Olver is Gaidal Cain

[The Dark Lord]

That's what I think. He's ugly, he keeps talking about Birgitte... He's definitely Gaidal Cain. That is all.

[loki redfern]

nah can't be olver's to old he would only by a babby if he was in randland, because birgitte says he was still in TAR close to the time she was riped out

[Caerlie]

sorry loki, i thought that at first as well but RJ has specifically stated that he's not and as the dark lord says the timing doens't work out.

[The Dark Lord]

Time runs differently in TAR, though. I still think he is, and I have been pulling the strings behind the scenes for eternity!!

[Guest cwestervelt]

Olver is not Gaidal Cain. This has been debunked too many times already, and should finally stay dead.

 

Time runs differently in Tel'aran'rhiod yes. You could enter and find that hours or days in the Waking World passed after only minutes in Tel'aran'rhiod, or hours/days could pass there and only minutes in the Waking World, but you will never come out before you went in. Time never runs backwards. If you enter Tel'aran'rhiod and speak to/or see a Hero, (Nynaeve/Elayne only see Gaidal, not talk to him), and that Hero is then reborn, he will not be reborn at a time prior to your entering Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Cam]

i made a thread about this in the old DM and was shot down mercilessly...i still think taht he is...you only see Cain once, and then Birgitte says that she hasnt seen him in a long time...which means he is reborn...plus think about it from a writers perspective...there is no point in Olver unless he is special...also, Cain reborn was made to do great things...and KOD SPOILER ALERT they are all goig to the tower of Genji to free Moirane...so i still think he is, ther eare too many reasons for him to be...time is different...well there is a prime example of it

[Guest cwestervelt]

You see Cain once then he is reborn yes. And at the time you see him, Olver is already 9 years old. Since time does not flow backwards, he cannot be a 9 year old boy and just have been born.

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain? RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there ...

 

That quote can be found at http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.5_gaidal.html (The link should work if it ever comes back up. The quote is all I can get out of Google.)

 

The point is, the question was directly asked very directly answered question.

[Trib4l]

Not only that, Perrin sees Gaidal's shadow (I forget which book) where he's outside the Tower of Ghenji while in the Wolf Dream. Hopper was there with him. Brigitte approaches him to warn him off from trying to enter - while she's talking to him Perring notices a shadow with two shouldered swords appear and then Brigitte leaves.

 

Since between 1-3 years have passed since the beginning of the series, this would be impossible since Olver is clearly older than 3. Time doesn't flow backwards in TAR, it just flows slower or faster at certain times.

[Msnformd]

I too, while reading it, thought maybe Olver was Gaidal Cain. But if all say "no", I'll take your word for it. So who is?

 

If time can't flow backwards from TAR, can it flow forwards? Is it possible that Gaidal hasn't been born yet? Hmmm... Who do we know that's about to have a baby? HMMMMM.....

 

Could it be? Could it be possible that one of Elayne's twins (the boy, duh!) will be Gaidal's next incarnation? Given that Birgitte is Elayne's warder, that puts her in a position to recognize him as soon as it's possible to do so.

 

Purely speculation on my part.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Time passes at a different rate. It doesn't jump ahead and back. If something occurs in Tel'aran'rhiod prior to a discussion, the real world event that is a counterpart also must have occurred prior to the discussion.

 

Gaidal is, at least in Birgitte's opinion, already gone from Tel'aran'rhiod and this occurred before Elayne got pregnant. Gaidal was either baking in the oven, or filling his diaper's when Birgitte made that comment. Gaidal will not be any progeny of Rand and Elayne.

 

Gaidal is/was reborn to take part in the "world not done with battles" prophesy. It has no bearing or connection to the main story arc.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Something to think about. We only think Gaidal was reborn because Birgitte hadn't seen him in Tel'aran'rhiod for some time. Maybe, since she was breaking the rules, he was avoiding her. I think she once said she can find someone who knows they are in Tel'aran'rhiod. Why shouldn't someone who knows they are in Tel'aran'rhiod be able to hide there presence from her?

[Sato]

Also, on the subject of Elayne's babies, I remember reading somewhere about a few of the different Heroes and two of them were twins whose birth "Heralded the coming of a new age" so I think that would have to be who Elayne's twins are going to be.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Also' date=' on the subject of Elayne's babies, I remember reading somewhere about a few of the different Heroes and two of them were twins whose birth "Heralded the coming of a new age" so I think that would have to be who Elayne's twins are going to be.[/quote']

 

Actually, they're just brother and sister and nothing that I know of requires them to be twins. I also don't know of anything that says Elayne is having twins. Just that she wishes Min had said if her baby, always singular, at least through Crossroads of Twilight, would be a boy or a girl. Melaine, one of the Aiel Wise One's, is having twins.

[The Drewman Reborn]

Also' date=' on the subject of Elayne's babies, I remember reading somewhere about a few of the different Heroes and two of them were twins whose birth "Heralded the coming of a new age" so I think that would have to be who Elayne's twins are going to be.[/quote']

 

Actually, they're just brother and sister and nothing that I know of requires them to be twins. I also don't know of anything that says Elayne is having twins. Just that she wishes Min had said if her baby, always singular, at least through Crossroads of Twilight, would be a boy or a girl. Melaine, one of the Aiel Wise One's, is having twins.

 

“She’ll [Elayne’ll] get with child from this. Two of them; a boy and a girl; both healthy and strong.â€

 

-Winter’s Heart, A Lily In Winter

 

two kids in one lay means twins. They might not be identical twins, but they will be twins

[Guest cwestervelt]

Also' date=' on the subject of Elayne's babies, I remember reading somewhere about a few of the different Heroes and two of them were twins whose birth "Heralded the coming of a new age" so I think that would have to be who Elayne's twins are going to be.[/quote']

 

Actually, they're just brother and sister and nothing that I know of requires them to be twins. I also don't know of anything that says Elayne is having twins. Just that she wishes Min had said if her baby, always singular, at least through Crossroads of Twilight, would be a boy or a girl. Melaine, one of the Aiel Wise One's, is having twins.

 

“She’ll [Elayne’ll] get with child from this. Two of them; a boy and a girl; both healthy and strong.â€

 

-Winter’s Heart, A Lily In Winter

 

two kids in one lay means twins. They might not be identical twins, but they will be twins

 

My mistake. I was too lazy to look it up. My only excuse is that I'm in the middle an Elayne section in Crossroads of Twilight, and she doesn't have that info. Just that Min had a viewing and Aviendha and Birgitte were too drunk to remember it.

 

That does allow for them to be the heroes then. It's unlikely that we will ever be able to do more than speculate though.

[Guest TigerToe]

I was think that since the threads of Birgette and cain are always woven together, that maybe her being RIPPED out in such a fashion that perhaps an Uglyboy somewhere was fitted with the Gaidal Pattern (like lewis therrin in rands head) or mat the general ...those are just a couple of examples.

 

the wheel weaves as the wheel wills! Like RJ himself could stop it!! :lol:

[Link]

I was all psyched because I registered to talk on the forums and express my own theories and the first thing that I read is my Olver is Cain theory already posted, but I thought that's OK because I wanted to bring up the idea that maybe Cain's soul was ripped out of TAR and put into a person like Lews Therin, but TigerToe beat me to that one too.

 

But, I do agree with this theory or at least Olver will be an extreamly important warrior later, because think about who he hangs around with. Mat is the greatest General of the age and what else is Olver going to learn, but things like war and battle and I think that the age difference is small enough that he could still fall in love with Birgette

[Paradoxic]

From the great and mighty WoT FAQ:

 

"RJ made the question moot at a post-COT signing in Dayton, OH [report by Tim Kington]:

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

 

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

 

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

 

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously." - http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.5_gaidal.html

[alCal]

But' date=' I do agree with this theory or at least Olver will be an extreamly important warrior later, because think about who he hangs around with. [/quote']

 

I don't think Oliver's fate is to become a warrior. His task is simply to tell Mat and & co how to get into the tower of Ghenjei (sp?) when it's time to save Moiraine.

[Guest Lord Captain Valda]

It's obvious. RJ definately said no. Gaidal Cain is not Olver.

[GoodGrief]

Hey look, it's another of these Olver=Cain threads that crops up every few weeks and persists despite being skewered within the first five posts. At least the title manages to spell little Olly's name right in this one.

 

Guys, for all the reasons stated above, Olver cannot be Cain. For all of you who weren't aware of all the evidence and previous discussion against this theory: now you know. We really need a 'Frequently discussed' thread for newcomers.

 

For those inclined to persist:

 

No one has expained away the author's denial of Olver being Cain. The traditional (actually the only) method is to call RJ a filthy liar.

Anyone? Come on, the author's denial is the white elephant in the room that no one has addressed yet. You have to either drop the idea, sheepishly decide not to comment and thereby condemn this thread to page six, or vilify a man with a life threatening illness just to justify a pet theory. Could that be why no one has touched the issue yet on this particular incarnation of the Olver/Cain thread? Not such an attractive option now? At least you have taste, then. Anyone without taste can go ahead make the comment, my imaginary matches and petrol are waiting. I am so sick of hearing people call RJ a liar because he debunked their pet theories, and it's apparently taken amyloidosis to shut them up. What can I say?

[Leafburner]

Good Grief, Good Grief! You really let them have it.

 

No complaints here. I'm over the Olver = Cain, Taim = Demandred theories. I don't have a problem with those individuals who have not heard that RJ has denied they are, but I agree with GG that I am over those who know and choose to flog that dead horse anyway.

 

BORED! New thread please!

[GoodGrief]

Yeah, I always seem to come across threads like this just after I've spent a weekend getting rained on or being deprived of sleep by a continuous stream of drunks passing under my window, which doesn't help, so I tend to come screaming in with a megaphone in one hand and a flaming torch in the other rather than just quietly state my displeasure and recap all the arguments against like everyone else does. Oh well, the thread needed spicing up.

[Blade]

I know this theory has already been murdered by RJ, but a quick point is that RJ has also said that you aren't born ta'veren, so it could be possible for the spirit of Cain to be reborn into the character after character was actually born.

[Paradoxic]

I know this theory has already been murdered by RJ' date=' but a quick point is that RJ has also said that you aren't born ta'veren, so it could be possible for the spirit of Cain to be reborn into the character after character was actually born.[/quote']

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

 

I'd say that Olver is, in no way, Gaidal Cain... nor will he ever become Gaidal Cain. Come on people, give it up. You can't get a more straight answer from RJ than a one word denial.