spoilers S3E1 - Discussion / Global Fan Event

[Mailman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 3:19 AM, SinisterDeath said:

In the Dragon Reborn, that entire sequence is like one giant fever dream of events with Rand chasing Ishamael through waygates without knowing what he was doing, or where / how he was doing it. 

It was never really explained where or how he was going to the places he was going, and Dreamshards are very much related to TAR. They're effectively pocket dimensions.

 

Here's a "quote" pulled from the wot wikia talking about some of the things Moridin (aka ishy) does with them.

 

So why jump to random places in TAR and create these effects, when he has access to all these Dreamshards that he can just... Jump into?

 

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Either could be true and I am more than happy with either one, I don't have a copy of that book with me but I simply thought all the action was chasing through the halls of the stone so I just assumed it was the world of dreams especially as we did not learn of shards till later.

[Mailman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 3:21 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Literally a few hours ago you were praising me for not being an apologist. 

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I don't think I ever praised you for not being an apologist. 

 

Ok so we have a baseline for where we are coming from in terms of our enjoyment as I find it hard to immerse myself in the story when these issues constantly break it up.

 

Given that will you admit that the things I mentioned are in fact legitimate issues even if they do not stop you from enjoying the show.

 

I think this is probably what you are referring to. I really do not see how this is praising you for not being an apologist. And you will note that your very next post to me was a defence of the show.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 3:47 AM, Mailman said:

Given that will you admit that the things I mentioned are in fact legitimate issues even if they do not stop you from enjoying the show.

 

I think this is probably what you are referring to. I really do not see how this is praising you for not being an apologist. And you will note that your very next post to me was a defence of the show.

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You admit that I will honestly point out legitimate criticisms. I am very upfront about my dislike of some of the writing and many of the creative choices. 
 

Also defending the show is different from being an apologist. But you know that. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 3:51 AM, Elder_Haman said:

You admit that I will honestly point out legitimate criticisms. I am very upfront about my dislike of some of the writing and many of the creative choices. 
 

Also defending the show is different from being an apologist. But you know that. 

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You would not accept any of the things I listed as being a problem the only thing I have seen you criticize about the scene at all was the flip which was frankly embarrassing.

 

I also think you may have misread my post I did not say you honestly point out legitimate criticism. I said given our different paths to enjoying the show would you accept that the things I pointed out were legitimate issues even though they did not affect your enjoyment of the show.

 

The level of your defence is very high but that comment in fairness was in response to you dismissing my criticism as purely nitpicking.

I will withdraw my comment that you are an apologist.

The same as I am sure you will admit that I was not in fact praising you for not being an apologist and that all my criticism do not in fact boil down to just nitpicking.

Edited March 10 by Mailman

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 3/10/2025 at 12:28 AM, SinisterDeath said:

/ Dreamshards?

 

E.g. remember when Rand was facing off against Ishamael inside the Stone of Tear? All those weird other worldy things he kept throwing at Rand? Ishamael was jumping in and out of Dreamshards in an attempt to Kill Rand.

 

"The Axe", "the Mirror", and "the Playing cards", are "Bubbles of Evil" in the book, similar with Nynaeve encountering a Gray Man (minus the stabbing part). These are all definitely nods towards the books. 

 

So we may not get random Bubbles of Evil through out the series, but a more targeted version in the form of Dreamshards. 

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Oh yeah the scene was awesome 😃

 

Later i was trying to wrap my head around how it worked, especially Rands bubble, and I considered TAR but I don't think that's the case..

 

Moraine and Lan were in another room listening to the drama, and it sounded like more than just Nyn. Also what about the damage, like Rands mirrors and Perrins axe. If it was just TAR or a dreamshard it would all be good when they "woke" up.

 

I'm betting on true power shannanigans, we know it can do unnatural things the one power isn't capable of.

[A Memory Of Why]

Yeah the Alanna fight was something..

 

I want to like it but that flip kinda brought me out, what is it with unnecessary flips these days? Like yeah, I guess she's kept up with her cardio with her warders but.. when she could have just battered it away which would have been just as cool..

 

Phaw! Phaw I say!

 

I'm surprised her weaves didn't reach them, maybe @Mailman is onto something and they blocked it?

 

If not, than phaw! If so, it's great she also used it as a distraction / smokescreen to get in close. Either way I don't mind that the warders survived as they did, but I don't like how they maimed instead of killed.

 

Warders are trained to kill and protect their Aes Sedai, it's what I loved with Lan at winternight. He didn't fight the trollocs, he killed them, contrasting Tam who fought a trollock and was overcome.

 

Maybe the theories are right and Maksim is a darkfriend, or they wanted to keep a couple alive for questioning, but..! Everyone knows you take out the healer first, noobs.!

 

On a plus side i quite enjoyed Suians lil fight, didn't like how she seemed to physically tear down the shield (Logains was better) but it was a good scene.

 

P.s. this may be my inner RJ but I did giggle that Alanna's fight happened near south harbour. It can be a bit of a battle down there, it's lower than you'd think 🧐

[Mailman]

@A Memory Of Why At least it was better than the boba fett spinning guy.

 

 

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/9/2025 at 11:57 PM, Mailman said:

Just last week people were arguing the exact opposite argument in favour of why the blacks beat the Hall.

 

It's not a question of speed both sides clearly saw each other before attacking and we saw clear evidence of blacks insta casting shields in the Hall. And the blacks are in a rush to escape before they are overwhelmed by loyal Aes Sedai so why would they possibly hesitate, and how on earth would you not think a member of the battle ajah was no danger to you.

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IIRC before the wonder girls, it was rare for any Aes Sedai to be able to weave more then 1 thing at a time. So in the street fight they were faced with 3 opponents,  only one of which had a ranged attack (Alanna). Their choice was defend or attack. Like if you were in combat vs. One gunman and two melee only fighters. Do you shield against the gun and alow the others to close to melee range, or do you attack and try to take them out before they can close distance? Either is reasonable. You say the shield would block all attacks, would it? I'm not sure. What if Alanna is able to break just your shield and now you have a sword coming at you?

  Reveal hidden contents

I could be wrong, but I think in the show Alanna is portrayed as ine of the strongest AS, just a level below Suian and Moiraine. 

How strong are these particular sisters? We don't know. Sitters aren't chosen based on strength in the power.

 

As for the warders not going for a killing blow, Liandrin should have been dead. At least one of those swords went through her heart. She isn't a zombie that needs decapitation to die. I've already said my peace about the healing buff occurring so not gonna rehash.

 

Tha flip and rush dodge thing. I chalk it up to "rule of cool". There are some ways that it could work but it would involve multiple skills used at the same time and we haven't seen that from any AS yet.

[Mailman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 8:44 AM, Turin Turambar said:

IIRC before the wonder girls, it was rare for any Aes Sedai to be able to weave more then 1 thing at a time. So in the street fight they were faced with 3 opponents,  only one of which had a ranged attack (Alanna). Their choice was defend or attack. Like if you were in combat vs. One gunman and two melee only fighters. Do you shield against the gun and alow the others to close to melee range, or do you attack and try to take them out before they can close distance? Either is reasonable. You say the shield would block all attacks, would it? I'm not sure. What if Alanna is able to break just your shield and now you have a sword coming at you?

  Reveal hidden contents

I could be wrong, but I think in the show Alanna is portrayed as ine of the strongest AS, just a level below Suian and Moiraine. 

How strong are these particular sisters? We don't know. Sitters aren't chosen based on strength in the power.

 

As for the warders not going for a killing blow, Liandrin should have been dead. At least one of those swords went through her heart. She isn't a zombie that needs decapitation to die. I've already said my peace about the healing buff occurring so not gonna rehash.

 

Tha flip and rush dodge thing. I chalk it up to "rule of cool". There are some ways that it could work but it would involve multiple skills used at the same time and we haven't seen that from any AS yet.

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But you have 6 black sisters all ranged that can either defend or attack. If they all attack then I could see Alanna getting lucky and killing a couple. But if as you said its very hard to use multiple weaves there is no way for her to deal with all the attacks while attacking herself at the same time, the same goes if they all defend maybe she gets lucky and breaks one of the shields but the warders are useless.

 

We saw 2 Aes Sedai and a ton of warders in the hallway outside the Hall vs 2 blacks and they achieved nothing.

 

While sitters are not 100% chosen because of their strength in the power in the books there simply would be no path to be in contention without being well above average. Remember your standing depended on strength in the power how long you were novice and accepted and if you were not high in those categories you were sent for tea and largely ignored by those higher than you.

 

Liandrin I think was considered pretty strong in the power.

Edited Monday at 09:23 AM by Mailman

[notpropaganda73]

So I enjoyed the episode for the most part. I didn't like it as much as some of the reactions I'm seeing - but I am really glad that so many have enjoyed it and that there seems to be such a buzz about it after one showing via the fan event! I think part of my issues with this opener really stem from the first 2 seasons and not having done enough work on certain characters, so some things feel a little rushed to me here. I am still worried in general for how the season will feel, will it be as jam packed as this? They have so much that they want to get through. I am just a bit apprehensive for how it will all land.

 

But on the episode itself, first the things I loved:

 

- Rand reading prophecies, with Loial! I wish we had one more scene like this before now. 

- Rand and the Maidens, Rand and the Aiel, deciding to go to the Waste etc., Rhuidean mention and Maiden handtalk!

- More Rand in general! I'm starting to see Rand as a character in this episode, finally!

- Egwene's trauma from the a'dam manifesting as it does in the show - I think this is a really interesting change and dynamic for her relationship with Rand that they have set up within the show. I don't like the love/relationship angle for Rand and Egwene generally but for the choice they have made for the show, I think this is a really interesting layer to that

-  The bubbles of evil! I actually loved that Lanfear was manipulating that, and her reaction to the Grey Man. There are a couple of elements to it that I liked, maybe some other book readers can verify but I am nearly sure there was a time in the books where Lanfear didn't know about another Forsaken meddling? Her reaction to realising that Moggy was involved felt like a callback to the books for me, if not specifically to Moggy meddling, then someone - that she was blindsided by it a little. 

- I also quite like that Moiraine and Lanfear "worked together". It felt very scheming to me, I don't know, maybe it's anathema for book-Moiraine but something about it worked on the show. Maybe it's because you have such brilliant actors in Rosamund Pike and Natasha O'Keefe in scene together that made me love it!

- Rand and the mirrors was so good, kudos to the creators here, just loved everything about that scene.

- I actually really like that Moghedien creates the Grey Man. I always felt it was an underutilised Shadowspawn, and I think because of the nature of it, it would almost be too easy in the books for the Dark One to just send loads of Grey Men to try and achieve their goals. At least with this limitation that only one of the Forsaken can create them, it makes a little more sense that it's a limited weapon. It also just adds to her as a character for the show, creep central!

- Elayne is absolutely perfectly cast. I can't wait to see more of her as the season progresses. 

- Mat with the cards was a nice touch, I liked it and I like his motivation for staying in TV - loyalty to Nynaeve. Feels very like Book Mat to me. 

- In fact,  I think there were a lot of small nods to the books in this episode which were really nicely done

- Finally, I really like that there isn't a huge amount of discord between the EF5 at this point. I like that Perrin is going home and Rand knew before he said, and encourages him to do so. I like that they are still all friends here, that nobody is outright afraid of Rand as things stand. It feels more true to a lifelong friendship to me. 

 

Now, what I disliked...

 

- I do think the show has a little bit of a problem with Healing. Yes, it's a fantasy show, yes there is magic and monsters and otherworldly feats etc. But I just do not believe the show when someone is stabbed through the chest with two swords, and gets up within a minute to fight some more. I do not believe the show when someone is hit with an axe to the gut, and stands up and keeps struggling along. I do not believe the show when a Shadow-made assassin stabs someone without any armour multiple times in the gut and chest, and they are up and alive in the next scene seemingly fine. It completely breaks any immersion for me, honestly. My partner is not a book reader and literally laughed when Liandrin was stabbed by the warders. And if we are to believe these moments and take them as they are, that Healing really can save people in this way - why should we care when anyone gets stabbed, ever? So long as there is someone capable of Healing nearby, no problem, let the Grey Man stab Rand in the heart 100 times!

- I don't really like how they were all walking around Tar Valon, and as someone mentioned that Aiel are walking around in full Aiel dress etc. I know that the book norms have not been established with Tar Valon in the same way, but it felt wrong to me. The whole fear of the Aiel in the Wetlands from the books doesn't seem to hold true here.

- Egwene's Accepted test... I wanted more and I hope to see more as the season progresses. Whether that is in her Dreamwalking or flashbacks, but it felt too fast for me. This sort of goes back to the start of my post, that rushed feeling. To me, Egwene's Accepted test deserves as much time as Nynaeve's got in S2. For the themes of the show and where she is going as a character, in fact perhaps she deserved more time than Nynaeve's. If that is all we get of it, I will be disappointed.

- The action in general didn't really work for me in that cold open. I appreciate that many really enjoyed it but there's something about some of the slow-mo shots that I don't find engaging. But as a counter point, my partner was blown away by the amount of Black Ajah. She is constantly surprised when a Darkfriend reveal happens, it's great!

 

I hope that doesn't come across as too whiny or critical, I did enjoy the episode and am excited for the next two to drop! I am definitely forgetting things from the episode too.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 4:00 AM, Mailman said:

You would not accept any of the things I listed as being a problem the only thing I have seen you criticize about the scene at all was the flip which was frankly embarrassing.

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Correct. I think many of the things you deem to be “problems” are the types of things that are common to all action/sci-fi/fantasy and, therefore, not problems at all. 

 

  On 3/10/2025 at 4:00 AM, Mailman said:

I am sure you will admit that I was not in fact praising you for not being an apologist and that all my criticism do not in fact boil down to just nitpicking.

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I will not.

[Mailman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 12:54 PM, Elder_Haman said:

 

I will not.

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So you will not even admit to something I never even said? Something you misinterpreted in an earlier post.

And not one single point amounts to anything more than nitpicking. How incredibly dismissive.

I would be interested to know just what level something has to rise to in an action scene to be considered more than nitpicking and something that damages the writing, story and worldbuilding.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/10/2025 at 5:29 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

Oh yeah the scene was awesome 😃

 

Later i was trying to wrap my head around how it worked, especially Rands bubble, and I considered TAR but I don't think that's the case..

 

Moraine and Lan were in another room listening to the drama, and it sounded like more than just Nyn. Also what about the damage, like Rands mirrors and Perrins axe. If it was just TAR or a dreamshard it would all be good when they "woke" up.

 

I'm betting on true power shannanigans, we know it can do unnatural things the one power isn't capable of.

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Aye, that's why I think they're sort of merging the two ideas together. Bubbles + Dreamshards + TAR Nightmares + Waygates. Kind of just merging all of those concepts into one big ball, and making it a bit more targeting rather than random.

 

The one thing I hope they don't do in this show, is forget that the Dark One exists.

Yeah, the Forsaken are here, doing all this stuff, and there here being  all "LOL, I'm evil"... but I hope they just don't forget about this existential threat to existence that's ever present.

 

That they don't make the rotting food, something the Black Ajah / Forsaken does. You know?

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/10/2025 at 1:24 PM, Mailman said:

So you will not even admit to something I never even said? Something you misinterpreted in an earlier post.

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You said what you said. You have since clarified your intent when saying it. I'm not going to apologize for misinterpreting something that was easily misinterpreted. 

 

  On 3/10/2025 at 1:24 PM, Mailman said:

I would be interested to know just what level something has to rise to in an action scene to be considered more than nitpicking and something that damages the writing, story and worldbuilding.

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I've given you examples of things that break actions scenes for me. I didn't like Alanna's flip. I didn't like the slow motion, old West showdown style shot. Moving past that particular scene, I've been critical of the silly battle scenes in both of the finales. Moving the lens back, things like the Dothraki fire sword charge bother me because of the very, very, very obvious futility of it. 

 

And I tend to agree with you that they are playing fast and loose with healing. 

[notpropaganda73]

  On 3/10/2025 at 1:42 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Aye, that's why I think they're sort of merging the two ideas together. Bubbles + Dreamshards + TAR Nightmares + Waygates. Kind of just merging all of those concepts into one big ball, and making it a bit more targeting rather than random.

 

The one thing I hope they don't do in this show, is forget that the Dark One exists.

Yeah, the Forsaken are here, doing all this stuff, and there here being  all "LOL, I'm evil"... but I hope they just don't forget about this existential threat to existence that's ever present.

 

That they don't make the rotting food, something the Black Ajah / Forsaken does. You know?

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Merging those things make sense for television. I was a little worried they would merge Machin Shin and Mashadar as they are sort of similar "entities", and I could see it being a note from the studio that they are repetitive (even though we all know from the lore they are very much not the same). But bubbles of evil/Dreamshards is the sort of merging I can get behind and definitely adds something to the show in that they get a danger across for a TV audience without confusing things too much I think

 

But I agree on the DO, I am hopeful for some indication of the DO's touch on the world in S3 because as enjoyable as the Forsaken have been so far, they are not the big bad! 

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 3/10/2025 at 1:42 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Aye, that's why I think they're sort of merging the two ideas together. Bubbles + Dreamshards + TAR Nightmares + Waygates. Kind of just merging all of those concepts into one big ball, and making it a bit more targeting rather than random.

 

The one thing I hope they don't do in this show, is forget that the Dark One exists.

Yeah, the Forsaken are here, doing all this stuff, and there here being  all "LOL, I'm evil"... but I hope they just don't forget about this existential threat to existence that's ever present.

 

That they don't make the rotting food, something the Black Ajah / Forsaken does. You know?

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Yeah i get it, gunna let that idea bounce around my noggin for a bit.

 

You can't blame me for wanting everything though, the good the bad and the ugly 🥲

 

It is weird they've barely mentioned the DO, i think only Ishy brings him up a couple of times. 

 

Taking away the bubbles from him.. which i guess is really only a side effect. If they remove the bowl plot than does that mean the weather issue too?

 

Agree though, the DO is the real threat and the lack of mentioning him is weird. Shaidar Harran should be showing up soon right? He was the fade that threatened Carradin.

 

Would be cool if we got the trip to Shayol Ghul, say as the final scene this season, introducing us to Sammael and end it on "let the lord of Chaos rule".

[Windigo]

  On 3/10/2025 at 1:42 PM, SinisterDeath said:

The one thing I hope they don't do in this show, is forget that the Dark One exists.

Yeah, the Forsaken are here, doing all this stuff, and there here being  all "LOL, I'm evil"... but I hope they just don't forget about this existential threat to existence that's ever present.

 

That they don't make the rotting food, something the Black Ajah / Forsaken does. You know?

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I am really hoping that they are just holding this off for later, just enough mention of the dark one breaking loose, to foreshadow it can happen later. If they get enough seasons to complete the full story arc, and not have to end on some partial win against just the forsaken. 

[DreadLord31]

Who's going to rewatch episode 1 tomorrow first before going onto the next two episodes? I think I'm going right to episodes 2 & 3. Then I'll find time to rewatch episodes 1 through 3 a second time before episode 4 comes out next week. 

[Skipp]

  On 3/12/2025 at 8:40 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Who's going to rewatch episode 1 tomorrow first before going onto the next two episodes? I think I'm going right to episodes 2 & 3. Then I'll find time to rewatch episodes 1 through 3 a second time before episode 4 comes out next week. 

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I plan on rewatching episode 1 simply because there was so much stuff into it.   I  am sure I missed a bunch of little things.  But I also took the day off work to just bask in the community so I have the time.

[Andy MacLeod]

Definitely rewatch!!

[Skipp]

From the VFX Team

 

 

[Turin Turambar]

Challenge accepted Andy!!!!

 

Actually,  I only got to see the first 15-20 minutes during the fan event because working.  Looking forward to seeing it when I can.

[Irvyne]

Just finished watching Ep1.

On the whole, it feels like a step up from the previous season.

Rand and Mat are finally beginning to feel like themselves, with actual, y'know, personalities.

But why oh why did they have to make Elayne and Aviendha lesbian lovers?

I mean, they've already torpedoed so many book relationships in the previous seasons, but come on.

[Vosha]

  On 3/13/2025 at 11:02 AM, Irvyne said:

Just finished watching Ep1.

On the whole, it feels like a step up from the previous season.

Rand and Mat are finally beginning to feel like themselves, with actual, y'know, personalities.

But why oh why did they have to make Elayne and Aviendha lesbian lovers?

I mean, they've already torpedoed so many book relationships in the previous seasons, but come on.

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Eh, is the Elayne and Avi thing that far-fetched though?

[DaddyFinn]

  On 3/13/2025 at 11:02 AM, Irvyne said:

But why oh why did they have to make Elayne and Aviendha lesbian lovers?

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So that Rand doesn't have a harem. Makes full sense.