Why did Galad win the sword fight?

[jsbrads]

Why did Galad not just decimate Valda, isn't Galad so much better than anyone? ???

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

We're not real.

 

Wadaya mean.

 

Just what I said...we're not real.

 

I feel real.

 

You're not.  Neither am I.  None of us are.

 

You're full of it.

 

Nope.  I listened in when the Great Lord was chatting with the Creator who just happens to be some author out there in that imaginary world that everyone calls "reality".  WJ?  PJ?  DJ?  LBJ? Something like that.  RJ...yeah...that's it.  He invented us.  If not for him, we would not exist.

 

I don't believe it.

 

Yup.  And this bit where Asmo keeps banging his head off the seal?  That's some place in "the real world" called Fiddlesticks.  It's in Dragonmount.

 

Dragon what?

 

Dragonmount.  It's an imaginary world on the internet where the people of the dragon go to socialize and eat spam and green fried tomatoes and stuff.  And they try to figure out who killed Asmo.

 

Asmo isn't dead.

 

He will be.

 

How do you know.

 

Dragonmount told me.

 

You talk to Dragonmount?

 

No, I go there on the internet.

 

Is this some kind of Mosc and Merc story?

 

Nope.

 

Can I go there, too?

 

Got a terminal?

 

Yup.

 

Got high speed DSL?

 

Nope.

 

Why not.

 

Too cheap to pay for it.

 

Get a job...maybe you can get it for free.

 

OK.

 

But watch out for Reyler...that one will take your face off!!!

* looks around to see if Rey is listening *

 

So.  You and I don't exist, huh?

 

Well...sort of.  Thousands of people all over the world have read the books that we're in so we exist in their imaginations, too.  Except for some of us...balefire, you see. 

 

What!!!

 

Yup.  One more book to go.  Whoever survives that book will probably have to face LTT for the one-on-one grand finale match.

 

Wait a minute.  That explains how I was able to survive 3000 years in this bore with a bunch of power hungry back stabbing radicals.  It kind of makes sense.  Otherwise, I'd have been dead shortly after the bore was sealed, huh?

 

Yup.  You don't exist...not unless Gwampy wants you to.

 

Who's Gwampy?

 

The guy who keeps this thread alive.

 

* thinking it over *

Keep it up, Gwampy!!!

 

I have to say, I dont believe the guy who said this is that trustworthy. ;)

[GrandpaG]

Would I lie to you?  :o

* trying to look innocent *  8)

::)

[lou]

i think galad is seriously under-rated. this was a little boy who was for all intents and purposes orphaned, and raised by morgase as her very own child. he never felt in any way "step-childed".

remember the scene where he is trying to procure the ship to get elayne and nynaeve to safety? he put his loyalty to family first, and always has. coupled with the fact that he was trained by hammer and the rest of the warders...how could he lose?

[Guest cwestervelt]

It wasn't loyalty to family, it was the need to do what he saw as right.  That is why Elayne was so anxious to get out of there.  She didn't be around when Galad was faced with the choice between 2 rights.

 

The one to see is sister and her friend safe and back were they belonged, and the law that said since they were connected to the Tower they were Darkfriends, thus under sentence of death.  With Galad, I suspect, and Elayne likely did to, that Law trumps Family.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Hammar and Coulin were washed up blademasters. Think about it: they've been at the tower training all these young warders, so they haven't had much time to brush up on their own skill, now have they?

 

Besides that, I doubt they actually personally trained them (they way Lan trained Rand, by them dueling).

[Guest cwestervelt]

A blademaster's skill, at least in the books, appears to be something like riding a bike.  Once you learn it, you never forget it.  By the time they reach that level, the sword is essentially a part of them.  They might get a little rusty if they don't practice, but apparently not that much.  Tam hadn't held a sword in somthing like 16 to 18 years, yet he maintained most of his skill.  Taken by surprise, he only took one small scratch, that wouldn't have slowed him had that blade not been tainted by Thakan'dar.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, it is one thing to kill a mindless Trolloc, and it is quite another to kill  another person in a duel.

 

Anyways, that is the point I was trying to make, that there may only be kind of rusty, but that is enough to get killed by Gawyn, he's just that good.

 

Also, with the Seanchan blademaster Turak: Rather than being "rusty" when fighting Rand, I seriously doubt he had ever had a duel to the death before, being from a consolidated Seanchan, and also being nobility.

[Digbe]

A blademaster's skill, at least in the books, appears to be something like riding a bike.  Once you learn it, you never forget it.  By the time they reach that level, the sword is essentially a part of them.  They might get a little rusty if they don't practice, but apparently not that much.  Tam hadn't held a sword in somthing like 16 to 18 years, yet he maintained most of his skill.  Taken by surprise, he only took one small scratch, that wouldn't have slowed him had that blade not been tainted by Thakan'dar.

 

And what was the trolloc count on that night anyways? and kill/live ratio by Tam?  Keep in mind several characters ( even one-eyed Uno!) has kicked the the crap out of a lot things but you would assume that they awere still no where near blademaster... There was a time when Galad was slicng through everyone on the street and looking not even out of stride of taskless movement.  All the while, Uno and the rest of Nynaeve and Elayne's Shenarian escort were in awe of him.

 

I would put Tam at a loss against Coulidan--Galad victor over Coulidan

(But then again Aiel versus Genetically gifted and freshly trained by 2 blade masters

Versus Rusty old man/awarded blademaster at a time where there was a high casualty rate and certain things can be obtained easier by having either less competition, or having more comparisons of skill to casualty during wartime as opposed to peace.)

 

I'd like to see Mat return home for Beltine and whip the crap out of Tam and all of the other two river folk at some feast day festival event.

 

[Digbe]

Any non-channeling characters in Randland that could kill a gholem?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Any non-channeling characters in Randland that could kill a gholem?

 

We don't even know that it is possible to kill a gholam yet, especially without the OP, so I would assume no...

 

Anyways, Digbe, I was referring to Hammar and Coulin, not Couladin. Coulin is the other blademaster who trained warders.

 

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing where Tam ranked on the swordsman list.

 

Rand is definitely still going to be one of the best when he gets his hand back...

[Darkness Incarnated]

Lol, washed up blademasters, I like that. I as well think their skill had gone a bit rusty. Gawyn killing those two says that he's good, perhaps even very good, but we never got around to knowing the full circumstances, with the chaos that reigned. In any case, it maybe that I underestimate Galad. Just a bit. What is certain is that he is better than his half-brother (Doofus) but still not quite to his other half-brother's level.

Don't even get me started on Rand's skills, I could go on and on.

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Rand's skills came unnaturally quick.  Of course, they were augmented by the fact that the dead man in his head who teaches him tricks with the Power was, if I remember right, also an acknowledged blademaster.

[Mr Ares]

Any non-channeling characters in Randland that could kill a gholem?

Mat is the only person known to have ever even hurt one. If he can kill it, then yes.

Rand's skills came unnaturally quick.  Of course, they were augmented by the fact that the dead man in his head who teaches him tricks with the Power was, if I remember right, also an acknowledged blademaster.

The voice hadn't started by that point. He became a blademaster by killing Turak in TGH, LTT didn't appear in rand's head till later. More likely the effect of his being ta'veren made him a better sword fighter than he would otherwise have been.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The voice hadn't started by that point. He became a blademaster by killing Turak in TGH, LTT didn't appear in rand's head till later. More likely the effect of his being ta'veren made him a better sword fighter than he would otherwise have been.

 

Well, there are indications that Lews Therin's unconscious was present long before the voice spoke.  Rand's instinctive channeling at the Eye, and in Tear, almost have to have their dual source in Lews Therin and ta'veren-ness.

 

Rand's subconscious is enormously complicated.  His quick development is a result of a combination of excellent teaching (from both Tam and Lan ... Tam's concentration technique should not be underestimated here), good natural talent, the right physical genetics, a healthy dose of ta'veren, AND having a blademaster in his subconscious.  More than just a blademaster, the man who turned the "sport" of swordfighting back into a true martial art (according to Be'lal, anyway).

[Gentled Ben]

You make a good point, RAW. I was struck by how, in the prologue to EotW, it describes LTT's friends and family lying dead about the palace, some of whom had been chased down by lightning, according to the book, and then in Tear, he wove that thing that sent lightning throught the Stone, killing every shadowspawn in the building. Those descriptions are too close for coincidence, I think.

[Mr Ares]

The voice hadn't started by that point. He became a blademaster by killing Turak in TGH, LTT didn't appear in rand's head till later. More likely the effect of his being ta'veren made him a better sword fighter than he would otherwise have been.

Well, there are indications that Lews Therin's unconscious was present long before the voice spoke.  Rand's instinctive channeling at the Eye, and in Tear, almost have to have their dual source in Lews Therin and ta'veren-ness.

 

Rand's subconscious is enormously complicated.  His quick development is a result of a combination of excellent teaching (from both Tam and Lan ... Tam's concentration technique should not be underestimated here), good natural talent, the right physical genetics, a healthy dose of ta'veren, AND having a blademaster in his subconscious.  More than just a blademaster, the man who turned the "sport" of swordfighting back into a true martial art (according to Be'lal, anyway).

You're right about the presence of LTT before the voice starts, but I think some people like to attribute far too many things to LTT, either before or after his arrival, when some things can be considered to be down to Rand alone. The Eye and Tear are both times when the subconcious presence of a very experienced channeler would be useful, but why bring him into everything? Why can't Rand be a Blademaster by vitue of his own abilities, and the presence of good teachers, of course? Maybe it's just me, but I prefer not to put all of Rand's victories at Lews Therin's feet, as some people do tend to do, to a greater or lesser extent.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, as I pointed out, even assuming Lews Therin's presence was helpful, it was but one of many factors, and not even necessarily the primary or dominant one.  It made some things slightly easier.  That said, if Rand hadn't been determined to learn, had the best of teachers, been in superb physical condition, practiced daily, pushed himself hard, and worked his butt off, having Lews Therin in there wouldn't have done squat.

 

By the same token, its probably not a factor that should be ignored.

[Mr Ares]

Well, as I pointed out, even assuming Lews Therin's presence was helpful, it was but one of many factors, and not even necessarily the primary or dominant one.  It made some things slightly easier.  That said, if Rand hadn't been determined to learn, had the best of teachers, been in superb physical condition, practiced daily, pushed himself hard, and worked his butt off, having Lews Therin in there wouldn't have done squat.

 

By the same token, its probably not a factor that should be ignored.

Fair points, and I wasn't accusing you of making him a factor in everything, I just think some people tend to give him a bit too much credit for some things.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Galad and Gawyn started truly training in the Great Hunt, and by the Shadow Rising or the Fires of Heaven, if I remember well, Gawyn was able to dispatch two blademasters (at least I think Hammar and Coulin were) in one day. Is that 'natural'?

I agree with Mr Ares, why does pretty much everything have to be dumped at LTT's feet? Gareth looked at Rand and said that the sword belonged to him, Lan, who doesn't toss compliments around, told Rand that he's a very fast learner, and never makes the same mistake twice. Why does LTT have to be in there? I guess next someone is going to tell me that Rand has a dead Aiel ancestor in his head helping him with the Aiel way of fighting.

At the Eye of the World, I can't see why it can't be Rand channeling by himself, he was bound to anyway. Is there any proof that LTT's unconscious presence was already there?

[RobertAlexWillis]

At the Eye of the World, I can't see why it can't be Rand channeling by himself, he was bound to anyway. Is there any proof that LTT's unconscious presence was already there?

 

Beyond Rand being able to make specific weaves that there's no way he could possibly know?  No.

 

Is there any proof that LTT's subconscious presence was not there?  Because since we know for a fact its there now, the onus for proof kind of lies in that direction.

 

I guess next someone is going to tell me that Rand has a dead Aiel ancestor in his head helping him with the Aiel way of fighting.

 

Only if a dead Aiel ancestor starts jabbering in Rand's about his dead wife and Rand starts having dreams of milking garas.

 

And while Rand has become competent with Aiel techniques, he wouldn't be considered a master of them as he is with the sword.  Again, a variety of factors contribute to that fact, but Lews Therin's lack of subconscious memories of that style of fighting is probably one factor among the many.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

The thing is, guys, I don't see how it could have been Lews Therin that influenced him to begin channeling, because Lews is a result of the sickness of touching saidin, and I don't think that it would be advanced enough by the time he first channeled to do anything.

 

I think it is more of the memory of the soul type of thing, where it came natural because he had excelled at in his previous life. I think his soul was impressed upon by what Lews did, and that helped Rand learn quickly. It should seem comparable to Tam picking up the sword after 15 years, it would be pretty easy to learn it again.

[Darkness Incarnated]

To be honest, somethings are clearily not his doing, like the lightning in Tear. But I considered the Eye of the Word to be a life-threatening situation that forced him to react. In other words, instinct. After all, he healed Bela, brought down that lightning to escape that Darkfriend, killed that Trolloc on the boat, and he didn't know how to do it. Or that was LTT too?

And he killed a Warder with his bare hands, that's not bad...

 

;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its not an "all or nothing" proposition in either direction.  Its not "all from Lews Therin", and its not "Lews Therin isn't involved".  Its somewhere in-between.

 

Lews Therin's subconscious presence helped Rand al'Thor to do those things.  Just like Rand's own hard work and determination, his native intelligence, his willingness to pay attention, his desires to help, all those things played a part.  Lews Therin's presence played a part.  Thats all.

[Darkness Incarnated]

I am afraid that's not all :D, because it comes to what Ealdur Tinuviel said. Was LTT brought out by the taint, or was he always present?