but now that she's seen the Dragon Reborn, she's trying to redeem herself by helping him. Thoughts?

I just really don't see this theory as holding any water. Is Verin odd?  Of course. Is there something weird going on with her? Most definitely. But is she a DF?  No.

[nashdude]

--She has no problems whatsoever about... ummm... forcibly returning someone to the Wheel   (reference her killing someone who tried to kill her in the past, and her smiling warmly at him as he died)

 

Can you give me a quick reminder please?

 

Prologue, tPoD -- "Verin put on a warm smile. A fellow had once told her that her smile made him think of his dear mother. She hoped he had not been lying about that, at least. He had tried to slide a dagger between her ribs a little later, and her smile had been the last thing he ever saw."

 

As bcxanth said, she had killed him in self-defence. However, how many women who felt affection toward someone ("she hoped he had not been lying about that, at least...") could smile warmly at a man as she killed him?

 

--She owns a broach that she never wears, but has never been without in the past fifty years (there's a scene in a later book where a darkfriend vaguely matching Verin's description is wearing a similar broach)

 

Ditto-- Can you give me a quick reminder please? When and where approximation if possible.  My memory seems to fail me @ times and this is yet another one.

 

Prologue, tPoD -- "Absently she fingered a hard shape inside her belt pouch, a small broach, a translucent stone carved into what appeared to be a lily with too many petals. She never wore it, but it had not been out of her reach in nearly fifty years."

 

Again, bcxanth is right---it is an angreal. Thing is, though, a DF in a later book (WH?) wears a broach similar to that, and if I remember correctly, wears brown robes and matches a vague description of Verin. I'll repost that info when I find it in my read-through. (Guess I'd better bookmark this thread so I can find it when I get to that point hehe)

 

So here's what I'm thinking. Some seventy years ago or so, she swore to the DO, but now that she's seen the Dragon Reborn, she's trying to redeem herself by helping him. Thoughts?

 

I share similiar sentiments.  An alliance of this nature would help explain some of her actions that have been considered controversial at times in lieu of her 3 oaths.

 

My thoughts exactly. Had she been Black Ajah, her original Three Oaths would no longer bind her. But now realizing her mistake, she intends to see Rand win. But then again, there's her odd thought---"Somehow, she had to keep young Rand alive until it was time for him to die."---that doesn't really line up with actual support. Rather, she seems to be supporting him to serve her own ends.

 

I'll get that other description of the broach as soon as I can find it.

[drovja]

I don't think that Darkfriends, especially Black Ajah, can just change their mind like that.  And I know, I know... Ingtar repented.... but during the hunt for the Black Ajah by Pevarra(?) and co., they develop the idea that the Black Ajah has replaced the Three Oaths with Oaths of their own.

 

EDIT:for spelling

[Seriodor]

I think they can repent, but the inherent qualities that make them become darkfriends in the first place keep them from doing so.

[bjclinton]

here's my biggest problem w/ this theory.....

 

the DO can very easily locate any darkfriends. why wouldn't he have sent someone to "deal with her?"

 

A few people above have mentioned with confidence that this brooch is an angreal. is that a theory, or do we have confirmation on that?

[lou]

i have no idea if the broach is an angreal or a gift from her mother.it is a strange reference not to be confirmed. i wonder if it is connected to the code she writes in.perhaps it contains the siphor to her codes.

[Cybertrolloc]

--She owns a broach that she never wears, but has never been without in the past fifty years (there's a scene in a later book where a darkfriend vaguely matching Verin's description is wearing a similar broach)

She doesn't wear it. But she did especially for that scene ;) :o

 

It's an angreal, that's specified in the PoD prologue. There's something else about it in the Cleansing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Check this:

 

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

 

Verin is not Black Ajah.  There are alot of other things she could be, but she isn't a Black.

[Davian93]

Verin is not Black Ajah

 

All the clues about Verin are what we call a nice big school of red herring.  She is most definitely not a Darkfriend.

[bjclinton]

awesome link....love having all the Verinisms in one place.

 

However, i didn't see anything in there compelling enough to convince me one way or another...i may lean in one direction vs another, but there is no hard-core evidence, and its obvious that it was written that way.

 

what I find most interesting of all is that through all of her actions, Verin thinks "That the Dragon Reborn must live till Tarmon Gai'don."

 

....not survive Tarmon Gai'don, not win Tarmon Gai'don...live till it. 

 

a very interesting choice of words from someone who choses her words very carefully.

 

Couple that with the fact that Moiraine tells Rand not to trust her (no matter how you spin it, that much is very clear), and some of the other very suspicious and self-motivating acts that she's been seen in throughout the series, I think she's probably the most intriguing character in the entire series and just about more than anything that will be revealed in AMOL, I cannot WAIT to see what her deal is.

 

(edited for spelling)

[lou]

i dont believe verin is a DF, but her scruples are questionable, and her motivations are unclear. this is why the suspicion. she writes everything down that she notes, written in a code that only she has the siphor for. people only hide things when they dont want to be caught doing something they clearly know is wrong, or can be percieved so. the semi-compulsion that she uses on the AS can clearly be punishable by tower law with stilling (she is a seasoned AS, so there is no question she knows this is wrong). though she may have killed in self defense, she certainly had no remorse for doing so, most people would. she thinks casually about drugging (or worse) cadsuane. i dont know who verin truly serves, but she is not an innocent by any stretch.

[Setalle]

Good link, I agree, but it doesn't convince me, either. The worst thing I have read of her doing was Compelling all those sisters to swear to Rand. If I was trying to help him, I definitely would not get the ones who captured him to swear to him. I would think that an oath should come from the heart, right?  ;)

Everything I have read and reread has convinced me that she is a darkfriend. And if she isn't, then she puts on a good show.

[Guest leebarr]

the way she acts and some of the things she says makes me beleive she is black

[knutz]

Verin is a younger Cadsuane. Sort of a 007 of Aes Sedai. All Aes Sedai have secrets, and all have at some point broken tower law. Verin most likely breaks it on a daily basis. I do believe that none know the prophecies better than her. She knows about the "Wolf King" and the "Fox". Many haven't even thought of looking up the purpose of the 2 other tavereen but most likely Verin got it right when she first read them as a little girl.

 

Her agenda is hard to figure. I don't think she cares much about saving the world, or about the White tower. I'm sure she thinks Cadsuane is a darkfriend, and taking New Spring into account, so does Morraine. Of course Cadsuane thinks Morraine is Black as well.

 

I'm off on a tangent again. No Verin is not a darkfriend. She's just way too polite and that creeps people out.