How long will it take for men to gain forgiveness?

[GrandpaG]

I read in a post somewhere that the men in randland have spent the past 3000 years sinking lower and lower in society because of the taint on saidin.  Male Aes Sedai broke the world.  Male channelers over the past 3000 years could not be trusted.  The world has gotten used to the idea that they were a wild beast that had to be dealt with severely.  The Aiel men head for the blight.  Sea Folk toss their male channelers overboard?  Seanchan dispose of theirs.  Shara doesn't like them, either.  The Reds have been gentling any they could find.

 

Now that saidin is clean, will these practices continue?  ???

[cloudcrono]

It depends on what happens during the last battle.

 

If enough male channelers are still alive after the last battle they are definitely going to cut out a place for them in society again.  The answer would be no in this case.

 

If most are wiped it may take them a longer time to establish themselves and get rid of the old practices.

 

My opinion though is that Logan is going to live through the last battle and he will make sure that those things don't happen again.

[GrandpaG]

Communication in randland is slow relying mainly on rumor.  Most of the common people will have no idea that anything is any different than it has been for the past 3000 years.  If a young Aiel male finds out he can channel, he won't realize that it's clean.  The Sea Folk and Seanchan won't have common knowledge that anything has changed.  The women in randland who can channel all sensed the cleansing but a tiny handful have any clue to this day what was going on.  As far as they know, nothing has changed.  They might have heard a rumor about the Black Tower, but I doubt that they're getting accurate information.  It looks like a long uphill struggle for men to regain their equality with women.

[DragonSpawn]

    What you are saying however is not universal. Let's take Amadicia for example. Any woman with the ability to channel is killed or chased away. Hell they even once killed an Amyrlin and hung her dead body on a hanger's podium. Also note how in Amadicia, Aes Sedai would usually cloak their face to avoid being identified.

    Or in Seanchan. One could argue a quick death (that a male channeler receives) is preferable to 350+ years of pet-like slavery.

 

   

        Also to take into account. Ever since Rand cleansed Saidin with Saidar, there have been several mentions that "Saidar is behaving strange." It could be that by abusing Saidar as he did, Rand permanently damaged the connection that enable women who can channel to reach for Saidar.

[algspkr]

     What you are saying however is not universal. Let's take Amadicia for example. Any woman with the ability to channel is killed or chased away. Hell they even once killed an Amyrlin and hung her dead body on a hanger's podium. Also note how in Amadicia, Aes Sedai would usually cloak their face to avoid being identified.

     Or in Seanchan. One could argue a quick death (that a male channeler receives) is preferable to 350+ years of pet-like slavery.

 

   

        Also to take into account. Ever since Rand cleansed Saidin with Saidar, there have been several mentions that "Saidar is behaving strange." It could be that by abusing Saidar as he did, Rand permanently damaged the connection that enable women who can channel to reach for Saidar.

Every occurance of Saidar "misbehaving" has been a tied off weave designed to hurt the Dark One or to significantly help the light.  It has been wards to keep out rats and ravens that failed, along with Keepings to keep food fresh, while the wards laid during the construction of Tar Valon to strengthen the harbor chains have remained strong.

 

It is the Dark One's doing not a true failing of Saidar.

[GrandpaG]

     What you are saying however is not universal. Let's take Amadicia for example. Any woman with the ability to channel is killed or chased away. Hell they even once killed an Amyrlin and hung her dead body on a hanger's podium. Also note how in Amadicia, Aes Sedai would usually cloak their face to avoid being identified.

     Or in Seanchan. One could argue a quick death (that a male channeler receives) is preferable to 350+ years of pet-like slavery.

 

   

        Also to take into account. Ever since Rand cleansed Saidin with Saidar, there have been several mentions that "Saidar is behaving strange." It could be that by abusing Saidar as he did, Rand permanently damaged the connection that enable women who can channel to reach for Saidar.

 

Or, maybe some of the taint "oozed" over into saidar?  ???

[callandor]

no, the taint is gone, you remember what happend to shadar loghoth and the huge dome that was the taint right? like algspkr said, most of the things failing are weaves are tied off, like the keepings on Elaynes golden lily that rand gave her and the keepings and wards in Tar Valon, like that rats are getting in where they havent been in the city (i.e. inside the city, the food storages etc.)for like 2000+ years.also, in the rebel aes sedai, their keepings are failing and weevles or whatever they are are getting into their food supplys to. most of the things that are saidar failing is long-lasting weaves.

 

back to the original idea, i am thinking that the men will be foriven, or will at least be recognized as not-crazy after Taim is killed (if he does get killed which i hope happens ;)) and the Asha'man are not controlled by a psycho False dragon. that or they prove themsleves at the last battle.

 

also, im guessing that after Cadsuane teaches the men their lesson that she has to give them, then she will respect them more and more women and aes sedai will probably come a while after when they start to see that lesson come into effect.

[GrandpaG]

I don't think I'm leading you along very good...let me try a different approach.

 

I'm a young Gwampy living in rural Arad Doman...on a farm...a goat farm.  No sheep.  One day, I get up to go feed the chickens and gather the eggs and split the firewood.  I swing a little crooked

and the chunk that I was trying to split flies off the support buck and hits me in the knee.  I cus alittle.  Jumping around on my good leg, holding my hurt knee, I look at the chunk that hurt me.  With all the hate I can muster, I glare at that dirty rotten lousy chunk...and it bursts into flame!  Can't believe my eyes.  I know I did it.  There's only one way I could have.  I'm gonna go mad.  When I tell me pa, he takes me in to town.  The granny healer lady says she'll have to turn me over to the Red Ajah.  I've never heard of the Black Tower.  Rather than get gentled and then die, I take my splitting axe and chop my own head off.  The village granny now suspects that me pa an all me bruddas will channel, too.  Our family name is mud.

 

How long will it take for this to stop happening?  It took 3000 years for things to get this bad.  Men are all suspect.  They can't be trusted with any responsibility.  Any one of them could be the next one to go mad.  How long before this biggotry will be reversed and all men can be equal like they were in the Age of Legends?

[Darth_Andrea]

Anyone ever think that it could be the female half trying to force the women to work with men again? Now that the taint is cleansed I can see Saidar trying to bring her brother back into the good graces of the world.

 

Darth_Andrea

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rather than get gentled and then die, I take my splitting axe and chop my own head off.

 

First of all, thats an impressive (and probably messy) way to committ suicide!

 

Second,

 

How long will it take for this to stop happening?

 

My guess is that within a hundred years at most after Tarmon Gaidon, it will become a moot point.  Channeling is on the way out for everyone, in my opinion.  And while history has an OK memory, sometimes, I don't personally think this prejudice will survive the Age change.

[GrandpaG]

Rather than get gentled and then die, I take my splitting axe and chop my own head off.

 

First of all, thats an impressive (and probably messy) way to committ suicide!

 

 

What if he missed on the first swing?  ::)

 

 

Second,

 

How long will it take for this to stop happening?

 

My guess is that within a hundred years at most after Tarmon Gaidon, it will become a moot point.  Channeling is on the way out for everyone, in my opinion.  And while history has an OK memory, sometimes, I don't personally think this prejudice will survive the Age change.

 

A major culture change.  Not instantaneous.  No specific criteria.  A gradual but identifiable shift from one Age to the next.  When the new age is in place, the old predjudices will be but a myth.  100 years.  Possible, I guess.  I'm guessing men will suffer for longer than that.  Is RJ crafty enough to include this in AMoL and take us up to or past the threshold of the next age?  He might need more than 2000 pages?  Someone predicted that TG will take place fairly early in the book.  I hope so.  There are TONS of other things he can write about leading up to the age change.

[loki redfern]

but it isnt going to be a gradual shift, the will be the last battle, and im pretty sure when everybody sees what the ash'ahman(sp) can do and that for the most part that there pretty much uncrazy then this the common people who are at TG are going to see this, and then afterward if enough survive and the black tower is still there, then they have a pretty aggresive recruting policy, there visiting each village, if they say the saidin is clean in each on the rumour will spread much faster, and people will latch on to the hope this will give then when looking for a way out, even say their friendly and unbelieving village mob is chasing them, they will have somewhere to aim for

[Mr Ares]

Well leaving aside RAWs suggestion, I think that firstly your assertion that men cannot be given positions of responsibility is wrong, as firstly there are men in many positions of responsibility, and secondly, the percentage of men likely to go crazy is very low. Only one percent of the population can channel, and most of them are only learners. If only one percent of those are sparkers then about 1 in 10,00 men are a problem, enough to skew things towards women, but not enough to remove all men as a threat. The scenario you outline is unlikely, firstly because suicide in that manner is very difficult, to say the least, and secondly, because most channeling men start channeling by giving the appearance of luck. Most of them wouldn't know what this meant they were starting to channel. These people would be lucky, and unless someone found them, a lot of them would eventually die as they haven't learnt to control the power. Those that do will not go mad, so if people try tro attack them, all they need to do is run away. If they arrive in a larger town, then they may eventually hear about the taint being cleansed, or some such. Remember that with new inventions it is likely that communications will improve as well. And with faster communications, as well as channeling men being present in a lot of places that previously would never have seen them - the Asha'men will likely get around as much as the Aes Sedai - people will get used to seeing these people without them going mad, and that will help. It may not be easy, but I would suggest that in most large population centres in Randland, as well as a lot of mid-sized and small population centres, knowledge of the Asham'men will be quite common, and they will be known not as people who go crazy but as people that fulfill whatever role in the community that particular man fills. Thge smallest, most isolated communities will, of course, be the last to know, but they will also be the least likely to have male channelers to deal with. Of course, people can be very good at hanging on to irrational prejudices, but even so the fact that no Asha'man will be going crazy will help the general perception of them as not being crazy. In short, the damage could likely be healed, for the most part, in much less than 3,000 years, and probably a lot could be healed in less than the 100 years already suggested.

[Belar]

the redemption of male channelers is unfortunately going to be a slow one, i woudl say at least 500 years for the general public to begin trusting them fully, althought i think you will find the Red Aija will change its policy as soon as the taint is confirmed to be clear, i think the Reds will eventually bond manle Channelers (to be sure of there control over these previously dangourous men)

 

as far as the villages and the likes are concerned it will take a long long time for them to stop killing or chasing off the men, as for the sea folk, im guessing they will catch on pretty quickly that the men aint danjourous and the seanch will continue killing them men for years to come as i think they will be loosing there leashed ones soon

[Darth_Andrea]

Given that many realize that the ability to channel is being bread out of humanity, Its possiable that after the last battle. There will be a effort made to have like chapter houses setup from the towers. which would try to find those who can channel and um...encourage marriages between those who can channel in order to increase the number of children born with the ability.

 

Darth_Andrea

 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Thge smallest, most isolated communities will, of course, be the last to know, but they will also be the least likely to have male channelers to deal with.

 

There is one basic flaw in that statement.  The smallest, most isolated communities will by the last to know but they are the most likely to have male channelers to deal with.  Those areas have much less thinning of the gene pool resulting in more people able to Channel.  This has been shown in the books by the abnormal number of Chanellers found in the Two Rivers and other remote locations where the Tower in Exile was recruiting.

[Feral]

I think the only way male channelers are going to be trusted is if they take the 3 Oaths like Aes Sedai. If there is a ter'angreal that can place oaths on men. Can't remember. That's the only way I'd trust any chaneler.

[GrandpaG]

Given that many realize that the ability to channel is being bread out of humanity, Its possiable that after the last battle. There will be a effort made to have like chapter houses setup from the towers. which would try to find those who can channel and um...encourage marriages between those who can channel in order to increase the number of children born with the ability.

 

Darth_Andrea

 

 

 

 

This would delay the cultural change (forgetting about channelling all together) required for entry into the next age...unless the next age somehow is still a channelling age and there is something else to identify it as different from Rand's age?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think the only way male channelers are going to be trusted is if they take the 3 Oaths like Aes Sedai. If there is a ter'angreal that can place oaths on men. Can't remember. That's the only way I'd trust any chaneler.

 

The Binder (Oath Rod) should work on men too.  It was a method of controlling channellers who committed significant crimes in the Age of Legends and there is nothing to indicate that they would make it gender specific.

 

I think Binding male channellers would make it harder for them to gain acceptance.  This has been shown throughout the books with the way Channellers in general are regarded.  They are disliked, feared and mistrusted by societies that attempt to set Channellers apart from the rest of society.  Seanchan and Aes Sedai.  On the other hand, they are respected part of the societies that accept them without reservation.  Sea Folk and Aiel.

 

 

[GrandpaG]

If randland had a world wide news network on TV that every family had access to and the news anchor came on one night and told everyone in his most serious tone and a dead serious look on his face that the male half of the source was no longer tainted would the people believe him?  They've had 3000 years to get used to having the taint be a very real menace.  :-\

[Darth_Andrea]

Given that many realize that the ability to channel is being bread out of humanity, Its possiable that after the last battle. There will be a effort made to have like chapter houses setup from the towers. which would try to find those who can channel and um...encourage marriages between those who can channel in order to increase the number of children born with the ability.

 

Darth_Andrea

 

 

 

 

This would delay the cultural change (forgetting about channelling all together) required for entry into the next age...unless the next age somehow is still a channelling age and there is something else to identify it as different from Rand's age?

 

Well from everything I have read in the series so far the last hand full of ages had Channeling. Or something alike to it, and given that If Rand defeats the DO (Kill him or perminatly re-seals the prison) the need for channeling will presist in case some fool in the future opens it again. The soul of the dragon may very well be reborn in the future again if needed, given Rand isn't totaly destroyed in the last battle.

 

Darth_Andrea

[Mr Ares]

Thge smallest, most isolated communities will, of course, be the last to know, but they will also be the least likely to have male channelers to deal with.

 

There is one basic flaw in that statement.  The smallest, most isolated communities will by the last to know but they are the most likely to have male channelers to deal with.  Those areas have much less thinning of the gene pool resulting in more people able to Channel.  This has been shown in the books by the abnormal number of Chanellers found in the Two Rivers and other remote locations where the Tower in Exile was recruiting.

A fair point. Firstly, of course, it presupposes that these places have chaqnneling genes in them (many do of course, but those that don't are less likely to have them added to the gene pool). Those that do have channelers are likely to be targets for channelers making recruitment drives, so these people would likely be more familiar with Asha'men up close and personal than many city dwellers, who would see them only at a distance in many cases. In these cases male channelers would thus be less of a problem, as they would be known. The only exceptions would be the small isolated communities that no one could find. Another way in which it may not be a problem is the male channelers they had in the past succesfully wiped out the community, and its entire gene pool. So, male channelers are not a huge problem for most places, and the problem will likely diminish far quicker than many people predict, although prejudice is still likely to remain in many cases. People are, after all, idiots.

 

And to those who support the use of binders, don't forget the lack of trust many people feel towards Aes Sedai. it would make far more sense for channelers to integrate into the community in the same way as Wise Ones or Windfinders. After all, it's not as easy to hate, fear, or mistrust someone who you know well and count as a friend as it is to feel that way towards a complete stranger who isolates him/herself from the community like the AS do.