Wheel of Time Season 3 - Full Season Discussion

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:58 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

It is for me.

 

 

It wouldn't be that outrageous of a thing to do - in terms of narrative simplicity - to make every person in the Hall at the time of Siuan's execution - including Elaida - Darkfriends.

 

 

What's confusing about it? Siuan chose to view it as conflict resolution; Elaida didn't.

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Well that not much arguing with that but we might as well not have the oath on that line of thinking.

 

having them all be DF's could explain it but then you have basically handed the tower to the BA in almost totality.

 

I just dont understand why have that scene at all with how it all played out.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:58 PM, DigificWriter said:

What's confusing about it? Siuan chose to view it as conflict resolution; Elaida didn't.

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Siuan used it to confirm Elaida wasn't a Darkfriend.

 

The confusion is, how did Elaida believe Siuan was still a Darkfriend after that? If she truly believed she was a Darkfriend, then Siuan should have killed her then and there, or let the shadowspawn kill her. 

 

So either

A) They're making Elaida a Darkfriend, which completely under mine's her entire arc

B) They're really making her a special kind of dumb for her to not break the 3 oaths when she claimed Siuan was a Darkfriend.

or 

C) The Writer from Episode 8, didn't review the Writing of that episode and see how those two scenes may have potentially conflicted.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:03 PM, SinisterDeath said:

when she claimed Siuan was a Darkfriend.

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The language was ‘accused of being’. I think she just doesn’t care whether the accusation is true. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:02 PM, Mailman said:

I just dont understand why have that scene at all with how it all played out.

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Perceived conflict resolution on Siuan's part, like I said.

 

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:03 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Siuan used it to confirm Elaida wasn't a Darkfriend.

 

The confusion is, how did Elaida believe Siuan was still a Darkfriend after that? If she truly believed she was a Darkfriend, then Siuan should have killed her then and there, or let the shadowspawn kill her. 

 

So either

A) They're making Elaida a Darkfriend, which completely under mine's her entire arc

B) They're really making her a special kind of dumb for her to not break the 3 oaths when she claimed Siuan was a Darkfriend.

or 

C) The Writer from Episode 8, didn't review the Writing of that episode and see how those two scenes may have potentially conflicted.

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None of Elaida's actions in ascending to the Amrylin Seat would honestly pass intense scrutiny, which is entirely the point from a Meta perspective.

[notpropaganda73]

I thought Elaida looked very slightly uncomfortable in that final scene with Siuan. I think as @Elder_Hamansays, she doesn't care for the truth, only that her goal of deposing Siuan and becoming Amyrlin is coming true. But in that scene there are a couple of shots of her close up where there are flashes of doubt in my opinion. 

 

Now that she's successful, I'm sure she can tell herself a different story to make the actions against Siuan completely justified

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:48 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

I thought Elaida looked very slightly uncomfortable in that final scene with Siuan

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Siuan's words might have momentarily rattled Elaida, but the key word there is 'momentarily'.

[Ralph]

  On 4/22/2025 at 2:05 PM, Elder_Haman said:

The language was ‘accused of being’. I think she just doesn’t care whether the accusation is true. 

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Exactly

 

We only need Elaida to believe that Alviarin believes it

[Sabio]

It fits with ELadia from the book,  if you read about the male channeler program (when the Reds started going around gentling any man who they thought might be able to channel on the spot) breaking tower law and many captured men were killed "trying to escape".  Eladia knew about it and did nothing to stop it; she even did it to gentle Thom's nephew simply because Thom was too close to Morgase.  So even in the book we see Eladia is perfectly fine allowing bad things to happen.  Her not doing anything when Alviarian killed Siuan fits in character with her.  Siuan knew the Dragon was reborn and hid it thus allowing a male who could channel to stay free.  Why should Eladia care two bits about another Aes Sedai blasting her.

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 4:40 PM, Sabio said:

It fits with ELadia from the book,  if you read about the male channeler program (when the Reds started going around gentling any man who they thought might be able to channel on the spot) breaking tower law and many captured men were killed "trying to escape".  Eladia knew about it and did nothing to stop it; she even did it to gentle Thom's nephew simply because Thom was too close to Morgase.  So even in the book we see Eladia is perfectly fine allowing bad things to happen.  Her not doing anything when Alviarian killed Siuan fits in character with her.  Siuan knew the Dragon was reborn and hid it thus allowing a male who could channel to stay free.  Why should Eladia care two bits about another Aes Sedai blasting her.

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Is that book or show about Eladia being specifically involved in Owens gentling as I don't remember her being specifically linked to it in either.

[first when not last]

  On 4/22/2025 at 10:32 AM, Sabio said:

To speak no word that is not true

To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai

 

It's hard not to view killing someone with the one power as using it as a weapon.  But since she was accused of being a Darkfriend anyone could claim that it why they killed her with the one power.

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In the books at least, the oaths are not just something somebody says, and it's totally a matter of honor whether or not one keeps the oath. In the books it is clear the Aes Sedai take the  oaths on an angreal  and that the oaths are binding on the bodies of the women who take them. They literally cannot say a word that is not true. They literally cannot fashion a weapon by which one man (or presumably any other person can kill another. They literally cannot use the One Power as  a weapon, except in the specific instances listed in the oath. So if the One Power were to work the same way as in the books, Elaida murdering Siuan with the One Power would mean that Elaida is a Darkfriend, something she very much is not in the books. Note that in the books, anyone condemned to death by the Aes Saedai is beheaded with an axe.

 

As for killing Siuan off, they did it to avoid using series time on the Siuan/Gareth subplot. It's not that the acing in such a subplot would be beneath a good actor's talents. Good actors have been nailing such subplots  for hundreds of years.

 

To change the subject just a bit, now that Loial is dead, who's gonna finish his book?

[first when not last]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:38 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

When the Aes Sedai sisters are interrogating the Black Ajah member, pretty sure there were no ter'angreal used, only the Power. If memory serves correctly, at least. 

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One of the main things the sisters did is to guide the conversation so that the person being interrogated would have to say something untrue to answer a question. At that point, a legit sister couldn't do it because she was bound by the oaths, but a darkfriend sister could say it and so was exposed.

[first when not last]

  On 4/22/2025 at 4:40 PM, Sabio said:

Her not doing anything when Alviarian killed Siuan fits in character with her. 

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But wouldn't this prove to any non-Darkfriend sister that Alviarin was a Darkfriend?

 

Book Alviarin would never have been so indiscreet.

[Ralph]

  On 4/23/2025 at 1:37 AM, first when not last said:

But wouldn't this prove to any non-Darkfriend sister that Alviarin was a Darkfriend?

 

Book Alviarin would never have been so indiscreet.

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Not at all

 

Everyone but Elaida could easily have believed that Siuan was a Dark friend. She had been accused and sentenced 

[Mailman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 5:51 AM, Ralph said:

 

Not at all

 

Everyone but Elaida could easily have believed that Siuan was a Dark friend. She had been accused and sentenced 

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I am unsure some have said she was only accused others seem to believe she had been convicted

[DigificWriter]

 

  On 4/23/2025 at 6:09 AM, Mailman said:

I am unsure some have said she was only accused others seem to believe she had been convicted

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Siuan was accused and convicted, but with only the most base air of legitimacy... hence my statements from earlier about how none of Elaida's actions in ascending to the Seat actually hold up under scrutiny and about why it's not inconceivable that every person who was complicit in Siuan's deposing and bore witness to/was present for her execution is a Darkfriend.

Edited April 23 by DigificWriter

[DaddyFinn]

  On 4/23/2025 at 6:29 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

Siuan was accused and convicted, but with only the most base air of legitimacy... hence my statements from earlier about how none of Elaida's actions in ascending to the Seat actually hold up under scrutiny and about why it's not inconceivable that every person who was complicit in Siuan's deposing and bore witness to/was present for her execution is a Darkfriend.

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In the books as far as I recall..

 

  Reveal hidden contents

After Egwene was captured she found out that Elaida was raised by the minimum amount of Sitters and several of the sitters were darkfriends and therefore their votes wouldn't count. Elaida had no right to be the Amyrlin.

Seems like the show has already planted the seeds for that.

Edited April 23 by DaddyFinn

[Ralph]

  On 4/23/2025 at 6:29 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

Siuan was accused and convicted, but with only the most base air of legitimacy... hence my statements from earlier about how none of Elaida's actions in ascending to the Seat actually hold up under scrutiny and about why it's not inconceivable that every person who was complicit in Siuan's deposing and bore witness to/was present for her execution is a Darkfriend.

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I really do not agree with this

 

She was accused and convicted and sentenced yes, but Elaida did not say "you are a Darkfriend," thus did not break any Oath even if she knew the accusation was false. 

 

Anyone else may well have believed that trying to support the Dragon is clear evidence of being a DF, as Liandrin stated

 

And Alviarin carrying out the sentence doesn't prove she is a DF as long as she believed Siuan is

Edited April 23 by Ralph

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/23/2025 at 6:58 AM, DaddyFinn said:

In the books as far as I recall..

 

  Reveal hidden contents

After Egwene was captured she found out that Elaida was raised by the minimum amount of Sitters and several of the sitters were darkfriends and therefore their votes wouldn't count. Elaida had no right to be the Amyrlin.

Seems like the show has already planted the seeds for that.

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I want to clarify that when I talked about every person who was complicit in Siuan's deposing and death being a Darkfriend, I was including Elaida.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/23/2025 at 1:31 AM, first when not last said:

One of the main things the sisters did is to guide the conversation so that the person being interrogated would have to say something untrue to answer a question. At that point, a legit sister couldn't do it because she was bound by the oaths, but a darkfriend sister could say it and so was exposed.

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No I meant the sisters Vandene and Adeleas, specifcally - I'm rubbish with names so I had to look them up. From The Path of Daggers,

  Quote

Sisters who would hold White Tower law as part of themselves. That law forbade not only shedding blood, but breaking bones and a number of other things that any Whitecloak Questioner would be more than ready to do. Before any session began, Healing had to be given, and if the questioning started after sunrise, it had to end before sundown; if after sunset, then before sunrise. The law was even more restrictive when it came to initiates of the Tower, the sisters and Accepted and novices, banning the use of saidar in questioning, punishment, or penance. Oh, a sister might flick a novice’s ear with the Power if she was exasperated, or even give her a swat on the bottom, but not very much more.

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Here we can see that it is the laws of the Tower that are specific in deciding what constitutes a weapon or the limitations of use of the Power. This text also makes it difficult to see how Elaida could use the Power to punish Egwene, at least without breaking the law. But it is clear that Sisters can put people to the Question, with Power-fueled violence that is far more limited by in its scope by Tower law than the Three Oaths. It seems fairly clear to me that questioning and punishing, in the terms of the Aes Sedai, don't constitute weapons. It is entirely consistent that a legal execution would also not come under this category. "Use as a weapon" is a phrase that is nearly meaningless without context.

 

It is like the Roman concept of violence. Caesar's last words were reportedly "What is this? Violence against Caesar?" (not "Et tu, Brutus?"). Caesar was indignant as though Roman society was to our language inherently violent - to the Romans, such things as gladiatorial games, warfare, executions, etc., were not violence, they were morally and socially sanctioned actions. Illegally stabbing someone in Rome (where all weapons were banned, except for the Praetorians) was a shocking and, moreover, rude act Caesar considered himself above.

[Sabio]

It really comes down to any sister who believed Siuan was a DF would've been free to use the power to kill her.

[Sabio]

  On 4/22/2025 at 11:04 PM, Mailman said:

Is that book or show about Eladia being specifically involved in Owens gentling as I don't remember her being specifically linked to it in either.

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In the WOT Companion it says Elaida personally took part in Owen because Thom had too much influence with the queen,

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

This is one of the things that bugs me about the Three Oaths - Jordan seems constantly confused about what they actually were. This means that for example if you go to Fandom, it repeatedly claims that there is a clause including the exemption of Darkfriends. This isn't true. Here is a direct quote of the Oaths that Moiraine swears,

 

  Quote

Moiraine closed her hands around the Rod. It felt like glass, only somehow smoother. “Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will speak no word that is not true.” The Oath settled on her, and suddenly the air seemed to press harder against her skin. Red is white, she thought. Up is down. She could still think a lie, but her tongue would not work to utter it now. “Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will make no weapon for one man to kill another.” The pressure grew abruptly; it felt as though she had been sewn into an invisible garment, much too tight, that molded her from the crown of her head to the soles of her feet. To her chagrin, sweat popped out on her forehead, yet she managed to keep her face calm. “Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister.” That garment shrank to still greater snugness, and she breathed heavily through her nose, clamping her jaws to keep it from becoming a gasp. Invisible and utterly flexible, yet oh, so tight! This feeling that her flesh was being compressed would fade, but not entirely for a whole year. Light! She wondered how Elaida had enjoyed taking that last oath, with its mention of Warders. The Three Oaths remained unchanged whatever Ajah you intended to join. Thinking of that helped, a little. 

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The show - according to Fandom at least - does not even include this exemption, and they are forbidden from using it as a weapon, except in defense. Which would explain why the Black Ajah was so much better at fighting, at least initially (I don't think a close inspection of the fight scenes probably would support this argument though).

 

The thing is that as early as The Great Hunt, Sheriam is explaining that it does include Shadowspawn and Darkfriends, but only in paraphrasing, not direct quotes. Now I get Sheriam is Black Ajah, but it seems beyond credulity that she would go about lying about factual things like this novices when she so easily could be caught out. It seems to be inherent that Shadowspawn can be interpreted as "and Darkfriends" showing how plastic the Oaths are and how little can really be gained from arguing about their wording.  

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 1:26 AM, first when not last said:

So if the One Power were to work the same way as in the books, Elaida murdering Siuan with the One Power would mean that Elaida is a Darkfriend,

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Only Elaida doesn’t murder Siuan, Alviarin does. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/23/2025 at 7:45 AM, DigificWriter said:

I want to clarify that when I talked about every person who was complicit in Siuan's deposing and death being a Darkfriend, I was including Elaida.

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If they make Elaida a Darkfriend / Black Ajah, that is an incredibly huge mistake. The entire point of her character is that she is NOT a Darkfriend.

 

She is someone who believes she is right and doing things for the greater good. Yet, like other characters in WoT like her who think they are doing good but are actually doing evil, She ends up helping the Dark One more then she's hindering it.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 7:45 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

I want to clarify that when I talked about every person who was complicit in Siuan's deposing and death being a Darkfriend, I was including Elaida.

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You’re going to have to walk me through your logic here. Elaida is just power hungry and manipulative. Nothing she did shows her as a darkfriend.