S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Sabio]

The Finn looked way too much like it was from Dr Seuss to me, very cartoony.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:48 AM, Sabio said:

The Finn looked way too much like it was from Dr Seuss to me, very cartoony.

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Yes!  You nailed it with Seuss.  I give it a pass because it was going to be weird no matter what.  I wonder what non-readers thought.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:42 AM, Mailman said:

Rand unaided seems to have affected scenes across the world.

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The dragon is one with the land.

 

The strange weather in the books, is correlated to Rand's wound as much as it is to the DO's touch increasing as its seals weaken.

 

Rand's corruption from the wound, and the taint from Saidin allows the DO a direct connection to the Land, which allows the DO to better manipulate the weather, and further affect things like weather and rot in the land effects in chaotic ways.

Edited April 18 by SinisterDeath
Grammer/sentence structure

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/17/2025 at 7:53 PM, SinisterDeath said:

This is likely merging several characters and tossing them in front of Lan.

One which is that DF character from New Spring, and Intgar's redemption arc that we didn't get in season 2 all rolled up in to Melindhra as an exposition vehicle to tell the audience more about Lan's background and culture to potentially drive the scene we better get that involves Nynaeve dropping Lan off in the middle of nowhere...

 

People be shipping Mat and Min because of this, but dudes... that wasn't a kiss, and Mat just be horny.

 

I don't think we're losing Salidar. Or rather, Salidar may become the Fish Hut.

Note: We see the Mirror in the Amyrlin's room get moved, and we know that links to said fish hut.

I think what we're going to lose, is Egwene getting captured on the boat turning the chains to Cuendillar.

I think instead, she's going to get captured inside the tower, after going through the mirror. She might be trying to turn the chains from inside the tower, I don't know. Or some other purpose, but this could be a Season 5 thing.

I honestly would have liked it better if they decapitated Moiraine. Not a big fan of losing Valda, Loial and Siuan all in one season.

 

There's lots of people going on about how Rand being in a relationship with Elayne, Aviendha, and Min is all kinds of "icky and wrong", but it's "fine" if he's in a relationship with Elayne and Aviendha, and that's totally not a Haram either, but it is if Min is there.  So now they're shipping Mat and Min.

 

So here's an idea.

 

Min = Jain Farstrider.

Way back in Season 1, when Egwene was talking about her favorite book, she referred to Jain Farstrider as a she.

Min is apparently already far travelled. She's been to Tanchico already apparently.

 

Given that, why can't she be Jain Farstrider? And why can't Jain Farstrider be a Pen Name? And why can't it be a Pen Name that can be passed down from one Jain Farstrider to the next?

Look at Jain Farstrider's "arc" in the books, and compare it to Min and her connection to Ishamael and Liandrin? There's a case here to be made that she can replace Jain Farstrider... and now you have your 3 for if Mat and Thom ever go into the Tower.

 

Now we just have to push Moiraine and Lanfear into the doorway in tear next season...

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On Melindhra - I get what they did with her character, and I was okay with it, but it is an aphorism in WoT  - you heard it in the episode - that no one can walk so long in the dark and not come back to the light. So unless this DO soul claiming thing is paid off with a certain tea drinking brown or a honey blonde girl from Tanchico, I don't know why they bothered to introduce that topic

 

I'm okay with the 3 people we lost - Dain is being given a much more prominent role, and I expect that we don't get Morgase's road trip with it's really questionable decisions in Amador; Loial was a really expensive exposition dump with a comic release subplot (can be Thom), and cutting Siuan (pardon the pun) and her subplot frees up a bunch of time

 

Min being Jain Farstrider - especially if they keep the outcome - would actually be awesome. And removing her visions from Tarmon Gaidon would really up the uncertainty.

 

And yes, time to push them through the door for a couple of seasons.

 

[Yamezt]

  On 4/17/2025 at 7:53 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I don't think we're losing Salidar. Or rather, Salidar may become the Fish Hut

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On Instagram AMA:

Question: Big changes from the books in ep8. Are we going to see Salidar? (Providing renewal news!)
Rafe Judkins: We have a lot planned for Salidar. There’s a cut scene we will hopefully get to show someday of Ryma, Verin and Leane leaving the White Tower with a group of Aes Sedai to “gather on the shores of the river where Siuan was born”.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/17/2025 at 8:19 PM, Yamezt said:

 

I would love to know what goes in Moiraine's head - A pity TV isn't a great medium for that - "I saw myself die a thousand times after a thousand times in this gorgeously splendid dress in the middle of the dessert. If I die, I shall look as splendid as I did in my visions." Priorities ❤️ I wonder what Moiraine was doing channeling in the dessert. This is the second(?) time she has done this now - training to master Sakarnen?

 

Yay, Nynaeve block is gone - though a pity we didn't see the Mog show-down

 

Guesses for the future assuming renewal (hopefully!)

-Moiraine - I guess she would play Cadsuane's role moving forward? Makes sense why Shohreh Aghdashloo was cast as Elaida when she is a fan favourite for Cadsuane. I do like her a Elaida.

 

-Alanna/Maksim - So I previously thought Moiraine would die and Lan would transfer to Alanna. If Moiraine is playing Cadsuane, perhaps beside being a composite of Myrelle/Alanna, she might also be Merise. Wouldn't surprise me if Maksim become an Asha'man (composite with Narishma).

 

-We're not sure if Leanne was stilled. I assume she would play the role of mentor for Egwene. Or maybe forgotten. Would love to see the actress some more.

 

-I wonder if Liandrin would end up playing Elza's role in wearing the Domination band. Would Mog play Semi's role in that too?

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Moraine knows in most visions, she dies in that dress at Lanfear's hands, and if she doesn't die, Rand loses. Hence, where the dress

 

She is training with the Sarkanen for the same reason Lan trains with the sword. with the added bonus of building up a resistance to the euphoria, so she can think straight

 

They'll give Moggy/Nyn the time it deserves.  it would not have been done justice, similar to them moving Mat and the boys.

 

Leanne hasn't been stilled yet, or killed. Where her story goes from here, I don't know. Maybe that red ferret who uses the oath rod later in the books, maybe Verin's arc, maybe Siuan's advisor role. Or, she could be carted off in ep 1 next season

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:12 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

On Melindhra - I get what they did with her character, and I was okay with it, but it is an aphorism in WoT  - you heard it in the episode - that no one can walk so long in the dark and not come back to the light. So unless this DO soul claiming thing is paid off with a certain tea drinking brown or a honey blonde girl from Tanchico, I don't know why they bothered to introduce that topic

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From a WoT cosmology standpoint, not even balefire completely wipes a soul from the pattern..

So this B.S. about breaking the dark oaths is likely that.

B.S.

Ishamal was literally the Lord of Lies. He gas lit every generation of dark friends, and the entire continent into "believing" this lie that you'd lose your soul if you broke your dark oaths... What better way to make sure you keep them?

 

Specially when you literally see people DIE when they break them!

 

Doesn't mean people don't get reborn at a cosmological level in the next turning. Maybe not the next age, or the age after that. But who would ever know? There's no soul keepers. There's no ledger. There's no way to track down a soul and find out a specific soul after it's reborn...

[Figs and Mice]

The main thing I am happy about with this episode is that we do get the Finn...

 

Leads me to suspect that Moiraine and Lanfear will probably still end up falling into that doorway - possibly in Tear ?

 

Mat has his medallion - and the ashrandei too perhaps ?  He presumably still needs another trip through to meet the snakes and receive the stuff about giving up half the light of the world etc , and The Daughter of the Nine Moons (although if he instead of Rand is being paired up with Min , are we even getting Tuon ? )  Bit late for him to be warned to go to Rhuidean or die and he has already been hanged but I reckon the other bits are still needed.

 

The Fox did look a bit cartoonish but was menacing enough so no problem there. Tower of Ghengei looking more likely than not as long as the show makes it that far...

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:20 AM, SinisterDeath said:

From a WoT cosmology standpoint, not even balefire completely wipes a soul from the pattern..

So this B.S. about breaking the dark oaths is likely that.

B.S.

Ishamal was literally the Lord of Lies. He gas lit every generation of dark friends, and the entire continent into "believing" this lie that you'd lose your soul if you broke your dark oaths... What better way to make sure you keep them?

 

Specially when you literally see people DIE when they break them!

 

Doesn't mean people don't get reborn at a cosmological level in the next turning. Maybe not the next age, or the age after that. But who would ever know? There's no soul keepers. There's no ledger. There's no way to track down a soul and find out a specific soul after it's reborn...

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Except...I am fairly sure I saw Melindhra's soul rip from her body, tinged in black, as she died, and Ishamel is currently dead, and we see later on in the episode that weaves don't outlive their weaver. So something else dark actually claimed her soul. And another name for the DO is the Lord of the Grave, and we see him bring back people who had sworn to him. So there is something else here, IMO. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:30 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

Except...I am fairly sure I saw Melindhra's soul rip from her body, tinged in black, as she died, and Ishamel is currently dead, and we see later on in the episode that weaves don't outlive their weaver. So something else dark actually claimed her soul. And another name for the DO is the Lord of the Grave, and we see him bring back people who had sworn to him. So there is something else here, IMO. 

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Sure, but that still doesn't mean that the DO just "erases" said soul from existence.

 

In WoT cosmology, there's the Creator, the DO, and then there's the Wheel.

 

The show may well be doing it's own bloody thing, but even in the show logic, Ishy is a Liar. Lanfear is a Gas lighter. Moggy is a Manpilator.

 

To paraphrase RJ... Why would we believe the Forsaken?

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:26 AM, Figs and Mice said:

The main thing I am happy about with this episode is that we do get the Finn...

 

Leads me to suspect that Moiraine and Lanfear will probably still end up falling into that doorway - possibly in Tear ?

 

Mat has his medallion - and the ashrandei too perhaps ?  He presumably still needs another trip through to meet the snakes and receive the stuff about giving up half the light of the world etc , and The Daughter of the Nine Moons (although if he instead of Rand is being paired up with Min , are we even getting Tuon ? )  Bit late for him to be warned to go to Rhuidean or die and he has already been hanged but I reckon the other bits are still needed.

 

The Fox did look a bit cartoonish but was menacing enough so no problem there. Tower of Ghengei looking more likely than not as long as the show makes it that far...

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The Rhuidean warning was his first trip - the second one was "to live, and die, and live again, to wed the daughter of the nine moons, and to the give up half the light of the world" And all 3 of those moments can easily be post Tear

 

And I guarantee we get Tuon. They killed Turak and Renne, and broke Suroth. We're not with the Seanchan yet, and they need a new leader; hence, Tuon

 

I have no complaints with the Fox - better than a lot of fantasy near humans, and he go the hunger right

 

 

[DreadLord31]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:36 AM, SinisterDeath said:

To paraphrase RJ... Why would we believe the Forsaken?

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Cause the Chosen are awesome in WoTTv. 
 

The writers keeping their metaphysics consistent? More likely than not that they’re not 😉 

[DreadLord31]

Upon a rewatch … a number of writing … problems … I noticed in this episode:

 

#1 being the insta-death of a darkfriend breaking their oath (that not a thing & a metaphysical challenge as has been noted) 

 

#2 did Min knock a BA out and then just leave her instead of kill her or capture her? If Chesmal is suddenly just “back” with Liandrin in S4 that’s gonna be funny 

 

#3 did Egwene just beat Lanfear in the Dreamworld in Rands dream? 
 

#4 they killed Suian but … what … let Leane go? 
 

#5 did they beat Siuan to a bloody pulp with the power only to … hours later … behead her with the OP? Isn’t that a giveaway that 

  Reveal hidden contents

Alviarian is a DF - otherwise - you can’t be killing ppl with the power unless you are in danger or convinced they really are a DF 

#6 man, again it looked to me like Avi was channeling flaming swords (people will say “no they’re spears - I really don’t think so!) 

 

#7 as was noted, Lan’s “wardering” was once again abysmal because they wanted a Lanfear/Moiraine showdown; my man, Lan has been done just about the dirtiest of any WoT character! 
 

#8 wait, how did Lanfear get Lan’s Sword? What? Moiraine pulls it out and holding the blade side with her bare hand cuts Lanfears throat? And both live? 
 

#9 there are still a number of plots that are … hmmm … what will happen there: a) what’s going on with Elayne’s bros & Morgase & Rahvin b) what’s gonna happen with Couladin/Sevanna and the Shaido c) what’s happening with Perrin d) Liandrin/Moggy has the SAD collar d) Seanchan? e) Callandor f) Semirhage and Grandael have been name dropped but not appeared g) Verin/Galena battle? 
h) Matt’s got new memory problems? 
 

All that being said … if we don’t get a S4 … this is pretty sad. But if we do, there’s still a lot of explaining to do! 
 

I really hope we do! 

[Skipp]

  On 4/18/2025 at 2:32 AM, Mirefox said:

Did Lanfear heal herself this episode?  That’s a no-no.

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She healed herself with the True Power, as she did in season 2.

 

Some people have wondered why Lanfear was able to hold her own against Moiraine with the Chodan Ball.  Well my memory is fuzzy but doesn't Rand mention that using the True power made him as or feel as powerful as when using the Chodan Kal?

 

Lanfear's first attack on Moraine was to separate her from The Sakarnen and then decided to choke her out as the petty B would.  But once Moraine had the Sakarnen back in hand Lanfear was on her back foot until she started using the True power.

[Elder_Haman]

I really enjoyed that episode.

 

Very appropriate that Alviarin is the one who killed Siuan (not Elaida).

 

Enjoyed the fact that Liandrin had just a little too much love for Nynaeve to just straight kill her. I'm feeling like they're setting up an Ingtar arc for Sister Strongjaw.

 

Tower of Ghenji is still in play!!

 

Loved the Finn. Creepy, uncanny, goofy looking one moment, menacing the next. 

 

Looks like they're going to move Mat's 'missing memories' to next season. Interested to see where they go with that.

 

I don't think Thom is dead.

 

Thought Siuan's voiceover at the end went a little long and ended up stealing some of Rand's thunder. Nonetheless, good stuff.

 

Loved the little foreshadowing of "Veins of Gold" at the beginning.

 

Clearly the best season by far. Would be a damn shame if this was it...

[Mailman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 4:14 AM, Skipp said:

 

She healed herself with the True Power, as she did in season 2.

 

Some people have wondered why Lanfear was able to hold her own against Moiraine with the Chodan Ball.  Well my memory is fuzzy but doesn't Rand mention that using the True power made him as or feel as powerful as when using the Chodan Kal?

 

Lanfear's first attack on Moraine was to separate her from The Sakarnen and then decided to choke her out as the petty B would.  But once Moraine had the Sakarnen back in hand Lanfear was on her back foot until she started using the True power.

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It was not that it was more powerful it was that its addictive feel was much more potent than the addictive feel of holding saidin.

Edited April 18 by Mailman

[Figs and Mice]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:37 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

The Rhuidean warning was his first trip - the second one was "to live, and die, and live again, to wed the daughter of the nine moons, and to the give up half the light of the world" And all 3 of those moments can easily be post Tear

 

And I guarantee we get Tuon. They killed Turak and Renne, and broke Suroth. We're not with the Seanchan yet, and they need a new leader; hence, Tuon

 

I have no complaints with the Fox - better than a lot of fantasy near humans, and he go the hunger right

 

 

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Have to contradict you a little there , Jaysen : in fact all of those answers/warnings were given by the Aelfinn on his first trip through the doorway in Tear.  It was on his second trip (in Rhuidean) when he encountered the Eelfinn , who do not answer questions but grant wishes. And gained medallion , memory fix etc... just as he has done in the show.

 

He has already had the die and live again moment - and he isn't going to Rhuidean ; but still  two (important) things to be told - unless they are removing two very significant factors from the story altogether.  And Tear is the logical place for them.

My uncertainty about Tuon though is that her interaction with Mat takes up a lot of pages - and they seem to be (understandably) cutting a lot of complications . Certainly hope they do include her but I'd stop short of a guarantee.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/18/2025 at 4:23 AM, Figs and Mice said:

Have to contradict you a little there , Jaysen : in fact all of those answers/warnings were given by the Aelfinn on his first trip through the doorway in Tear.  It was on his second trip (in Rhuidean) when he encountered the Eelfinn , who do not answer questions but grant wishes. And gained medallion , memory fix etc... just as he has done in the show.

 

He has already had the die and live again moment - and he isn't going to Rhuidean ; but still  two (important) things to be told - unless they are removing two very significant factors from the story altogether.  And Tear is the logical place for them.

My uncertainty about Tuon though is that her interaction with Mat takes up a lot of pages - and they seem to be (understandably) cutting a lot of complications . Certainly hope they do include her but I'd stop short of a guarantee.

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oops - you're right; they weren't the 3 prophecies, they were prophecies 4-6 on the first visit.

 

I don't think he's had the die / live moment - I think that is the Camelyn death, not the hanging. Because in the books, it's not the hanging that separates him from the Horn, and that live again moment also serves the purpose of removing Rahvin from the board. In the immortal words of miracle Max, Mat was only mostly dead from the hanging

 

and i guess here's a way to get rid of Tuon - the Seanchan replace the Sharans, with Semirhage taking Demandred's place with them.  After all, we need an army of Dreadlords from somewhere.

 

But I still think Mat / Tuon happens more or less as in the books; I'd be quite pissed if they don't introduce the moral quandary of "these people own slaves, but serve the light", and simply make all of Seanchan dark friends.

 

 

 

 

[Fiona_12]

That was, for the most part... underwhelming.

 

It was good to see Nyaneave lose her block, although on screen it loses so much.

 

I cried when Siuan died, but I liked her little speech at the end. I'm sorry to see her go. I love Siuan's story in the books, and I really love Sophie in the show.  

 

Moiraine and Lanfear's fight was good in places and weird in others. I'll have to see what I think on a rewatch.

 

We know where Elaida got that bracelet now, but not what it means. Unless I missed something, which I could very well have. I kind of expected to hear an Elton John song playing when she walked in wearing the stole.

 

Mat got his fox head medallion, but lost the memories he gained from blowing the horn? I'm confused. The Aelfinn kind of looked like a character from "Cats", but I kind of liked it.

 

Rand is officially the Caracarn. Yay?

 

No Maksim - YAY!

 

I'll have read the through everyone else's thoughts when it's not my bedtime.

Edited April 18 by Fiona_12

[Figs and Mice]

I actually enjoyed the episode. Partly relief that it wasn't a trainwreck like the first two finales but also because I have by now settled for overlooking the silly stuff at least to an extent (though this regular business of main cast characters being impaled by swords/arrows/spears and basically shrugging it off is getting a bit tired).

 

Lots of changes ; but mostly not unreasonable. We haven't been to Tear yet so no Juilin (we may not get him at all , I suppose) ; so Mat assisting the girls in Tanchico is a decent idea - enables meeting Thom again ; and the museum setting supplying a doorway a convenient way to replace his Rhuidean scenes. Min on hand to do Rand's CPR , fine. She is perhaps the character most changed from her book version , so if she is going to be Mat's sidekick on a regular basis I am OK with it.

 

Would have liked Nynaeve v Moggy but guess that is for the future. Of course Liandrin really should have killed her out of hand instead of that Dumb Villain trope of leaving the hero to die eventually while merrily skipping away but that is just one of the logical holes that one has to accept in this sort of story : I can live with it ; and it did get Nyn a spectacular Block Break ! Since the BA now have the a'dam , I wonder if they are thinking of having Rand collared at some future point ? Perhaps instead of being boxed in the leadup to Dumai's Wells ?  WAFO I guess.

 

Alcair Dal was fine. Maybe having the clan chiefs and wise ones anointing him as the Real Car'a'carn to swing the Aiel masses to acceptance as in the books would have been more convincing than Rand calling "Oathbreakers !" and making it rain ... but , spectacle , eh ?

 

Moiraine and Lanfear punch up after the prophesy of her death a sort of postponement of the inevitable ? We tricked you , audience : but wait for next season...  Poor old Lan still doesn't get to do anything useful...maybe next year.

 

Liked Elayne/Thom. Bit heavy with the balefire perhaps but good to get the Gaebril ain't the real thing reveal.

 

Sammael went from probably dead to prisoner and potential Rand teacher to dead again...so maybe the actor who thought his future appearance as Asmodean had been cancelled can get back to practising his harp playing ?

 

All good fun.  Loads to nitpick if you want but generally this season was lightyears ahead of the first two. Will keep watching assuming the fourth takes place...

[Figs and Mice]

Oh and sorry to see Siuan go out early (what has happened to Leane , I wonder ?)  Maybe means no Gareth Bryne either. Or just less complications for him when he arrives.

 

Not as sad as I was to see Loial exit last week though ! ☹️

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

Was I the only one expecting the Eelfin to start belting out, “Meeeemory, all alone by the moon light….” at any moment?😄

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:20 PM, Mirefox said:

Moiraine shielding Sammael is 100% what is wrong with the garbage-tier writing on this show.  In Season 1, we had something like 8 Aes Sedai keeping a constant shield on Logain, Moiraine included.  Skip two seasons forward and Moiraine just casually drops that, by the way, she can now tie off shields and subdue a Forsaken.  Not earned, not explained, just written that way because that’s how the writers want it.  

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Yes, everything about this was lame. Sammael replacing Asmodean, Lame!  Moiraine shielding Sammael, Lame! Sammael not actually replacing Asmodean, Lame! At the very least they could have had him say, You? Noooo! When Mogedian showed up 🤷

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:34 PM, king of nowhere said:

maksim keeps living because, clearly, they still have something to do with him.

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And I hope that something is teaching him how to act😉

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:13 PM, Irvyne said:

First of all, easily the best season finale yet

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I'm preliminarily throwing a Challenge Flag on this statement.

 

Future reflection might change things, but my initial reaction to this episode is kind of 'whelmed' veering towards 'underwhelmed'.