Verin and her 70 year project

[Jonn]

"What you could. You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not. "

 

"I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand.

 

I have not yet managed to find the quote where Verin actually says "Moiraine sent me." But this makes it clear that it was a LIE.

 

 

"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might

need me. Such a gallop I've had. I thought I might not catch you short of Cairhien. You saw that village, of

course? Oh, that was very nasty, wasn't it? And that Myrddraal. There were ravens and crows all over the

rooftops, but never a one went near it, dead as it was. I had to wave away the Dark One's own weight in flies,

though, before I could make out what it was. A shame I did not have time to take it down. I've never had a

chance to study a-" Suddenly her eyes narrowed, and the absent manner vanished like smoke. "Where is Rand

al'Thor?"

 

-The Great Hunt, Chapter 14, "Wolf brother"

 

I think it was noted that Verin also left her warder behind.

 

Also if you look at Verin's encounter with Egwene and Nynaeve before she left the Amyrlin's caravan, you can see that she was doing her trick with them.

She even mentions having spoken to Moiraine about the two of them. Now, why pray tell would someone like Moiraine discuss anything openly with Verin? Verin even mentions this.

 

"You should stay," Verin said. "You could profit by it. From what Moiraine has told me, it should take

only a little training for you to be raised to the Accepted."

 

"Well, Moiraine has never believed in telling anyone anything they did not need to know. Knowing

serves no real purpose, but then, neither does not knowing. Myself, I always prefer knowing to not."

 

 

[Cockta]

"What you could. You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not. "

 

"I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand.

 

I have not yet managed to find the quote where Verin actually says "Moiraine sent me." But this makes it clear that it was a LIE.

 

Nailed! Now we know that Verin is Black Ajah!

[Luckers]

Well, if that was a straight-out lie, than she is a darkfriend, or at least not bound to the Three Oaths. If it is a lie, we can never know, well, only if a member here knows the answer.

 

Unfortunately we know that she is indeed bound by the oaths. However she managed to achieve that comment, she did it--my point was in addressing the purpose of the general deception.

 

Luckers, I'm not sure I agree with you here... Although removing Moiraine from the picture may have been, in part, giving Rand room to grow as a leader, I think it was done thematically for the most part, specifically, to help drive Rand's obsession with women who have died over the edge... After all, which name is (paraphrasing here) 'written in fire' at the top of his litany of names? And if she hadn't 'died' fighting Lanfear 'because Rand was too weak'...would he be as obsessed as he is about the litany?

 

Removing Moiraine, and re-introducing her, will play that exact part as you say--nevertheless in terms of the narative, removing Moiraine was just as a nessasary as removing Gandalf, or removing Dumbledore. The wise leader figure must be surpassed. Moiraine's disapearence from the plot was nessasary.

 

Lukers,

I might also add that RJ seems to have replaced Moiraine with Cadsuane if we go by your model of what Rand is in need of in the narrative.

 

I actually believe that Rand didnt exactly lean on Moiraine as a crutch anyway. He seemed to start accept her position as an advisor, so long as he was the one asking for her guidance on a matter.

 

And this, I dont think, was a problem for Moiraine. I think she had to disappear because she knew her primary goal at the time was to defeat Lanfear. The secondary part was to ensure that Rand did not go after her, as he would be compelled to do so as evidenced by the burning litany Llewin has mentioned.

 

 

Well there are two things to that Jonn. One, a significant amount of time passed without Rand having any guiding figures--which does allow for the reintergration of one. Rand needed to grow in himself, and whilst he had a crutch in Moiraine he couldn't do that--and jumping to your second point for a moment, im not suggesting that he did any of that, but the reality remained that in the back of his mind he was aware that she was watching and guiding events--it was that that led to their confrontations, but it also provided a crutch. He had followed her, and for all that he rebelled against following her again, he was aware.

 

None of the other characters provided that, no matter how talented. He had already moved beyond them--but Moiraine, there was still that degree there, she had once led him--and if worst comes to worst, she could again. That needed to be removed.

 

That wasn't nessasarily what i meant by the way of Verin's intentions--she was acting to stop Moiraine from coming out on top, and that had already happened by Tear--as your own comments show.

 

The second point about Cadsuane though, is that her methodology is different to Moirane's. Even in the end Moiraine thought she knew better--she had realised that he was the leader, and submitted to that, but still she was forceful in her own positions. Cadsuane's forceful in everything, but she doesn't push if you can understand that distinction. She won't pull back from calling someone a fool, but she holds no expectation that they must in the end come to agree with her. She says what she thinks, but in the end backs Rand's actions to the hilt. She did not replace Moiraine, and does not fill the role Moiraine filled.

 

Nailed! Now we know that Verin is Black Ajah!

 

Sadly my friend, we know as a fact that Verin is not black ajah. However she managed that particular deception, it was not through not being bound by the oaths--for indeed we know she is.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nailed! Now we know that Verin is Black Ajah!

 

Parse the situation like an Aes Sedai.

 

( By letting you three go off on your own ) Moiraine sent me.

 

ie. Moiraine sent her by the actions she took not by the words she said.  It's not Verin's fault that nobody asked the right questions.

 

TDR - Awakenings:

..."An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth an Aes Sedai tells you isn't always the truth you think it is...

[ThebigeyeAm]

yeah 'moiraine sent me' is very vague.she could have sent her to the shops 6 weeks since!providing moiraine sent her somewhere at bsome time makes this not a lie.although i like the idea that she is free of atleast 1 of the oaths.also grandpaG posted earlier on this thread a conversation between gitaro and verin, is this a true quote or not as i cant remember reading it in a new spring!id like to think it is real as im basing alot of my thinking arround that conversation

 

      much love

      ya dig

[Jonn]

Yeah, read the rest of the quote.

 

"She thought you might need me."

 

Think about what Verin does. How does she know what Moiraine thinks?

 

Note that she never said that Moiraine "told me" to come and help them. She said Moiraine sent her when we know off the bat that Moiraine has no formal relationship or agreement with Verin. So why would it be implied that Moiraine had the authority or inclination to send Verin to do anything.

 

Yet flash forward to The Fires of Heaven in Moiraine's letter to Rand. Moiraine warns Rand not to trust any woman who wears the shawl be she Alviarhin or Verin. Clearly she meant to draw a comparison between the two, but who did she mean to imply being the least trustworthy between the two?

 

Interesting questions, I'd say.

 

Could this be a clue? Alviarhin is known to us to be Black Ajah. Verin, we are obviously not so sure.

[Luckers]

Frankly, no it wasn't a clue. Moiraine was making a simple point to Rand--trust no Aes Sedai, not Alviarin who Rand had the most specific reason to mistrust, to Verin, who had the most specific reason to trust.

 

It was a comment in contrasts, and it was directly linked to Rand's experiences. Moiraine wasn't making secret messages, she was saying from what you think is the worst (Alviarin) to what you think is the best (Verin), trust none of them.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

yeah 'moiraine sent me' is very vague.she could have sent her to the shops 6 weeks since!providing moiraine sent her somewhere at bsome time makes this not a lie.

 

I never thought of it this way buy it makes perfect sense. This may just be it.

[ThebigeyeAm]

i think there could be a link between verins plan and cadsuanes mistake that happened 70 years ago.

[muddasssir]

well i don't know but may be she is messana we still haven't found out who she is but she is at tower i know its stupid but wht the heck lol

[Mr Ares]

well i don't know but may be she is messana we still haven't found out who she is but she is at tower i know its stupid but wht the heck lol

Mesaana is in the Tower. Verin isn't. Also, we have Verin POVs that indicate that she is Verin, not someone else, and that she is still bound by the First Oath, and thus is not a Chosen or BA, because neither of them would be.

[RAND AL THOR]

well i don't know but may be she is messana we still haven't found out who she is but she is at tower i know its stupid but wht the heck lol

 

Is this supposed to suggest that Verin is Messana?

omg I need to take 20 deep breaths and meditate immediately.

Oom  Oom Oom Oom Oom.....calm....calm....calm...

[maximuswynn]

She still ahs a major role to play. This I Foretell...

[Xar]

In my third re-read of WOT i stumbled upon the phrase of Verin and her 70 year old project. A search on Dragonmount brought up this topic. 22 pages long i must admit i did;nt read al of them. I hope te re-activate this topic and combine our knowledge to find out what Verin is up to. There  are a lot of theories but still remains unclear if i'm not mistaking:

 

- What is her project?

- Where lies her alliegence?

- Is it HER project or is she working with others?

 

Could there be another secret Ajah that Verin is part of that is only dedicated to seeing that the Last Battle will be won for the light? If she took another Oath for this reason could that make it possible for her to lie?

[rhadamanthus]

I generally agree with Luckers.  Verin's project is almost certainly to make sure that all three tavern find their way to Tarmon Gai'don with the Aes Sedai as support.  She is not above manipulation in this end (i.e., she is not trusting things to just happen appropriately).  She will take action as needed, wherever it is needed, to see that all three of the ta'vern are there in their own ways.  No doubt, this is tied in some way to Corianen's notes.  She does not give them to Egwene either because she is not sure that Egwene would react appropriately (she is stubborn and prideful), or, alternatively, the notes also indicated the split and Egwene's rise to power.  Bad idea to inform someone of their future in such a way (recall the dreamwalkers speech in tSR to Moiraine).

[Mr Ares]

Could there be another secret Ajah that Verin is part of that is only dedicated to seeing that the Last Battle will be won for the light?

No. She might do it by herself, but no secret Ajahs.

If she took another Oath for this reason could that make it possible for her to lie?

No. We have seen what happens when two Oaths contradict. She would have to remove the Oath against untruth, and she hasn't.

[Xar]

Thanks for replying rhadamanthus and Mr Ares.

 

Could there be another secret Ajah that Verin is part of that is only dedicated to seeing that the Last Battle will be won for the light?

No. She might do it by herself, but no secret Ajahs.

If she took another Oath for this reason could that make it possible for her to lie?

No. We have seen what happens when two Oaths contradict. She would have to remove the Oath against untruth, and she hasn't.

 

Are these confirmed facts i.e. by RJ or is this your opinion?

 

Another quote from Verin is also lightly disturbing in chapter 11 of LoC Verin reflect ons Rhand's power and say's (translated from dutch):

 

"How many sister would be needed to shield him and control him. All thirteen? Normaly it was only a habit but with him it could actualy be needed. It would at least have to be considered for a next time."

 

I don't like that. ;D

 

 

[Goramier]

I have always read Verin as another version of Moiraine/Siuan type of deal that RJ decided to keep the readers more in the dark on. Where we learned the drive behind M/S we are left more in the dark on Verin and not sure her intentions or her means. I would be shocked if she was black ajah. From my reading, she had ample oppurtunities to do things without getting caught (like killing Cadsuane) and decided not to when she found that her intentions where honorable. I think Verin was planning on killing Cadsuane because she suspected that she was in fact, black ajah.

 

As far as Coriane, I thought she was black ajah and when read the series kinda pictured her as such.

 

Anyways as far Verin, she may have gotten Corianes notes or not. I don't think she is that important of a character. I think she is meant to thicken the plot by being a wild card and keep us guessing as to what she will do next. I doubt she has any real big role to play though. I suspect that she has some singular purpose she is ultimately focused on and is the reason for her characters purpose. Like I said though, I think she is just the extra wild card tossed in by RJ to thicken the plot and keep us guessing. There seems to be little centered on her when it really comes down to it. She may step up for some thing or reveal info about something or who knows, turn out to be black but I think in the end her role will be minimal.

[rhadamanthus]

I generally agree with Luckers.  Verin's project is almost certainly to make sure that all three tavern find their way to Tarmon Gai'don with the Aes Sedai as support.  She is not above manipulation in this end (i.e., she is not trusting things to just happen appropriately).  She will take action as needed, wherever it is needed, to see that all three of the ta'vern are there in their own ways.  No doubt, this is tied in some way to Corianen's notes.  She does not give them to Egwene either because she is not sure that Egwene would react appropriately (she is stubborn and prideful), or, alternatively, the notes also indicated the split and Egwene's rise to power.  Bad idea to inform someone of their future in such a way (recall the dreamwalkers speech in tSR to Moiraine).

 

Replying to myself because I am still thinking on this one.  If my assertion above regarding why Verin kept the notes from Egwene is correct, it does appear odd the Verin is remarkably hands-off with the Salidar group outside of causing their embassy to fail.

 

Presumably, Verin thought protecting the ta'vern a better strategy than coercing or manipulating the Aes Sedai, but Egwene has shown herself, from the second she takes the amyrlin seat, quite capable of using Rand and Matt to her own ends - and often fostering considerable Aes Sedai suspicion in the process (see, in paricular, Egwene's sly implication of Rand demanding oaths of fealty to Sheriam in LoC).  One wonders how much Verin knew and if she intentionally chose to force the embassy into a bad deal simply to delay Egwene's maneuvering from having any tangible effect.

[Xar]

I don't think that her role will be that minimal Goramier. She is in fact one of two people who knows where to find the Horn. Verin is a wild card but she is an important one. At least i hope so. But then again we know that not all of our questions will or can be answered so maybe her mysteries won't be explained.

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Could there be another secret Ajah that Verin is part of that is only dedicated to seeing that the Last Battle will be won for the light?

No. She might do it by herself, but no secret Ajahs.

If she took another Oath for this reason could that make it possible for her to lie?

No. We have seen what happens when two Oaths contradict. She would have to remove the Oath against untruth, and she hasn't.

Are these confirmed facts i.e. by RJ or is this your opinion?

Neither are directly confirmed.

 

But... We have seen that contradictory oaths leave the individual writhing around on the floor, unable to breath. Ref. the hunt for the Black Ajah in the WT.

 

As for the secret Ajah... were has it been all this time? It'd be the same as revealing the Black Ajah at this time. It'd leave you thinking "What have you been up to when the world burns?" I don't think some mysterious group would emerge on the eve of the final battle, kinda cheesy, no?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Presumably, Verin thought protecting the ta'vern a better strategy than coercing or manipulating the Aes Sedai

In that particular case, maybe.

 

But she uses Complusion at other points. So she's willing to manipulate and coerce.

One wonders how much Verin knew and if she intentionally chose to force the embassy into a bad deal simply to delay Egwene's maneuvering from having any tangible effect.

That's quite a common theory.

[Goramier]

I don't think that her role will be that minimal Goramier. She is in fact one of two people who knows where to find the Horn. Verin is a wild card but she is an important one. At least i hope so. But then again we know that not all of our questions will or can be answered so maybe her mysteries won't be explained.

 

 

Point taken. Fain also knows about the horn. Anyways I guess I am just not a big fan of hers in the story. I have kinda just read her as a wild card just meant to thicken the plot but not really having that big of a role. I can see where she could in fact have a large role though too. Who knows, she may end up being central but I just don't see it. Like I said though, if she did turn out to have a major role, I wouldn't be surprised either.

[Xar]

Quote:

 

 

As for the secret Ajah... were has it been all this time? It'd be the same as revealing the Black Ajah at this time. It'd leave you thinking "What have you been up to when the world burns?" I don't think some mysterious group would emerge on the eve of the final battle, kinda cheesy, no?

 

Well they are secret so it has been here. It would be typically for an AS to form such a group no? If they take an Oath something like "to do all things necessary to see the light victorious in TG or so". It would raise my respect for AS if there is a group that is'nt busy with plotting and sceaming against each other. Or is that just wishfull thinking  ;D

[CUBAREY]

Well they are secret so it has been here. It would be typically for an AS to form such a group no? If they take an Oath something like "to do all things necessary to see the light victorious in TG or so". It would raise my respect for AS if there is a group that is'nt busy with plotting and sceaming against each other. Or is that just wishfull thinking 

 

Even the fact that they would be a "secret Ajah" does not save the argument from close scrutiny. There would have had to have been many clues dropped throughout the series about its possible existence, to spring it in AMOL without foreshadowing it in the earlier books would just be a hoaky way of writing, RJ was much better of setting down clues then that.