Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Recommended Posts

Posted
  On 4/22/2025 at 10:40 PM, Mailman said:

IMO he is somewhere along the path of I don't want people trying to control and manipulate me path and for this version of his character to just insta forgive Moiraine for conspiring with Lanfear to isolate him and control him feels wrong.

Expand  

First, the show, despite a marked improvement this season, still has quite a few cases of bad writing. Then, Rand has the misfortune of being in the same plotline with the series headliner Rosamund Pike (Moiraine) and showrunner favorite Egwene. It's quite some achievement, I should say, that Josha Stradowski manages to portray a remarkably close-to-books Rand.

And the problem is, we don't have anything remotely close to book experiences to flesh out Rand (and his relations). This Rand never went on a daring stealth recovery of the Horn of Valere and never went through the Game of Houses plot in Cairhien. His relationship with Selene (btw I'm super fine with the show's interpretation, esp. as Natasha O'Keefe does a terrific job as Lanfear) is way different. He never had the character-shaping battle with Ishamael in Falme, he never saved the forces of Shienar in Tarwin's Gap. He never took the Stone of Tear, he never fell into Caemlyn's Royal Gardens and never kissed Elayne.

He never tried (and succeeded) not to be an Aes Sedai toy of a False Dragon on a leash.

He's basically entitled right now, as a combination of plot hacking fallout across three seasons and occasional bad writing, to do and to be as Rafe damn well pleases. Once again, big thanks to Josha for giving us the Rand we'd like to see despite all that.

Posted
  On 4/23/2025 at 5:43 PM, Elglin said:

First, the show, despite a marked improvement this season, still has quite a few cases of bad writing. Then, Rand has the misfortune of being in the same plotline with the series headliner Rosamund Pike (Moiraine) and showrunner favorite Egwene. It's quite some achievement, I should say, that Josha Stradowski manages to portray a remarkably close-to-books Rand.

And the problem is, we don't have anything remotely close to book experiences to flesh out Rand (and his relations). This Rand never went on a daring stealth recovery of the Horn of Valere and never went through the Game of Houses plot in Cairhien. His relationship with Selene (btw I'm super fine with the show's interpretation, esp. as Natasha O'Keefe does a terrific job as Lanfear) is way different. He never had the character-shaping battle with Ishamael in Falme, he never saved the forces of Shienar in Tarwin's Gap. He never took the Stone of Tear, he never fell into Caemlyn's Royal Gardens and never kissed Elayne.

He never tried (and succeeded) not to be an Aes Sedai toy of a False Dragon on a leash.

He's basically entitled right now, as a combination of plot hacking fallout across three seasons and occasional bad writing, to do and to be as Rafe damn well pleases. Once again, big thanks to Josha for giving us the Rand we'd like to see despite all that.

Expand  

 

Well said. I like the show and have watched all three seasons at least twice, but the biggest disappointment for me has been how Rand has been screwed out of his defining moments. Moments that shape the character. Instead these moments are taken from him and given, mostly, to Egwene and Moiraine, for no good reason that I can see. I really don't like how they dealt with ending his and Egwene's relationship, in the books it was mutual with both of them being relieved that the other wasn't horribly hurt by the decision, with Egwene even then "handing" him over to Elayne, but in the TV show he is just a two-timing p.o.s. that has "lain with a shadow-souled", I did not enjoy that.

 

Although I would continue to watch, hoping it continues to get better, I now also find myself not being particularly bothered if it ends here, which is a real shame.

 

Some other thoughts:

 

When Moiraine walked into the cave where Sammael was held she seemed a bit off to me, the way she spoke and acted almost seemed like it wasn't Moiraine but someone who simply looked like her. I half expected to see her face change to Lanfear's when she left the room, but that didn't happen. I watched the scene again and she still seems a bit off in that scene, though that feeling continued with all of her scene's after that, so I guess it was just something not character related, maybe the actress had something happen to cause a slight change in these scenes.

 

When Elayne used the balefire rod she did it differently to the BA sister. The BA sister channeled into the end that fired the balefire, whereas Elayne channeled into it from the back of the rod. I wonder if that is why it was unstable for the BA sister and fine for Elayne, or if that was coincidental.

 

I missed that Matt was hanging from a spear in the first watch and caught it in the second, so hopefully this means he will have his Ashanderai, I was looking forward to that.

 

I have read some people consider that Min might take the role of Jain, I also wonder if Min is also going to take over the role that Birgitte played with Elayne and Salidar?

 

 

 

Posted
  On 4/24/2025 at 10:14 AM, JayceDa said:

I really don't like how they dealt with ending his and Egwene's relationship, in the books it was mutual with both of them being relieved that the other wasn't horribly hurt by the decision, with Egwene even then "handing" him over to Elayne, but in the TV show he is just a two-timing p.o.s. that has "lain with a shadow-souled", I did not enjoy that.

Expand  

Well, two-timing is statistically pretty frequent, so I wouldn't put it against him.

That's not the problem. The problem is that Rand's romantic arc got screwed dramatically. In the books, Egwene was pretty against a romantic liaison with a freaking Dragon Reborn, and due to this and else, they gradually drifted apart, which was best summed by Min close to the end of TGH: "You tossed him aside for the White Tower. What should you care if I pick him up?"

Selene notwithstanding, between Elayne, Else Grinwell, and Berelain, between Lan, Hurin, and Thom (and Loial), Rand had no shortage in both romantic flings and healthy relationships with people who cared for him on a personal level. So by the end of TSR, he's a pretty level-headed person who kind of is in a long-distance relationship with Elayne. Yeah, Jordan had no clue how to write romance, so what.

In the show, Rand is screwed. Selene, for a long time, is the only freaking person who at least says she cares for him (and imho she really does, in her own way, of course). Hurin and Loial being absent, there's zero reason not to screw her, especially as she's all for it. And continuously through Season 2, Lanfear is the only person who really cares for Rand on a personal level - sure, in her own way, but beggars can't be choosers.

In the books, at Falme, Lanfear quips to Min: "Tend him well for me until I come for him." Since then, she did keep some tabs on him, but since her concern is not losing him to that milksop Ilyena, she probably cared little and less for Berelain and even Elayne.

In the show, Egwene and Rand kind of rekindle their relationship, although both don't have their hearts in it, and Lanfear starts torturing Egwene... just because she can, really. Well, not great, not terrible, but then we have Rand dramatically breaking up with Lanfear on that, and... Rafe's biggest screw-up.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. What happened to Lanfear after she learned Rand had lain with Aviendha? She went bonkers, and not in "revenge is best served cold" mode, but in the "I'll kill them all right freaking now" mode. And that was the same Lanfear, who, at the end of TSR, said: "I thought you had realized you did not love that little farmgirl." and "I do not kill without cause, Lews Therin. I do not even hurt without cause."

What of that did we get in the show? Lanfear going for Moiraine? Oh, please, it was Egwene who should have ended up (only mostly) dead.

So here's the problem. Due to lots of people either getting cut or not being where they should have been or when they should have been there, Rand's romantic plotline, itself hardly strong in the books, got completely destroyed, and in a rather nonsensical way.

 

So, yeah, the show managed to make Rand's love life even less plausible than it was in the books. A round of applause is well-warranted.

Posted
  On 4/24/2025 at 12:12 PM, Elglin said:

Well, two-timing is statistically pretty frequent, so I wouldn't put it against him.

That's not the problem. The problem is that Rand's romantic arc got screwed dramatically. In the books, Egwene was pretty against a romantic liaison with a freaking Dragon Reborn, and due to this and else, they gradually drifted apart, which was best summed by Min close to the end of TGH: "You tossed him aside for the White Tower. What should you care if I pick him up?"

Selene notwithstanding, between Elayne, Else Grinwell, and Berelain, between Lan, Hurin, and Thom (and Loial), Rand had no shortage in both romantic flings and healthy relationships with people who cared for him on a personal level. So by the end of TSR, he's a pretty level-headed person who kind of is in a long-distance relationship with Elayne. Yeah, Jordan had no clue how to write romance, so what.

In the show, Rand is screwed. Selene, for a long time, is the only freaking person who at least says she cares for him (and imho she really does, in her own way, of course). Hurin and Loial being absent, there's zero reason not to screw her, especially as she's all for it. And continuously through Season 2, Lanfear is the only person who really cares for Rand on a personal level - sure, in her own way, but beggars can't be choosers.

In the books, at Falme, Lanfear quips to Min: "Tend him well for me until I come for him." Since then, she did keep some tabs on him, but since her concern is not losing him to that milksop Ilyena, she probably cared little and less for Berelain and even Elayne.

In the show, Egwene and Rand kind of rekindle their relationship, although both don't have their hearts in it, and Lanfear starts torturing Egwene... just because she can, really. Well, not great, not terrible, but then we have Rand dramatically breaking up with Lanfear on that, and... Rafe's biggest screw-up.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. What happened to Lanfear after she learned Rand had lain with Aviendha? She went bonkers, and not in "revenge is best served cold" mode, but in the "I'll kill them all right freaking now" mode. And that was the same Lanfear, who, at the end of TSR, said: "I thought you had realized you did not love that little farmgirl." and "I do not kill without cause, Lews Therin. I do not even hurt without cause."

What of that did we get in the show? Lanfear going for Moiraine? Oh, please, it was Egwene who should have ended up (only mostly) dead.

So here's the problem. Due to lots of people either getting cut or not being where they should have been or when they should have been there, Rand's romantic plotline, itself hardly strong in the books, got completely destroyed, and in a rather nonsensical way.

 

So, yeah, the show managed to make Rand's love life even less plausible than it was in the books. A round of applause is well-warranted.

Expand  

I thought Egwene was the likely target for Lanfear replacing Avhienda.  I thought we were going to get a cool scene of MO and Lan ambushing Lanfear after she attacks Egwene.  Then Rand would get attacked by Asmodean and sucked into Dreamworld Rhuidean after Aiel chiefs declared him Car a Carn when he quietly told history.  Mo and Egwene could get pulled into Telanrhiod after Lan gets knocked out.  Mo and and Lanfear both get badly wounded and leave the dream giving us our fake out deaths.  Egwene sees Rand and Asmo both barely alive.  She blasts Asmo allowing Rand to shield him then the 3 leave the Dream returning to just clan chiefs standing in rain.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/24/2025 at 12:12 PM, Elglin said:

two-timing is statistically pretty frequent, so I wouldn't put it against him.

Expand  

This is silly. Rand wasn’t two timing Egwene at any point. Rand was “dead” when he met “Selene”. No cheating there. By the time we make it to S3, all of their interactions are in the dream. 

 

  On 4/24/2025 at 12:12 PM, Elglin said:

Egwene was pretty against a romantic liaison with a freaking Dragon Reborn, and due to this and else, they gradually drifted apart,

Expand  

That literally happens in the show. 

 

  On 4/24/2025 at 12:12 PM, Elglin said:

What of that did we get in the show? Lanfear going for Moiraine?

Expand  

Mo put a big dome over Alcair Dahl. She may have been intending to go for Egwene. Mo was in the way. And it wasn’t as if Lanfear had no beef with Moiraine. 

 

  On 4/24/2025 at 12:12 PM, Elglin said:

Rand's romantic plotline, itself hardly strong in the books, got completely destroyed, and in a rather nonsensical way.

Expand  

How? He’s free now. He’s with Avi (who has been slowly gaining respect for him) in the waste now. And he has already developed a nice relationship with Elayne. 
 

With the exception of Min, Rand is exactly where he was in the books - romantically speaking. With the caveat that he and Elayne haven’t made out. 
 

  • Community Administrator
Posted
  On 4/24/2025 at 10:14 AM, JayceDa said:

When Moiraine walked into the cave where Sammael was held she seemed a bit off to me, the way she spoke and acted almost seemed like it wasn't Moiraine but someone who simply looked like her. I half expected to see her face change to Lanfear's when she left the room, but that didn't happen. I watched the scene again and she still seems a bit off in that scene, though that feeling continued with all of her scene's after that, so I guess it was just something not character related, maybe the actress had something happen to cause a slight change in these scenes.

Expand  

When I watched that scene, I did consider that maybe that was Lanfear posing as Moiraine.

 

Because what happens next?

 

We get Lanfear's meeting with Rand.

 

Rand Betrays' Lanfear, Egwene shunts her out, and Moiraine, Rand, Egwene and Company expect Lanfear to Attack... Then they all go running off to Alcair Dal... 

 

If Moiraine had captured Sammael... why didn't she bring him along... in a box and instead leave him behind in a cave, unguarded?

 

Also, we literally do see Lanfear in that same camp, dressed as a Maiden. So it's not impossible for her to have been there. And, if she had tossed ol' Sammy into T'A'R, it wouldn't even be a stretch for show viewers to think she could look like someone else... since she literally did that in Season 2.

Posted
  On 4/24/2025 at 1:38 PM, Elder_Haman said:

This is silly. Rand wasn’t two timing Egwene at any point. Rand was “dead” when he met “Selene”. No cheating there. By the time we make it to S3, all of their interactions are in the dream. 

Expand  

Thought-crime is still a crime, citizen. Especially if both girls can and do read your thoughts.

 

  On 4/24/2025 at 1:38 PM, Elder_Haman said:

How? He’s free now. He’s with Avi (who has been slowly gaining respect for him) in the waste now. And he has already developed a nice relationship with Elayne. 
 

With the exception of Min, Rand is exactly where he was in the books - romantically speaking. With the caveat that he and Elayne haven’t made out. 

Expand  

I beg to differ. A major part of the tension between Avi and Rand was that Avi promised to watch him for Elayne, then found herself thrust at him, then found herself falling for him, then saw in Rhuidean in no uncertain terms that she will fall for him and will lay with him and will break her promise to Elayne, and (hopefully we see it next season) then Rand in his wisdom and oblivion stumbled perfectly through the Aiel courtship rituals with all-around approval. This won't happen here. "There's that girl I had a one-night stand with, and now I am falling for a guy, am I cheating?" is pretty lame compared to Avi's conflict in the books.

I may not be reading Ayoola Smart properly, but I haven't seen anything like "looking at him most of the time as if he had committed some crime against her". I read her mimics as half annoyed and half bored - which is quite plausible for Avi exactly if this moral conflict isn't there to begin with.

 

Rand's "nice relationship with Elayne" is hardly at the book point of him leaving the Royal Gardens; and the Avi-Elayne relationship (including the dream Egwene witnessed) hardly leaves any place for him in Elayne's love life, at least at the moment.

Ironically, as related to Min, Rand is exactly where he was in the books, pretty oblivious - it's she who isn't there.

 

Thus, no, romantically Rand isn't where he was in the books, and neither are all the five females involved (Egwene, Min, Lanfear, Elayne, Aviendha).

Book: long since peacefully drifted away from Egwene, unaware of Min who kind of holds the torch for him, treading carefully around Lanfear, kind of in a long distance yet committed relationship with Elayne, pretty oblivious to Aviendha's having an internal conflict and a growing UST towards him.

Show: freshly broken up with Egwene in an equally dramatic and dumb fashion, unaware of Min not having any feelings towards him, freshly broken with Lanfear after having a much more invested relationship than ever in the books, in no relationship with Elayne whatsoever who herself holds a torch for someone else, and Rafe only knows whether anything with Aviendha is going to be a thing.

That's not "exactly where he was", that's not even the same area code.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/24/2025 at 5:00 PM, Elglin said:

Thus, no, romantically Rand isn't where he was in the books

Expand  

Obviously, he's not in the same *emotional* place in terms of the specific details of his relationships with any of those characters. But he is in the same *physical* place related to those characters and has planted seeds of a relationship with each. Rand is likely to start a relationship with Avi next season. At this point, you're right - she looks at him was if she is mostly annoyed or bored. When she starts developing feelings, I suspect we will see more of the looks that you describe. We have already seen hints of her admiration for him. I bet you anything we get the igloo scene at which point *some* of the complications regarding Avi's feelings about Elayne will become important.

 

For me, his romantic journey in the show is perfectly fine. He struggled letting go of his first love (and she struggled letting go of him), even though they both knew, deep down, that it wasn't right. Then, a young, naive shepherd boy in the big city for the first time, alone and bereft, he is seduced by an older woman who shows him things he hadn't experienced before. She turned out to be crazy, but it sure is hard to let go of that 'I can fix her' feeling - especially when you're the Dragon Reborn! And that's it. 

 

Now, for the first time, Rand is free of entanglements. He and Egwene have recognized the futility of their relationship (in a pretty mature and not terribly dramatic way). At the same time, he's come to terms with his naivete when it comes to Lanfear. He has (as is thematically appropriate for the season) come into his own power. He's no longer the boy bringing baskets of berries.

 

There's nothing wrong with this arc and certainly nothing about Rand's romances has been irrevocably broken. (Though I doubt we see anything between Rand and Min in the show.)

Posted

I have my own personal hatred of people, and this does indeed translate over to characters in stories that I read, who cheat. Rand never did that in the books, it wasn't even hinted at, he had his own internal emotional struggles regarding his feelings for Min, Elayne, Avi and Egwene, but he never cheated on them. Egwene and Rand ended their relationship, which wasn't really a relationship just a form of "promise" to each other, amicably and maturely.

 

In the show his relationship with Egwene ends because he "has lain" with Lanfear, not because they weren't right for each other and needed to go their own separate ways, destined for different things. Now they get to hold this over his head, as per the comment from Avi that he "has lain with a shadow-souled" with all the scorn that she could add behind those words. That one minor detail has really put me off.

Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 10:32 AM, JayceDa said:

I have my own personal hatred of people, and this does indeed translate over to characters in stories that I read, who cheat. Rand never did that in the books, it wasn't even hinted at, he had his own internal emotional struggles regarding his feelings for Min, Elayne, Avi and Egwene, but he never cheated on them. Egwene and Rand ended their relationship, which wasn't really a relationship just a form of "promise" to each other, amicably and maturely.

 

In the show his relationship with Egwene ends because he "has lain" with Lanfear, not because they weren't right for each other and needed to go their own separate ways, destined for different things. Now they get to hold this over his head, as per the comment from Avi that he "has lain with a shadow-souled" with all the scorn that she could add behind those words. That one minor detail has really put me off.

Expand  

Technically Rand cheats on Elayne in the books with Aviendha.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 3:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

Three truths need to be stressed here:

1. Yes, Rand was cheating on Egwene with Lanfear in Season 3.

 

2. Yes, his doing so can be morally judged.

 

3. No, it doesn't automatically make him a 'lesser' character.

Expand  

Hard disagree. 

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 10:32 AM, JayceDa said:

In the show his relationship with Egwene ends because he "has lain" with Lanfear, not because they weren't right for each other and needed to go their own separate ways, destined for different things.

Expand  

No. No. No. 

Lanfear was the catalyst for the final split. But their separation due to different destinies was established in the very first episode. 

Posted (edited)
  On 4/25/2025 at 3:50 PM, Elder_Haman said:

He wasn’t cheating on Egwene at any point in the show. Since he wasn’t cheating, he should not be morally judged. 

Expand  

 

In the interim between Seasons 2 and 3, Rand and Egwene had explicitly resumed their previous relationship, although it was on shaky ground due to Egwene's PTSD (which, come to find out, was being explicitly exacerbated by Lanfear).

 

Simultaneous to all this, and without having formally ended his relationship with Egwene (their argument prior to her leaving their shared tent to move into a tent with Bair and Melaene wasnt an official breakup), Rand allowed Lanfear to re-seduce him in his own dreams (granted, it only happened right before Egwene caught them, but the point is that he still allowed it to happen).

Edited by DigificWriter
  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 3:58 PM, DigificWriter said:

in his … dreams

Expand  

Rand has no training in the dream. His dreams are simply dreams. It is Rand’s subconscious that is being manipulated. 
 

Dreaming about cheating on your spouse is not the same as cheating on your spouse. 

Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 4:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Rand has no training in the dream. His dreams are simply dreams. It is Rand’s subconscious that is being manipulated. 
 

Dreaming about cheating on your spouse is not the same as cheating on your spouse. 

Expand  

 

In our real world, I can see your point, but in a world like WoT where dreams aren't just dreams, allowing somebody who isn't your partner to seduce you is absolutely cheating because it's as real as seeking out an illicit relationship with someone who isn't your partner whilst you're fully awake.

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 4:07 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

In our real world, I can see your point, but in a world like WoT where dreams aren't just dreams, allowing somebody who isn't your partner to seduce you is absolutely cheating because it's as real as seeking out an illicit relationship with someone who isn't your partner whilst you're fully awake.

Expand  

The fact that T’a’R exists doesn’t change the nature of normal dreams. That is why it is dangerous for people to cross there from their own dreams. 
 

Lanfear uses her abilities to enter Rand’s mundane dreams in the same way Egwene did to Perrin and Mat and Elayne. Once in his dreams, Lanfear uses his own subconscious mind to her advantage. It’s in no way a consensual encounter. 
 

Does Egwene allow Lanfear to abuse her? Of course not. Same analysis here. 

  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 4:37 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Except in every single dream of Rand's that we see in Season 3, he's fully aware that he's interacting with the real Lanfear.

Expand  

How does that make their interactions in Rand’s dreams consensual?

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...