The Show Has Been Cancelled

[WoTwasThat]

36 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

My closest friend that loves fantasy got to around book 7 and gave up. Many of the fans on the boards here really didn't like the first 3 books. This hasn't got anything to do with "modern" audiences or target audiences. This has to do with the books were always an acquired taste. My love of them doesn't change that. It certainly doesn't change the rather slavish aping of LOTR. It doesn't change that the original readers of tEotW didn't know the book was about the Dragon Reborn, and that affects the pacing a lot for later readers. It doesn't change that the tone is quite different to the rest of the books. 

 

None of this says that any decision of the adaptation was the right one, but it does make a nonsense of the argument was all they had to do was be closer to the books. That simply isn't true. Which isn't to say that an adaption closer to the books narrative could not be done successfully, but it presents its own challenges, and is not the solution to all problems. 

 

And of course @WoTwasThat, you can use the forums as you please (within the rules you have agreed to follow, obviously). However, your use isn't consistent with a fan of the books, nor does your claim that people just need to dust off the books ring particularly true to someone that actually is familiar with the source material. Most of us don't need to dust off the books to recall their content. 

 

The fact remains that opinions on the adaptation remain subjective - there is no right or wrong way to feel about it.

First, the “slavish aping of LOTR” is pretty much over after leaving the Shire I mean the Two Rivers. And the lore, which is the thing that makes WOT so awesome, pretty much immediately sets it apart.

 

Second, if you couldn’t tell the EOTW was about the Dragon Reborn within the first hundred pages or so… I don’t know what to tell you. I think you need to dust off the book. Because I think you’re seriously misremembering. 
 

I mean, the Prologue to all the talk about the Dragon Reborn, to Tam’s fever dream, to pretty much the whole book being written from Rand’s POV… what was unclear?

 

And finally, my use isn’t consistent with a fan of the books?? I think I’ve pretty well established my bona fides by now. I LOVED Books 1-6, and the show would have had a much better chance at success if they had been more faithfully adapted. That doesn’t mean down to every single page. Of course not. Heck I supported moving Thom and Min to much later in the show. Certain changes made sense.

Edited June 10 by WoTwasThat

[Success]

I love this show, it has a continuous path. Has the dark one defeated us that the show has to stop? Is there not a thing that could be done to win the cancellation?

[Raal Gurniss]

7 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

My closest friend that loves fantasy got to around book 7 and gave up. Many of the fans on the boards here really didn't like the first 3 books. This hasn't got anything to do with "modern" audiences or target audiences. This has to do with the books were always an acquired taste. My love of them doesn't change that. It certainly doesn't change the rather slavish aping of LOTR. It doesn't change that the original readers of tEotW didn't know the book was about the Dragon Reborn, and that affects the pacing a lot for later readers. It doesn't change that the tone is quite different to the rest of the books. 

 

None of this says that any decision of the adaptation was the right one, but it does make a nonsense of the argument was all they had to do was be closer to the books. That simply isn't true. Which isn't to say that an adaption closer to the books narrative could not be done successfully, but it presents its own challenges, and is not the solution to all problems. 

 

And of course @WoTwasThat, you can use the forums as you please (within the rules you have agreed to follow, obviously). However, your use isn't consistent with a fan of the books, nor does your claim that people just need to dust off the books ring particularly true to someone that actually is familiar with the source material. Most of us don't need to dust off the books to recall their content. 

 

The fact remains that opinions on the adaptation remain subjective - there is no right or wrong way to feel about it.

 

 

You like the adaptation, thats fine...Other people didn't like the adaptation, thats also fine.

 

The actual fact of the matter is that not enough people liked the adaptation to maintain a continuation of more than three seasons and many fans of the books didn't like the adaptation to the extent that they are largely stereotyped as being opponents of the adaptation.

 

Right, wrong, belief, emotions, feelings or whatever don't come into facts, they are what they are..

 

This adaptation didn't appeal to enough people and actually put many fans off.

 

It is what it is...Net result is a lot of unhappy people, unhappy about termination of a show mid telling and unhappy about an adaptation not to many fans tastes with next to no chance of a rebrand.

 

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

8 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

First, the “slavish aping of LOTR” is pretty much over after leaving the Shire I mean the Two Rivers. And the lore, which is the thing that makes WOT so awesome, pretty much immediately sets it apart.

 

Second, if you couldn’t tell the EOTW was about the Dragon Reborn within the first hundred pages or so… I don’t know what to tell you. I think you need to dust off the book. Because I think you’re seriously misremembering. 
 

I mean, the Prologue to all the talk about the Dragon Reborn, to Tam’s fever dream, to pretty much the whole book being written from Rand’s POV… what was unclear?

 

And finally, my use isn’t consistent with a fan of the books?? I think I’ve pretty well established my bona fides by now. I LOVED Books 1-6, and the show would have had a much better chance at success if they had been more faithfully adapted. That doesn’t mean down to every single page. Of course not. Heck I supported moving Thom and Min to much later in the show. Certain changes made sense.

I think you have established that you hate the show, and you want to argue that your opinion is objectively true. You haven't shown any inclination to discuss the books at all, which is strange if you loved them so much.

 

When did you read tEotW for the first time? What did you already know about the books? It is not obviously about the Dragon. The prologue establishes that this is about an epic story of good and evil, of tragedy and redemption, and not about a sheepherder. But it is breadcrumbing, it is not meant to explain anything, it is deliberately vague with enough info for it to make sense when you have more information. I love how Jordan teaches the reader about the lore, about the One Power with Egwene, False Dragons from tales of Logain, the history since the Breaking through Manetheren, etc etc. At no point did it sit down and say this is all about the Dragon. It isn't clear how mythological the Dragon is, whether he will be reborn or when, if he would be the antagonist... the Prophecies are deliberately vague and ominous, and we don't know how they are going to apply to the story. The book weaves a rich tapestry of background info that, to me, really seemed alive. So when we found the Horn of Valere, I was shocked. [An aside, I was disappointed that Farstrider was made into plot, having a world so detailed that we knew popular songs and everyone's favourite book, imho, was better than forcing Jain into the actual narrative, but that might just be me]. It was nothing like the standard trope in fantasy of the heroes needing a magical sword to save the world but all they have is the rusty sword they found in their father's attic. Wait, you don't mean that actually is the legendary sword of unlikely coincidences! OMG, lets save the world. If you read these forums you will find a lot of people that found the first books so slow because they already knew it was all about the Dragon, had probably heard a bit about the books, maybe read a few of the blurbs of later books.

 

All in my humble opinion, but the early books were always going to have to be treated with great care because a simple 1:1 adaptation even if possible was going to be problematic. 

[king of nowhere]

12 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Agree. Can’t believe they left out the TAR dream sequences with the boys and Ishy in the first season. And then spent like 10 mins in Shadar Logoth. In the second episode. What a mess. 

That's simply not true. The first seaseon has at least a scene with "ba'alzamon" for rand and one for perrin, and i don't distinctly remember one for mat but i think he also had one

Three sequences, with the premium on screen time, is a pretty good investment

As for shadar logoth, it got more or less the same time that it got in the books

[WoTwasThat]

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think you have established that you hate the show, and you want to argue that your opinion is objectively true. You haven't shown any inclination to discuss the books at all, which is strange if you loved them so much.

 

When did you read tEotW for the first time? What did you already know about the books? It is not obviously about the Dragon. The prologue establishes that this is about an epic story of good and evil, of tragedy and redemption, and not about a sheepherder. But it is breadcrumbing, it is not meant to explain anything, it is deliberately vague with enough info for it to make sense when you have more information. I love how Jordan teaches the reader about the lore, about the One Power with Egwene, False Dragons from tales of Logain, the history since the Breaking through Manetheren, etc etc. At no point did it sit down and say this is all about the Dragon. It isn't clear how mythological the Dragon is, whether he will be reborn or when, if he would be the antagonist... the Prophecies are deliberately vague and ominous, and we don't know how they are going to apply to the story. The book weaves a rich tapestry of background info that, to me, really seemed alive. So when we found the Horn of Valere, I was shocked. [An aside, I was disappointed that Farstrider was made into plot, having a world so detailed that we knew popular songs and everyone's favourite book, imho, was better than forcing Jain into the actual narrative, but that might just be me]. It was nothing like the standard trope in fantasy of the heroes needing a magical sword to save the world but all they have is the rusty sword they found in their father's attic. Wait, you don't mean that actually is the legendary sword of unlikely coincidences! OMG, lets save the world. If you read these forums you will find a lot of people that found the first books so slow because they already knew it was all about the Dragon, had probably heard a bit about the books, maybe read a few of the blurbs of later books.

 

All in my humble opinion, but the early books were always going to have to be treated with great care because a simple 1:1 adaptation even if possible was going to be problematic. 

I have discussed the books throughout this thread. Confusing.

 

I first started reading the series when I was 16. I think the books 1-4 had been published at that time. And I knew nothing about them other than my dad said “try this - you’ll love it.”

 

And all the “breadcrumbing” you mention happens in the first 50 pages. Even more in the first 100 and then 200.
 

You are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. If you liked the show, fine. If you think it couldn’t have been better adapted, fine. If you thought the first book was confusing, that’s becoming a stretch. And to say that it wasn’t clear from early into the first book that this series was going to be about the Dragon Reborn… that is really stretching things.

 

Seriously, spend a couple hours re-reading the first third of EOTW. I really think you may have forgotten. 

Edited June 10 by WoTwasThat

[WoTwasThat]

26 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

That's simply not true. The first seaseon has at least a scene with "ba'alzamon" for rand and one for perrin, and i don't distinctly remember one for mat but i think he also had one

Three sequences, with the premium on screen time, is a pretty good investment

As for shadar logoth, it got more or less the same time that it got in the books

I must have forgotten these from the first season. When Rand meets Ishy in the room with the crazy sky and he monologues about what happened in the Prologue… did that happen in the show? I don’t remember it if it did.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

When Rand meets Ishy in the room with the crazy sky and he monologues about what happened in the Prologue… did that happen in the show?

Obviously not. 

[king of nowhere]

12 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Agree. Can’t believe they left out the TAR dream sequences with the boys and Ishy in the first season. And then spent like 10 mins in Shadar Logoth. In the second episode. What a mess. 

That's simply not true. The first seaseon has at least a scene with "ba'alzamon" for rand and one for perrin, and i don't distinctly remember one for mat but i think he also had one

Three sequences, with the premium on screen time, is a pretty good investment

As for shadar logoth, it got more or less the same time that it got in the books, in proportion. 

[king of nowhere]

25 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

I must have forgotten these from the first season. When Rand meets Ishy in the room with the crazy sky and he monologues about what happened in the Prologue… did that happen in the show? I don’t remember it if it did.

Of course you don't get a scene-by-scene conversion. You know that. 

This feels like a bad faith argument. Moving the goalpost, too

You complained about the lack of t'a'r visions, i pointed out there were several, so now you shift on a specific one.

You may as well complain that there wasn't the scene of mat and rand doing gleemen tricks for food for the tenth time.

Edited June 10 by king of nowhere

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

This feels like a bad faith argument. Moving the goalpost, too

It’s neither of these things. What it is is simply a desire to dance on the show’s grave and point and laugh at all the people who enjoyed it. 
 

There’s no point engaging. 

Edited June 10 by Elder_Haman

[WoTwasThat]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Of course you don't get a scene-by-scene conversion. You know that. 

This feels like a bad faith argument. Moving the goalpost, too

Not bad faith. Genuinely don’t remember. Been a couple years since I watched Season 1. I’m just enjoying my re-read of EotW and keep thinking “damn, why wasn’t this in the show?” “where was this?” and “this dialogue would have explained everything - where was this?” and “man, they could have even kept some of “the mystery” without trashing the lore if they’d just done this!”

 

But it really does put the lie to the argument that the prologue was confusing in the book and wouldn’t have worked in the show. I’m only 250 pages into EotW and the prologue has already been explained from multiple perspectives several times. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

the prologue has already been explained from multiple perspectives several times. 

Something tv tries purposefully to avoid. If your tv show needs to explain a foundational concept multiple times from different perspectives, it’s failing. 

[WoTwasThat]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It’s neither of these things. What it is is simply a desire to dance on the shows’s grave and point and laugh at all the people who enjoyed it. 
 

There’s no point engaging. 

Def not dancing on any graves or laughing at anyone. Just an interesting conversation. My hope is that someone else makes a run at a better adaptation when Sony eventually sells or gives up the rights.

 

I have my own major problems with the books… namely how horribly I thought the series bogged down after Book 6. I thought this show could actually fix a lot of the problems with the books by tightening up the latter half considerably. But for me it never got off the launch pad. 

[WoTwasThat]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Something tv tries purposefully to avoid. If your tv show needs to explain a foundational concept multiple times from different perspectives, it’s failing. 

“Needs”? Nah, I thought it was pretty clear from the start. But hearing it from the perspectives of the common folk to Moiraine to Ishy is fun and interesting.

[Guire]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Something tv tries purposefully to avoid. If your tv show needs to explain a foundational concept multiple times from different perspectives, it’s failing. 

I just re read EotW also.  Lots of lore and concepts dropped in casual conversation that would not have been out of place in show.  The dream sequences also were just nightmares that didn't tell audience much either.  Everyone knows why first season was set up the way it was.  The knock on effects stayed with the show throughout.   I never wished for show to be canceled.  It was a very niche show though with too large a budget for it's targeted audience.  It could have been epic but tried to be something it wasn't.   

[Jake Sykwalker]

Just wanted to give a shout out to the mods on the board.  You have allowed the discussions to take place and taken part in them without overly censoring, or banning people.  It is good to get discussions back and forth.  This community is much better than many elsewhere online. 

 

 

[Cipher]

On 5/29/2025 at 10:23 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I’m going to vastly oversimplify and say this: Who Is The Dragon killed the show. I firmly believe that the core problems all stem from this choice. 

Not even close.

 

If the “who is the Dragon?” plot was removed and everything else was the same the show would have died the same death.

 

From a business standpoint Rafe’s goal should have been to win the book audience.  Tell Jordan’s story well enough to please that giant fan base.  Jordan’s story is so good that many new fans would have been made in that telling.

 

Rafe wanted women to rule and men to drool.  That was stupid.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, Cipher said:

If the “who is the Dragon?” plot was removed and everything else was the same the show would have died the same death.

You’re going to have to defend this statement. Because I will argue that nearly every gripe you have about the show can be traced back to that plot choice. 

[Cipher]

I feel you just want a convenient scape goat for this gay-feminist version of WoT failing.

 

The audience has spoken.  Wheel of Prime was rejected by the vast majority of Wheel of Time fans.

 

Let us list S1 faults, because that is where it was rejected.

 

1. Casting RP as Moiraine and making her the main character.

 

2. Poor world building.  Every nation has same metropolitan population and same sexual ethos.

 

3. Not a single strong male character in all of the 2Rs. How the hell is this a society of legendary military prowess? Women and men both want strong male leaders and protectors.  Perrin a cry baby who kills his wife. Mat a thief. Rand a do nothing complainer.

 

4. (3 part 2)  From the get go it was obvious who was wearing the pants in this world.  The woman doing her Popeye impersonation with her beer mug and pipe. The Women’s Circle.  Egwene’s mom putting “the mayor” in his place—if a similar interaction plays out with a man putting his wife in her place it is to show that he is an authoritarian jerk, here it is world building.  “Women are in charge.”

 

5. Ninja Nynaeve

6. Rage healing—death fake outs

7. Making Alanna a main character

8. Too much warder story

9. Not enough Rand story and development

…….

 

 

Edited June 18 by Cipher

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Cipher said:

Wheel of Prime was rejected by the vast majority of Wheel of Time fans.

This is entirely unverifiable. Cancellation is not the same as being "rejected by the vast majority" of fans. You can say that it didn't get good enough viewership, fine. But you do not have any clue how the "vast majority" of fans feel about the show. There are sizeable populations on both sides.

 

2 minutes ago, Cipher said:

1. Casting RP as Moiraine and making her the main character.

There was nothing inherently wrong with bringing in a big star and centering her for S1. In fact, played differently, this could have been a strength.

 

2 minutes ago, Cipher said:

2. Poor world building.  Every nation has same metropolitan population and same sexual ethos.

We didn't see any 'nations' in S1, and we have no idea of the 'sexual ethos' of anyone other than Emond's Field. 

 

4 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Not a single strong male character in all of the 2Rs. How the hell is this a society of legendary military prowess? Women and men both want strong male leaders and protectors.  Perrin a cry baby who kills his wife. Mat a thief. Rand a do nothing complainer.

These are personal opinions and not objective facts. Perrin, Rand and Tam all fought well on Winternight. Perrin led Egwene through difficult terrain to find the Tinkers. Mat heroically saved his sisters. Rand didn't 'complain,' other than to question Moriaine.

 

9 minutes ago, Cipher said:

it was obvious who was wearing the pants in this world.

Women had roles of leadership in the books too, or have you forgotten?

 

9 minutes ago, Cipher said:

5. Ninja Nynaeve

Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.

 

10 minutes ago, Cipher said:

6. Rage healing—death fake outs

Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.

 

10 minutes ago, Cipher said:

7. Making Alanna a main character

Didn't happen in S1.

 

10 minutes ago, Cipher said:

8. Too much warder story

Okay, maybe one point in your favor. But so minor as not to be worth mentioning.

 

11 minutes ago, Cipher said:

9. Not enough Rand story and development

Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.

[Cipher]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is entirely unverifiable. Cancellation is not the same as being "rejected by the vast majority" of fans. You can say that it didn't get good enough viewership, fine. But you do not have any clue how the "vast majority" of fans feel about the show. There are sizeable populations on both sides.

 

There was nothing inherently wrong with bringing in a big star and centering her for S1. In fact, played differently, this could have been a strength.

 

We didn't see any 'nations' in S1, and we have no idea of the 'sexual ethos' of anyone other than Emond's Field. 

 

These are personal opinions and not objective facts. Perrin, Rand and Tam all fought well on Winternight. Perrin led Egwene through difficult terrain to find the Tinkers. Mat heroically saved his sisters. Rand didn't 'complain,' other than to question Moriaine.

 

Women had roles of leadership in the books too, or have you forgotten?

 

Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.

 

Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.

 

Didn't happen in S1.

 

Okay, maybe one point in your favor. But so minor as not to be worth mentioning.

 

Served the 'Who is the Dragon' plot line.

Nobody said women were not strong in Jordan’s story.  But the men were strong as well.  Rafe made sure to tell us the men were nowhere to be found on Winter’s Night. When I watched S1E1 I was grumbling how the men were pathetic weaklings.

Nynaeve was the only target of “Who is the Dragon” fake out.  They were pointing to Mat and everybody with an ounce of modern story watching knew it wasn’t him.  They made no solid attempts to implicate Egwene or Perrin.

 

I think you have it backwards.  Who is the Dragon was not to be an interesting story arc, but rather an excuse to elevate Nynaeve in strength in S1–one thing obviously Rafe was interested in.

 

Alanna was very prominent in the forest battle episode.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Cipher said:

excuse to elevate Nynaeve in strength

Odd. Since she basically disappeared after S1. 

 

3 minutes ago, Cipher said:

They made no solid attempts to implicate Egwene or Perrin.

Disagree. The wolves were the effort to implicate Perrin. And MO’s conversation with Eggy + Eg’s apparent use of the power in the Ways were meant to be those efforts. 

 

5 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Alanna was very prominent in the forest battle episode.

She was, in no sense, a “main character” in that episode. 

[Cipher]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Odd. Since she basically disappeared after S1. 

 

Disagree. The wolves were the effort to implicate Perrin. And MO’s conversation with Eggy + Eg’s apparent use of the power in the Ways were meant to be those efforts. 

 

She was, in no sense, a “main character” in that episode. 

Over correction on Nyn.  Rafe heard the criticism and then took away her big moments.  He got it wrong again.  She wasn’t even the same person as book Nyn at all. Terrible adaptation.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Rafe heard the criticism and then took away her big moments.

But he didn’t hear the louder, more consistent, complaints about favoring Egwene? Why would he fix one and not the other?