spoilers S3E1 - Discussion / Global Fan Event

[Windigo]

The Hall battle did have problems, but I think after re-watching a few times that there are rational reasons for some (though not all) of it. 
Sitters are not necessarily the strongest in power, but politically. 
Other than Reds, Greens and maybe some of the Blues most would not have trained with offensive weaves against other channelers. 
Even those that hunt male channelers are used to a single channeler, and rely more on overpowering to capture, shield and or still. 
That moment of sitting while the other BA got up is understandable with book canon. How many times did an Aes Sedai make comments about whether they felt threatened, or their life was in danger before they could act? 
Only Leane, Siuan and Allana knew and believed that Liandrin was BA, anyone else would need to know that fact or feel threatened, even to protect Siuan, they would have to know that she was in danger
Then we also do not know how many other Sitters could be BA and decided to sit out Liandrin's mess, but not fight against them? 








 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/13/2025 at 5:34 PM, DaddyFinn said:

One criticism I have if I wanted to make any, is how Maksim and Ihvon failed to kill Liandrin. They could have chopped her head off immediately instead of stabbing. I know she "can't" die yet so it's not a big deal though. The episode was very good overall.

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So for arguments sake... lets say you were going up against a channeler who isn't actively being shielded. How do you actually do anything to them?

 

If they went for the killing blow (decapitation) first, it's likely that she might have been able to stop there blades like what happened when the other Aes Sedai stopped them when they went in for the kill.

 

When they dove in to slash her ankles, that created an opening for them to stab. Perhaps she lost concentration/her hold on the source. They can't see that, men can't. But they can probably make the assumption that she's going to try to block a blow to her head more than her back, and I'm going to assume from how they rolled, a stab like that is faster then a decapitating slash. Now that Stab through both Lungs and what should have been the heart or damn near close to it, should have been more then enough for her to drop her hold on the OP, which is what gave them the go ahead to go for the decap. But they were too slow for plot reasons obviously.

 

Now, could they have done a Stab and a Decap move timed seconds after the other? Absolutely. But then we wouldn't have the Tanchico plot.

 

  On 3/14/2025 at 1:51 PM, DigificWriter said:

Now, moving on to other things, I like that Rafe and Co. are committing to turning the "rainbows, carnivals, and 3 beautiful women" story for Rand into a mutual Polycule instead of a stereotypical Harem situation, and that they chose to convey that commitment by using a one-night-stand between Elly (Elayne) and Avi as the catalyst for relationship development between them individually before we get to relationship development between them and Rand.

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if we see similar relationship development happen between Elayne and Min before we get relationship development between Rand and Min.

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Yeah, I have absolutely no issues with this plot line. (Big surprise?!) 

There was already the plotline in the book where Rand and what.. Elayne had some Fun upstairs, and Avi and Birgitte were downstairs getting hammered because they could "feel" everything? or something like that.

Adding this one night stand? It makes the Elayne/Avi first wives thing make more sense in a... why did they become friends so fast sort of way?

Edited Friday at 03:40 PM by SinisterDeath
Fixed some Typos/Sentence Structure

[Mirefox]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:20 PM, Windigo said:

The Hall battle did have problems, but I think after re-watching a few times that there are rational reasons for some (though not all) of it. 
Sitters are not necessarily the strongest in power, but politically. 
Other than Reds, Greens and maybe some of the Blues most would not have trained with offensive weaves against other channelers. 
Even those that hunt male channelers are used to a single channeler, and rely more on overpowering to capture, shield and or still. 
That moment of sitting while the other BA got up is understandable with book canon. How many times did an Aes Sedai make comments about whether they felt threatened, or their life was in danger before they could act? 
Only Leane, Siuan and Allana knew and believed that Liandrin was BA, anyone else would need to know that fact or feel threatened, even to protect Siuan, they would have to know that she was in danger
Then we also do not know how many other Sitters could be BA and decided to sit out Liandrin's mess, but not fight against them? 








 

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I’m guessing the ones that got cut in half weren’t black 😜

 

I agree that there may be some logical reasons, and you can also bring up the ideas of shock or indecision, but it just looked too choreographed and silly to have them look so clueless.  At the very least, the realization that Liandrin was black should have had the blues and greens on their feet and ready to go rather than looking cowed and confused.

Edited Friday at 03:29 PM by Mirefox

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:28 PM, Mirefox said:

At the very least, the realization that Liandrin was black should have had the blues and greens on their feet and ready to go rather than looking cowed and confused.

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Really? For me, the idea that a person I’ve known for decades was a secret homicidal devil worshipper would take me a few moments to process. 

[Skipp]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:34 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Really? For me, the idea that a person I’ve known for decades was a secret homicidal devil worshipper would take me a few moments to process. 

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Especially considering how deeply the Aes Sedai believe the Black Ajah doesn't exist, just Whitecloak propaganda.  The reaction of the one Yellow sitter when Suian actually accuses Liandrin of being a Dark Friend should be enough to explain that.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:34 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Really? For me, the idea that a person I’ve known for decades was a secret homicidal devil worshipper would take me a few moments to process. 

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  On 3/14/2025 at 3:39 PM, Skipp said:

Especially considering how deeply the Aes Sedai believe the Black Ajah doesn't exist, just Whitecloak propaganda.  The reaction of the one Yellow sitter when Suian actually accuses Liandrin of being a Dark Friend should be enough to explain that.

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Fight. Flight. Freeze. Fawn. Flop

Those are the five main reactions to "trauma". 

Look in that room during that battle and you'll see an example of each of those... and in some cases you'll see some people doing multiple reactions.. Freeze -> Flee, or Flee -> Fight, or in the case of the lady that got cut in half, Freeze -> Flop.

[Windigo]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:39 PM, Skipp said:

Especially considering how deeply the Aes Sedai believe the Black Ajah doesn't exist, just Whitecloak propaganda.  The reaction of the one Yellow sitter when Suian actually accuses Liandrin of being a Dark Friend should be enough to explain that.

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It is all such great foreshadowing to what is to come, they are unprepared. They were able to show in 15 minutes of show how though many are strong individually, the tower which is supposed to be a line of protection against the shadow, has done nothing in 1000 years to build anything capable of stepping up to the task.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:45 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

Fight. Flight. Freeze. Fawn. Flop

Those are the five main reactions to "trauma". 

Look in that room during that battle and you'll see an example of each of those... and in some cases you'll see some people doing multiple reactions.. Freeze -> Flee, or Flee -> Fight, or in the case of the lady that got cut in half, Freeze -> Flop.

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Yes, yes, once it all hit the fan reactions were as expected, and it even made sense that that lady that got cut in half was seemingly a non-battle ajah (I remember her as grey, but don’t remember now).  My whole point, and it was just in a discussion about some of the battle stuff, was that I didn’t like the obvious style-over-substance betrayal bit where a good handful of seconds passed while the black revealed themselves and every single other sitter sat there as if oblivious.  Then the fight starts and reactions are understandable.

[wotfan4472]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:51 PM, Windigo said:

It is all such great foreshadowing to what is to come, they are unprepared. They were able to show in 15 minutes of show how though many are strong individually, the tower which is supposed to be a line of protection against the shadow, has done nothing in 1000 years to build anything capable of stepping up to the task.

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I love that as well. It makes a great way of showing how the Dragon Reborn affects things, as the Shadow starts acting to weaken its biggest foe's chances later on.

Edited Friday at 04:12 PM by wotfan4472

[Mirefox]

  On 3/10/2025 at 6:49 AM, Mailman said:

@A Memory Of Why At least it was better than the boba fett spinning guy.

 

 

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You’re not supposed to do that?  No wonder I get kicked out of so many firing ranges…

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:45 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

Fight. Flight. Freeze. Fawn. Flop

Those are the five main reactions to "trauma". 

Look in that room during that battle and you'll see an example of each of those... and in some cases you'll see some people doing multiple reactions.. Freeze -> Flee, or Flee -> Fight, or in the case of the lady that got cut in half, Freeze -> Flop.

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Look you can say that but these are women that have been trained and tested in the 3 arches further trialled by the 100 weaves to remain in control and be able to channel in the most stressful situations imaginable with decades and centuries of experience for them to be taken apart when they have at least a 3 to 1 advantage is just not going to happen.

 

And for all of them to fall prey to this and especially the other 2 greens in the room is just wrong.

 

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:21 PM, SinisterDeath said:

So for arguments sake... lets say you were going up against a channeler who isn't actively being shielded. How do you actually do anything to them?

 

If they went for the killing blow (decapitation) first, it's likely that she might have been able to stop there blades like what happened when the other Aes Sedai stopped them when they went in for the kill.

 

When they dove in to slash her ankles, that created an opening for them to stab. Perhaps she lost concentration/her hold on the source. They can't see that, men can't. But they can probably make the assumption that she's going to try to block a blow to her head more than her back, and I'm going to assume from how they rolled, a stab like that is faster then a decapitating slash. Now that Stab through both Lungs and what should have been the heart or damn near close to it, should have been more then enough for her to drop her hold on the OP, which is what gave them the go ahead to go for the decap. But they were too slow for plot reasons obviously.

 

Now, could they have done a Stab and a Decap move timed seconds after the other? Absolutely. But then we wouldn't have the Tanchico plot.

 

Yeah, I have absolutely no issues with this plot line. (Big surprise?!) 

There was already the plotline in the book where Rand and what.. Elayne had some Fun upstairs, and Avi and Birgitte were downstairs getting hammered because they could "feel" everything? or something like that.

Adding this one night stand? It makes the Elayne/Avi first wives thing make more sense in a... why did they become friends so fast sort of way?

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The problem with this is the warders would be very aware of what healing is capable of so not delivering a killing blow leaves you wide open to her being back on her feet in as is the case literally 30 seconds later and fully reengaged in the fight. It would have been incredibly easy to fix, simply have Liandrin throw herself to a side so the stabs missed the mark, but for two of the most highly trained killers and fighters in the world to not deliver a killing blow to a helpless unmoving target with her back turned is terrible writing.

 

Now, could they have done a Stab and a Decap move timed seconds after the other? Absolutely. But then we wouldn't have the Tanchico plot.

 

When you tie the competence of your character to what the story wants rather than that characters actual competence you are engaged in bad writing. If you suddenly have to make your character do something they are not capable of or not do something they can do to get them out of a situation you have put them in go back and fix it.

 

Elayne and Avi actually go through the first sister ceremony. In the books they are all sisters rather than sexual partners. I have no issue in changing this although does this mean the show is going to give us an orgy scene? When you go with the harem model this is not an issue as not everyone is sleeping together.  

Edited Friday at 10:02 PM by Mailman

[Mailman]

@DigificWriter It would be really helpful if you could use the quote function to respond when answering specific posts.

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:34 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Really? For me, the idea that a person I’ve known for decades was a secret homicidal devil worshipper would take me a few moments to process. 

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But if you have been trained and tested and have centuries of experience and you have not just the ability to strike at them which might be difficult but the ability to construct a large defensive shield just how long should you watch your friends and people you have known for decades die before you help.

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 1:51 PM, DigificWriter said:

There's also zero equivalency between the people who talk about the show positively and the people who don't like it but are watching solely for the purpose of complaining about it and about the people whose opinions are not the same as theirs.

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Oh please, now who is not being objective. This is purely your opinion and is entirely premised upon your belief that you are right. We are consuming the same media for whatever reason be it like or dislike and this is a place to discuss it.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/14/2025 at 9:46 PM, Mailman said:

But if you have been trained and tested and have centuries of experience and you have not just the ability to strike at them which might be difficult but the ability to construct a large defensive shield just how long should you watch your friends and people you have known for decades die before you help.

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But they were trained decades or centuries ago and have done what since then. Sit in offices and chitchat. Most don't even leave the tower. I've never heard of ongoing training for anyone. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:18 PM, Turin Turambar said:

But they were trained decades or centuries ago and have done what since then. Sit in offices and chitchat. Most don't even leave the tower. I've never heard of ongoing training for anyone. 

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Well i sure hope the show does not show us them being competent in other situations then.

 

Ryma seemed to have some abilities when fighting the Seachan? Killing 2 of them despite being outnumbered.

 

Valda had 6 rings on his belt I'm assuming he did not go into TV to get them so quite a few must leave for him to have captured 6 and no i don't think he should have been able to take 6 Aes Sedai it's just what the show gave us.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 9:46 PM, Mailman said:

But if you have been trained and tested and have centuries of experience and you have not just the ability to strike at them which might be difficult but the ability to construct a large defensive shield just how long should you watch your friends and people you have known for decades die before you help.

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A few seconds. Which is basically how long they waited in the show. 

[Turin Turambar]

Those 6 were caught and killed by people with swords. Not exactly the ringing endorsement for their abilities in self defence. 

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:28 PM, Mailman said:

Well i sure hope the show does not show us them being competent in other situations then.

 

Ryma seemed to have some abilities when fighting the Seachan? Killing 2 of them despite being outnumbered.

 

Valda had 6 rings on his belt I'm assuming he did not go into TV to get them so quite a few must leave for him to have captured 6 and no i don't think he should have been able to take 6 Aes Sedai it's just what the show gave us.

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I was very happy to see Ryma alive in this season. Albeit with a haircut.

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 1:51 PM, DigificWriter said:

There's no such thing as "objectively bad" because the terms "good" and "bad" are not objective.

 

 

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This is also not true. Once you are engaging in a certain field that field has structures and things can be objectively good and bad within that field.

Pele is an objectively good soccer player just as there are loads of community park players who are not good.

Are you telling me that it would not be objectively bad storytelling if in the Hall fight Liandrin whipped out a uzi and mowed down 3 sisters before Siuan used a lightsaber to kill her and then optus prime killed the dark one.

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:50 PM, Mailman said:

Pele is an objectively good soccer player just as there are loads of community park players who are not good.

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Poor example. There are statistics and measurable metrics by which soccer players can be rated and compared. 
 

No such metrics exist for art. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:48 PM, Turin Turambar said:

Those 6 were caught and killed by people with swords. Not exactly the ringing endorsement for their abilities in self defence. 

I was very happy to see Ryma alive in this season. Albeit with a haircut.

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you did notice where i said that i thought it terrible that he had actually managed to capture that many.

My point was if the Aes Sedai are not actually going out of the tower how could he have captured so many of them. Surely he is not getting even a small % of those leaving.

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:52 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Poor example. There are statistics and measurable metrics by which soccer players can be rated and compared. 
 

No such metrics exist for art. 

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Digi said there is no such thing as objectively good or bad.

So you cannot say objectively that my Hall scenario is bad as storytelling?

Edited Friday at 10:57 PM by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:54 PM, Mailman said:

So you cannot say objectively that my Hall scenario is bad as storytelling?

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It depends on the story you’re trying to tell. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/14/2025 at 11:00 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It depends on the story you’re trying to tell. 

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I'm telling the WoT but Liandrin uzi's 3 sisters Siuan uses a lightsaber to kill her and then optumus prime kills the dark one.

 

Are you seriously telling me that you cannot tell me objectively that is bad storytelling.

Of course you can storytelling has established metrics that you can use just like sports.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:50 PM, Mailman said:

This is also not true. Once you are engaging in a certain field that field has structures and things can be objectively good and bad within that field.

Pele is an objectively good soccer player just as there are loads of community park players who are not good.

Are you telling me that it would not be objectively bad storytelling if in the Hall fight Liandrin whipped out a uzi and mowed down 3 sisters before Siuan used a lightsaber to kill her and then optus prime killed the dark one.

 

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You must have hated Ready Player One.