Gritting my teeth against Rand being so sexist

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Why is Rand so ridiculously sexist?  ??? That whole list of women whose deaths he blames himself for is way overkill. I don't understand why he feels worse for the death of a darkfriend woman than for a loyal Aielman who died for him. It just makes no sense that he can't kill a woman but can kill a man. It's driving me nuts...if it was just Rand I could attribute it to a thick skull, but Perrin and Mat seem to harbor the same feelings! Does anyone understand that whole "worse to kill a woman" thing? It just seems so fake to me. How dare he base his level of guilt for a death on gender!  >:(

 

It's almost insulting, as if he believes the woman did not stand as good of a chance. The Maidens seem to get a tad frustrated with this, but they don't sweat over it. If anyone can possibly explain Rand's attitude, please do, because my brain will soon turn to mush fuming over it.

[dubz]

I don't think it has anything to do with being sexist.  It has to do with how he was raised.  He was raised to believe that violence should not be done to women.  I was also raised this way and totally agree with the two rivers' boys.  I would much rather kill a man than a women (not that I want to kill a man or a woman).

 

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

definition

 

sexism (n) discrimination based on gender

 

Yeah...that's pretty discriminatory if one would cringe from killing a woman more than they would cringe from killing a man.

[Vambram]

Perhaps so, but millions of people around the world today are raised in such a way that they would never do violence towards women, if at all possible. Honestly? I have no problem with that attitude.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sure, its sexist.  And its unhealthy.  But really, I think there are worse flaws in the world than a desire to protect women.

[Zardi]

It's almost insulting, as if he believes the woman did not stand as good of a chance.

Nah, I don't think that's it. In fact, Rand thinks to himself at least once that it's ridiculous how he refuses to let the Maidens fight, because they can surely handle themselves. He knows it doesn't make sense, but he can't get past the way he was raised. Also, I don't remember the Two Rivers men actually ever thinking that women are inferior in any way. If they did, that fact would have come through by now.

 

Rand takes this protection business to an extreme that Mat and Perrin never reach (Mat kills a woman, he feels terrible, but he gets over it), but that is due to his psychological problems. Healthy people don't torture themselves with the names of dead women.

 

Anyway, while his behavior is annoying at times, it never occurred to me as something to get angry over. I think the sexism coming from some of the girls, especially Egwene, is far worse, since it actually comes from feelings of superiority over men. I am hardly Egwene's biggest fan, however, so maybe I'm being too hard on her ::)

[Darth_Andrea]

I am a woman and i find it extreamly hard to hit another woman. I work as a security officer and have from time to time had to knock a head or two and I always hesitate when it comes to a female suspect.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[BrainFireBob]

Someone missed the boat.

 

LTT murdered his wife. Rather brutally.

 

Rand's birth mother had to die for him to be born. His adoptive mother died when he had hardly any memories of her, and since he's so worried in EotW, like most children, he seems to have blamed himself somehow.

 

Guess what? They're all his mother. He keeps killing his mother. You wonder why he obsesses?

[Zardi]

LTT murdered his wife. Rather brutally.

Right...but that's part of the psychological problems I mentioned. Rand as himself, before LTT started creeping into his head, did not know or care about Illyena, yet his aversion to hurting women already existed. It's how Two Rivers men are raised.

 

Rand's birth mother had to die for him to be born.

What difference does that make? He didn't know about that until TSR, but his aversion to hurting women started well before that (again, that's how they're bred in the TR). He also hasn't really thought about his birth mother since LoC. What makes you think it's having a major effect?

 

His adoptive mother died when he had hardly any memories of her, and since he's so worried in EotW, like most children, he seems to have blamed himself somehow.

Where does it say that he blames himself? I've never gotten that impression at all.

[trakand01]

It isnt sexism in my book, its actually quite touching. He was raised to protect women (as the majority of the world should be) not to place them in situations of danger and certainly not to hurt them or cause harm to them. For so many women to have died because of him must be soul-destroying for him.

 

Remember - the books are not set in this world 2007 where women and men alike join the army, go out on the streets on a saturday night and fight, it is Randland, where the men go join the army, the women raise children and keep the home; that's just how it is. I'm sure he doesnt LIKE men dying for him but he understands that soldiers die. Soldiers are killed in battle. Women are not normally soldiers in his day and age and so they shouldnt die.

 

I really dont think we can apply too many modern 'isms' to the books - they are not meant to represent modern times, viewpoints are completely different and are meant to be. If we're going down that route Nynaeve and Elayne are incredibly sexist - they see men as lesser, stupid and not be left with too much responsibility. Not to mention the Reds, who take it just that step further...

 

I also agree with Zardi - the experience that he and LTT combined have had of women dying for and because of him must cause some sort of mental 'issue'!

[BrainFireBob]

Doublecheck when he began keeping his list. Hint: After he learns of Tigraine.

 

You realize that since she was a Maiden, and the Maidens have adopted him as a son, that he's responding to that? They're all his mother figure?

 

As to Kari- Ba'alzamon's threat that she was his (thereby implying she was a plant who died for her connection to him) is something Rand fears- he fears it because it seems to him it might be true. This only correlates if he's afraid, like small children whose parents divorce, that Kari's dying is somehow his fault for not being good enough- something Tam's not talking about her would emphasize.

[Zardi]

Doublecheck when he began keeping his list. Hint: After he learns of Tigraine.

Sure, it happens sometime after he learns his mother's identity, but so do a lot of things. If I remember correctly, he starts torturing himself with the list while he's trapped in the chest, with no one to keep him company but LTT. So really, this gives more credence to your Ilyena theory than to Tigraine. Ilyena is on the list (put there by LTT). Moiraine heads the list. Colavaere is eventually added, as are many Maidens, a random village woman killed during an assassination attempt on Rand, and the Darkfriend Rand killed in TDR (I think). I don't recall Tigraine being on the list at all.

 

You realize that since she was a Maiden, and the Maidens have adopted him as a son, that he's responding to that? They're all his mother figure?

That could have some effect, but you seem to be forgetting that 1) he was raised to believe he should lay down his life for any woman, and 2) he's going a bit crazy. If it were only Maidens that Rand was obsessed with protecting, then I'd say you probably have the right of it. But it isn't just Maidens, it's all women. And it started before he ever met an Aiel.

 

As to Kari- Ba'alzamon's threat that she was his (thereby implying she was a plant who died for her connection to him) is something Rand fears- he fears it because it seems to him it might be true. This only correlates if he's afraid, like small children whose parents divorce, that Kari's dying is somehow his fault for not being good enough- something Tam's not talking about her would emphasize.

I...don't follow your logic. Rand thought the DO had his mother's soul, but somehow that could only scare him if he thought he was responsible for his mother's death? When Ba'alzamon made his threat, Rand didn't yet know his own significance. And when Kari died, no one knew that Rand was significant at all. So how could Rand make the connection that Kari was killed and brought to the DO simply for knowing him? Wouldn't they have killed Tam too? And Rand himself, for that matter? Unless what you say is more strongly implied in the text and I just don't remember it (which is possible), then I think you're reaching a bit here.

 

It seems silly that we view this as a matter of social value or merit, when it is in fact simply a representation of only one difference between the sexes. For thousands of years, men have cared for and protected their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters. Every man worth the air he breaths would lay his life down without thought for a woman in need. And for that men are considered sexist?

It's sexist because it's a ridiculous generalization. Women who can channel are just as capable of defending themselves as men who can channel. The Maidens are just as capable of defending themselves as the other Aiel warriors are (societies make fun of each other, but none has ever suggested that the Maidens are less skillful warriors than any other). What about Darkfriends? Should Mat, or Bashere, or some Tairen fisherman lay down his life to save Graendal's, if she were in need? Just because she's a woman?

 

Should a scrawny, 100-pound man leap into a brawl to protect a muscular woman twice his size? Even though she is far more capable of defending herself? Why not just say that the strong should defend the weak, and leave gender out of it?

 

Call it what you will, but the death of a woman is a far sadder thing that that of a man.

Why? The saddest deaths are those of children, because they haven't lived yet, but girls aren't any sadder than boys. Is the death of a 90-year-old woman, who dies in her sleep after a long and happy life, really sadder than the death of an 18-year-old "man," whose life is just beginning? Just because she's a woman? What about the death of a childless, unmarried woman, vs. the death of a father of three young children?

 

Kaffa, while I admit that your attitude is far preferable to the one that women must be cared for because we are childlike and ignorant (sort of like Egwene thinks about men), I still don't understand it. At least Rand admits to himself that his attitude is silly when it comes to women who can defend themselves. You haven't ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

That could have some effect, but you seem to be forgetting that 1) he was raised to believe he should lay down his life for any woman, and 2) he's going a bit crazy. If it were only Maidens that Rand was obsessed with protecting, then I'd say you probably have the right of it. But it isn't just Maidens, it's all women. And it started before he ever met an Aiel.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself (but I'll add more anyway, because I'm a guy  ;D ).

 

"A man who will not not die to save a woman is no man."  That phrase didn't originate with Rand, and it was spouted long before he ever met a Maiden.

 

His problem with women and death only became pathological when Lews Therin's personality began emerging more fully.  This emergence coincided with a number of other things (discoveries about his past, torturous episodes with Aes Sedai), and was probably hastened by exposure to the taint (which also could tip what was a possibly quaint but relatively harmless sort of idea about protecting women over the edge into a very damaging obsession).

 

Addressing the principle in general ...

 

In most physical situations, men are bigger and stronger than women.  Of course exceptions exist, and a highly trained woman like [insert Maiden of your choice] could take a man like, say, Halwin Norry, apart in moments.  But as much as some women hate the idea, if we had an all-out gender brawl, the guys would win.  Hands down.

 

So, because women are very necessary, for reasons that have nothing to do with fighting ability, societies develop social protections for them.  Rand's attitude in the early books, and Mat and Perrin's attitudes toward women, are a reflection of that sort of social imperative.  It is a generalization, but I'm not sure I would call it a ridiculous one.  Women who can channel are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves ... but women who can channel make up a very small percentage (1%) of the female populace.  The idea that men, in general, have a responsibility for the physical protection of women, in general, is not bad for society (real or fantastical) as long as that idea is divorced from an idea of male domination in return for that protection.

 

Of course, the best philosophy here is to understand that while men and women are undeniably different, they make one heck of a team.  If a man spends his time guarding his woman with his skills, and a woman spends her time guarding her man with her skills, they make a much more formidable force together.  Tuon and Mat are much more dangerous than either Tuon or Mat.  Ditto Perrin and Faile.  Ditto Lan and Moiraine in the past, and Lan and Nynaeve now.  And boy oh boy, just wait for Moiraine and Thom ...

[Lune]

The whole 'zomg these women died for me *angst!*' thing is pretty annoying to me too. People often talk about how women are less suited to violence and are meant to be protected seem to overlook some things. To cite a WoT example, Juilin has had the experience to not underestimate a woman. Thinking that one woman wouldn't be so eager to try and kill him because of her gender was a mistake since she stuck him like a pig. Plus after that incident in Tear, I don't think he'd have any hesitation about cracking Liandrin over the head with his stick if he had the chance.

 

some of the most heinous crimes you hear about are committed by women. They are very often underestimated simply because they don't go about their business in the gruff roaring fashion of men.

[Charlz Guybon]

Why is Rand so ridiculously sexist?  ??? That whole list of women whose deaths he blames himself for is way overkill. I don't understand why he feels worse for the death of a darkfriend woman than for a loyal Aielman who died for him. It just makes no sense that he can't kill a woman but can kill a man. It's driving me nuts...if it was just Rand I could attribute it to a thick skull, but Perrin and Mat seem to harbor the same feelings! Does anyone understand that whole "worse to kill a woman" thing? It just seems so fake to me. How dare he base his level of guilt for a death on gender!  >:(

 

It's almost insulting, as if he believes the woman did not stand as good of a chance. The Maidens seem to get a tad frustrated with this, but they don't sweat over it. If anyone can possibly explain Rand's attitude, please do, because my brain will soon turn to mush fuming over it.

 

We are all products of the societies we were raised in. They were raised in a matriarchal society that forbade and stigmatized violence against women. It's only natural that they feel more guilt about this violence done against women, than violence done against men, given this upbringing.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

I don't know how to properly quote a quote,

 

but AMEN to everything Zardi said at the top of page 2!

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Just click on the quote button at the right hand corner of the post you want to quote.

 

Anyways, here is something I find interesting: Instead of a patriarchal society like the one we live in, Randlanders find themselves in a matriarchal society, primarily because men who can channel are a danger.

 

So wouldn't you think that instead of the males being protective of the females, as they are in real life (and were particularly in the past, chivalrous times), that the females should be the ones taking care of the men?

 

Anyways, I guess it does make sense that the men in Randland still feel the need to be chivalrous, since only about 1% of the population can channel, so most women would still need protection.

 

Also, when it comes down to it, although "discrimination" may seem to carry a negative connotation, I don't think being sexist is all that bad. At least, to the extent that we are protective of females.

 

Because they aren't stronger, as a whole, than men. And men probably don't always make the wisest choices, compared to females, since men are so testosterone-driven.

 

I envision a man as a doer and a woman as a thinker, though of course, there is considerable overlap.

 

I think that if men protect women with their abilities, and women protect men with their abilities, we would all be a lot better off than by trying to make it on our own.

 

 

But you know, of course, that the patriarchal society we live in today is probably result of the Catholic Church trying to further the idea of females as the "weaker sex," in an attempt to suppress worship of "pagan" fertility deities. Or at least, this is what I believe.

 

Although I think the feminist movement may be going a bit overboard, because I don't think men can do what women can do necessarily, and I don't think women can do what men do necessarily.

[BrainFireBob]

Doublecheck when he began keeping his list. Hint: After he learns of Tigraine.

Sure, it happens sometime after he learns his mother's identity, but so do a lot of things. If I remember correctly, he starts torturing himself with the list while he's trapped in the chest, with no one to keep him company but LTT. So really, this gives more credence to your Ilyena theory than to Tigraine. Ilyena is on the list (put there by LTT). Moiraine heads the list. Colavaere is eventually added, as are many Maidens, a random village woman killed during an assassination attempt on Rand, and the Darkfriend Rand killed in TDR (I think). I don't recall Tigraine being on the list at all.

 

You realize that since she was a Maiden, and the Maidens have adopted him as a son, that he's responding to that? They're all his mother figure?

That could have some effect, but you seem to be forgetting that 1) he was raised to believe he should lay down his life for any woman, and 2) he's going a bit crazy. If it were only Maidens that Rand was obsessed with protecting, then I'd say you probably have the right of it. But it isn't just Maidens, it's all women. And it started before he ever met an Aiel.

 

As to Kari- Ba'alzamon's threat that she was his (thereby implying she was a plant who died for her connection to him) is something Rand fears- he fears it because it seems to him it might be true. This only correlates if he's afraid, like small children whose parents divorce, that Kari's dying is somehow his fault for not being good enough- something Tam's not talking about her would emphasize.

I...don't follow your logic. Rand thought the DO had his mother's soul, but somehow that could only scare him if he thought he was responsible for his mother's death? When Ba'alzamon made his threat, Rand didn't yet know his own significance. And when Kari died, no one knew that Rand was significant at all. So how could Rand make the connection that Kari was killed and brought to the DO simply for knowing him? Wouldn't they have killed Tam too? And Rand himself, for that matter? Unless what you say is more strongly implied in the text and I just don't remember it (which is possible), then I think you're reaching a bit here.

 

It seems silly that we view this as a matter of social value or merit, when it is in fact simply a representation of only one difference between the sexes. For thousands of years, men have cared for and protected their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters. Every man worth the air he breaths would lay his life down without thought for a woman in need. And for that men are considered sexist?

It's sexist because it's a ridiculous generalization. Women who can channel are just as capable of defending themselves as men who can channel. The Maidens are just as capable of defending themselves as the other Aiel warriors are (societies make fun of each other, but none has ever suggested that the Maidens are less skillful warriors than any other). What about Darkfriends? Should Mat, or Bashere, or some Tairen fisherman lay down his life to save Graendal's, if she were in need? Just because she's a woman?

 

Should a scrawny, 100-pound man leap into a brawl to protect a muscular woman twice his size? Even though she is far more capable of defending herself? Why not just say that the strong should defend the weak, and leave gender out of it?

 

Call it what you will, but the death of a woman is a far sadder thing that that of a man.

Why? The saddest deaths are those of children, because they haven't lived yet, but girls aren't any sadder than boys. Is the death of a 90-year-old woman, who dies in her sleep after a long and happy life, really sadder than the death of an 18-year-old "man," whose life is just beginning? Just because she's a woman? What about the death of a childless, unmarried woman, vs. the death of a father of three young children?

 

Kaffa, while I admit that your attitude is far preferable to the one that women must be cared for because we are childlike and ignorant (sort of like Egwene thinks about men), I still don't understand it. At least Rand admits to himself that his attitude is silly when it comes to women who can defend themselves. You haven't ;)

 

Two things:

 

1) Read some psychology.

 

2) Rand's issue with the Maidens predates being trapped in the chest.

[bcxanth]

One other thing to throw in here, but the Two Rivers view of protecting women isn't unique. You have the exact same attitude in Fal Dara, and from some of the things in New Spring I'd say Malkier was the same.  It's called chivalry, and it's something that many men even to this day try to practice in some way. It has nothing to do with feeling that women are inferior. It has to do with feeling that women are so important that making sure they are protected should be the first priority.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I definitely concur with that.

 

 

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Call it "chivalry" if you want, sexism is sexism. There is nothing a man can do that a woman cannot. The attitute that men should protect women is incredibly 17th century, and it sickens me to see that certain people still want to follow it. For all the guys out there who agree with Rand's notion to some degree, would you not feel insulted if some group of people out there wanted to protect you especially because they thought you were weaker? Whatever happened to equality?

 

 

Now that some people have metioned it, most of the Randland characters are pretty sexist, both the women and men. In fact, I cannot think of one major character off the top of my head who seems to believe in complete equality for men and women. I'm hoping RJ doesn't take his characters' views...

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

One other thing to throw in here, but the Two Rivers view of protecting women isn't unique. You have the exact same attitude in Fal Dara, and from some of the things in New Spring I'd say Malkier was the same.  It's called chivalry, and it's something that many men even to this day try to practice in some way. It has nothing to do with feeling that women are inferior. It has to do with feeling that women are so important that making sure they are protected should be the first priority.

 

More "important"? Give me a break. We protect children and the elderly because they are more vulnerable than adults in their prime years. To put women in the group that needs protection is to say that we are also more vulnerable. And that is an incredibly false generalization. In our world and WoT.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Call it "chivalry" if you want, sexism is sexism. There is nothing a man can do that a woman cannot. The attitute that men should protect women is incredibly 17th century, and it sickens me to see that certain people still want to follow it. For all the guys out there who agree with Rand's notion to some degree, would you not feel insulted if some group of people out there wanted to protect you especially because they thought you were weaker? Whatever happened to equality?

 

 

Now that some people have metioned it, most of the Randland characters are pretty sexist, both the women and men. In fact, I cannot think of one major character off the top of my head who seems to believe in complete equality for men and women. I'm hoping RJ doesn't take his characters' views...

 

Well, first of all, if you want to debate sexism, create a thread in General Discussion about it, and we can talk then (tell us if you do, because I wouldn't mind talking about it, its just this is not the place.)

 

Second of all, glad you noticed that the women in the books are sexist too. I can't remember how many times a woman (Egwene of Nynaeve or someone else) says something like "Men!" with a harrumph. Or even the little catechism about "There is no fire so fierce that wind cannot snuff it out, no rock that water cannot wear away." seems a little sexist too. It's how the women make themselves and their abilities seem better.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Granted that the women have their own issues, but none of them are neurotic enough to compare to Rand, with his list of dead women.

[Charlz Guybon]

Call it "chivalry" if you want, sexism is sexism. There is nothing a man can do that a woman cannot. The attitute that men should protect women is incredibly 17th century, and it sickens me to see that certain people still want to follow it. For all the guys out there who agree with Rand's notion to some degree, would you not feel insulted if some group of people out there wanted to protect you especially because they thought you were weaker? Whatever happened to equality?

 

 

Now that some people have metioned it, most of the Randland characters are pretty sexist, both the women and men. In fact, I cannot think of one major character off the top of my head who seems to believe in complete equality for men and women. I'm hoping RJ doesn't take his characters' views...

 

Have you forgotten the setting of the story? It is the 17th century, with the exception of the military technology, where it's the 14th. You are making a big mistake judging the characters by modern standards.

 

Most women are physically, significantly weaker than men. In a society were weapons  can only be wielded to effect with physical strength, women will be at the mercy of men.  That's why societies create these kinds of ethical codes. Society in the WoT has been more successful at indoctrinating chivalry than in medieval Europe because of the supernatural taint that men bear in the WoT.

 

If one were to look at it objectively, the quality of life for women in the WoT is much greater than that of women in medieval and renaissance Europe. They are much safer and have much more political influence at all levels of society.