What would you change to improve the series?

[driftnet]

I feel like the series really starts to drag in the middle and should probably have been maybe nine or ten books. I'm curious about what others think. This is what I would do:

 

• Remove the Seanchan entirely (everything about them, not just their POVs)
• Remove Valan Luca and the circus stuff
• Remove the Kin and probably the Windfinders
• Remove most of the camping captive stuff (a lot of this is Shaido)
• Trim the Tower novice lessons

 

Getting rid of the Seanchan alone eliminates or trims a bunch of other character POV chapters where they're dealing with the invasion one way or another, on top of the Seanchan POVs themselves. Besides, being in the minds of slavers is just gross.

 

It seems like every woman in the series gets captured at least once and spends time as a prisoner in one camp or another, which is just repetitive and excessive. The discovery of new weaves and re-discovery of lost abilities or talents doesn't require a bunch of new POVs. Neither does the quest to find the Bowl of the Winds. And there's too much switching and dishwashing and so on with characters in the White Tower.

 

There are some pretty annoying Nynaeve POV chapters outside of those bullet points that could go. I also think you could probably get rid of most of the Morgase/Gareth Bryne stuff, and move the rebel Aes Sedai along much more quickly.

 

I can't fail to note that trimming the books might have allowed RJ to complete the series himself. I'm mainly talking about structural stuff here, not mild annoyances like highly improbable knife throwing, but if you have thoughts on that I'd like to hear them, too. So what would you change to improve the series ("Nothing" is a perfectly valid answer)?

[Dedicated]

Make the Aiel black. That is all. 

[Figs and Mice]

Well you could cut out a lot of stuff and still get to the end of the story... But what would be the point  ? It would no longer be the book series Jordan wrote , which has so enthralled all of us that we spend time on here nit picking about every tiny detail  🙂

 

Any long book - or series thereof - is likely to contain some fluff that might be done without : but opinions would differ as to which bits are best removed. I for one am happy to take it as it was written ... minor flaws and all...

[DojoToad]

I'm good with removing the circus.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

25 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I'm good with removing the circus.

For all the amusement of Nyn in her low-cut dress and Elayne in her trousers, yeah, I agree. I still remember my frustration each time Nyn tells them to turn the wagons around (happens once with the circus and once with a wagon, I think) and start to really slowly go back the way they came. While arguing if they are going to eat beans or vegetables. 

 

And to be fair, pretty much the whole Shaido arc, including the Prophet. And the Seanchan Gardeners. And Beslan. And Setalle Anan. And the Kin. And Oliver, the odious little gremlin. And the battle tactics and endless duels at Tar'mon Gaiden. Or perhaps more exactly it would be nice if these arcs didn't just peter out to really unsatisfactory conclusions. But the story would be much less rich without them. And it is largely down to how Jordan wove all these different threads together to make such a magnificent tapestry. Not all story arcs have to be super meaningful, some should be red herrings, some should fall short of their potential. But some things like the Prophet that went on for so long, that picked up so much pace along the way just to be tossed aside as irrelevant, with pretty much no explanation but he was mad, then corrupted (which kind of contradicted his religious zeal in the first place, he kills thousands for not acclaiming the Dragon Reborn and by the time we get to his POV, he is actively sabotaging the Dragon? It felt... contrived to mesh into the dumpster fire that was the Shaido arc) was kind of grating. 

[RextheDog]

theres bits and pieces, but nothing cut out as such, just changed a bit

 

the top of the list is to rewrite Failes character, and adjust Perrins arc....its just gratingly painful to read for me....

 

.... i really enjoyed the circus and Mat and Tuons courtship....

 

 

[Vambram]

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

And to be fair, pretty much the whole Shaido arc, including the Prophet. And the Seanchan Gardeners. And Beslan. And Setalle Anan. And the Kin.

 

Although The Wheel of Time is my personal number 1 favorite series of novels of ALL time, I wouldn't have minded one little bit if the long, long Shaido arc after they were defeated in The Fires of Heaven was removed from the series. I understand why Robert Jordan made that arc wit the captivities necessary because that was the plot line used to show growth in the characters of Perrin and everyone with him. However, the Wheel of Time stories would have been just fine without the Shaido rampaging through the Wetlands. Also, the stories and characters of the Prophet and his henchmen, as well as the chapters with the Kin really didn't interest me very much. Whenever I do another re-read, I skim quickly through those chapters. 

[wotfan4472]

On 12/20/2024 at 4:17 AM, driftnet said:

I feel like the series really starts to drag in the middle and should probably have been maybe nine or ten books. I'm curious about what others think. This is what I would do:

 

• Remove the Seanchan entirely (everything about them, not just their POVs)
• Remove Valan Luca and the circus stuff
• Remove the Kin and probably the Windfinders
• Remove most of the camping captive stuff (a lot of this is Shaido)
• Trim the Tower novice lessons

 

Getting rid of the Seanchan alone eliminates or trims a bunch of other character POV chapters where they're dealing with the invasion one way or another, on top of the Seanchan POVs themselves. Besides, being in the minds of slavers is just gross.

 

It seems like every woman in the series gets captured at least once and spends time as a prisoner in one camp or another, which is just repetitive and excessive. The discovery of new weaves and re-discovery of lost abilities or talents doesn't require a bunch of new POVs. Neither does the quest to find the Bowl of the Winds. And there's too much switching and dishwashing and so on with characters in the White Tower.

 

There are some pretty annoying Nynaeve POV chapters outside of those bullet points that could go. I also think you could probably get rid of most of the Morgase/Gareth Bryne stuff, and move the rebel Aes Sedai along much more quickly.

 

I can't fail to note that trimming the books might have allowed RJ to complete the series himself. I'm mainly talking about structural stuff here, not mild annoyances like highly improbable knife throwing, but if you have thoughts on that I'd like to hear them, too. So what would you change to improve the series ("Nothing" is a perfectly valid answer)?

 

After all of the issues, there is only one thing I would change with it, and it is my biggest dislike of the show..... More freaking episodes to the season from the beginning would have been nice!!! 

[Asthereal]

Well, there's quite a lot to be honest. But then again I'm a very different type of writer. 😛 

Here's what I'd do:

1. Have the Shaido Aiel be definitively defeated at Dumai's Wells. End that storyline there.

2. Cut out the entire storyline with the weather being affected by the DO and the Bowl of Winds.

3. Significantly cut down the circus stuff. (IE: only use it for a chapter or two to escape, but not linger at the circus and get to know characters there. We do have Nynaeve and Elayne rescue the leader, though, so Mat can cash in a favor later on.)

4. A forsaken + trollocks become the reason Perrin has to coorperate with the Seanchan.

5. Rand keeps tabs on Perrin a bit more, and finds out what the Prophet's been up to. He freaks and blows him away with weaves of fire.

6. Rand does go back to the Black Tower, but Lews Therin nearly takes over and Rand can only barely stop LT from murdering Mazrim Taim. Use this as the reason why Rand doesn't dare go back to the Tower for so long.

7. Tone down Cadsuane a tad, and have her sacrifice herself to keep Rand safe at the cleansing, leaving him to rely on Nynaeve as his Aes Sedai council. Focus a bit more on the friendship between Rand and Nynaeve.
8. Padin Fain needs more in the last part of the story (obviously). Maybe he can nearly take over the battle, and we can have Nynaeve come up with the idea that Mat may be able to help, go fetch him and he saves the day. Perhaps we need a different solution here, as Mat has too much to do in that scenario. I'm not sure. Maybe we need Padan Fain to be defeated earlier. End of the first act of the final book, maybe. This one's challenging to fix.

 

Oh and of course:

0. Rewrite the ending of book 1, as that one's a mess. We need to be clearer as to why we need to go to the EotW in the first place. Then we cut the green man, have only one forsaken show up, Moiraine only barely manages to hold him off until Rand comes in and wrecks him. Find a proper way of having Rand save the Shienar soldiers who are trying to hold off that army of trollocks. This one will take a lot of work as well.

 

What am I forgetting about?

[Finnssss22]

On 1/14/2025 at 8:04 AM, Asthereal said:

8. Padin Fain needs more in the last part of the story (obviously). Maybe he can nearly take over the battle, and we can have Nynaeve come up with the idea that Mat may be able to help, go fetch him and he saves the day. Perhaps we need a different solution here, as Mat has too much to do in that scenario. I'm not sure. Maybe we need Padan Fain to be defeated earlier. End of the first act of the final book, maybe. This one's challenging to fix.

 

 

 

No, Fain was never going to be a big baddie in the end.

You were fooled by his ramblings and delusions of grandeur. The guy was completely insane by the end of book 3 at the latest.

The Shadar Logath Taint was created by the pattern so the Dragon could cleanse saidin 2000 years later and Fain was created to give each of the boys individual pushes towards their proper paths.

He was never outside the pattern despite what he believed.

His final purpose was done after slashing Rand across the previous wound and it was just a matter of time until the pattern corrected him with Mat who was set up to do so from almost day 1.

His death was anticlimactic because it was supposed to be. He was never what he believed he was. 

[Asthereal]

On 3/5/2025 at 1:11 AM, Finnssss22 said:

No, Fain was never going to be a big baddie in the end.

You were fooled by his ramblings and delusions of grandeur. The guy was completely insane by the end of book 3 at the latest.

The Shadar Logath Taint was created by the pattern so the Dragon could cleanse saidin 2000 years later and Fain was created to give each of the boys individual pushes towards their proper paths.

He was never outside the pattern despite what he believed.

His final purpose was done after slashing Rand across the previous wound and it was just a matter of time until the pattern corrected him with Mat who was set up to do so from almost day 1.

His death was anticlimactic because it was supposed to be. He was never what he believed he was. 

 

Very much disagree. Padan Fain is an important character who comes back regularly and causes a lot of trouble. You don't know (and can't know) what role Fain was going to play. You can only have an opinion about it, and if you feel like Fain's ending was appropriate, that's cool, but I feel like the character deserved more than he got. His ending to me felt like an afterthought.

 

You can compare it to the Prophet. Sanderson probably had very little to go on for him as well, and decided too many things were going on already, so he cut him out in the beginning of book 12. This made sense to me. If he wanted to do the same with Fain, he could have had Mat kill him somewhere in the beginning of book 13. That way, Fain wouldn't be part of the grand finale and perhaps I'd be more okay with it. It could have been used as an action-packed part of the beginning, to jump-start the book. The way it's written now, Fain pops up briefly here and there, and then kind of comes out of nowhere in the finale, after which he just dies in two paragraphs. I'd say either develop him more and make his ending more impactful (perhaps have him kill an important character before Mat destroys him), or just Masema him out of the story in an opener somewhere. But I'd go for developing him more. Fain's been with us since the very beginning and he nearly  succeeded in killing Rand several times. Whenever he shows himself, cool stuff happens (as opposed to Masema who is very much part of the slog). I wanted more.

[Finnssss22]

4 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

Very much disagree. Padan Fain is an important character who comes back regularly and causes a lot of trouble. You don't know (and can't know) what role Fain was going to play. You can only have an opinion about it, and if you feel like Fain's ending was appropriate, that's cool, but I feel like the character deserved more than he got. His ending to me felt like an afterthought.

 

You can compare it to the Prophet. Sanderson probably had very little to go on for him as well, and decided too many things were going on already, so he cut him out in the beginning of book 12. This made sense to me. If he wanted to do the same with Fain, he could have had Mat kill him somewhere in the beginning of book 13. That way, Fain wouldn't be part of the grand finale and perhaps I'd be more okay with it. It could have been used as an action-packed part of the beginning, to jump-start the book. The way it's written now, Fain pops up briefly here and there, and then kind of comes out of nowhere in the finale, after which he just dies in two paragraphs. I'd say either develop him more and make his ending more impactful (perhaps have him kill an important character before Mat destroys him), or just Masema him out of the story in an opener somewhere. But I'd go for developing him more. Fain's been with us since the very beginning and he nearly  succeeded in killing Rand several times. Whenever he shows himself, cool stuff happens (as opposed to Masema who is very much part of the slog). I wanted more.

 

But you do understand that him boasting/thinking he's outside the pattern is completely self delusional right?

Shadar Logath and its evil was literally created by the Pattern to provide Rand a way to cleanse saidin.

All that evil does is consume everything around it and itself. 

Only reason Fain wasn't consumed was because of what Ishamael did to him to make him into a hound for the Shadow much in the same way the 2 evils in Rand's wound hold each other at bay.

 

Fain and the SL taint are integral to pushing Mat to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

Fain is integral to pushing Perrin to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

Fain is integral to pushing Rand to what and where he needs to be and what he needs to do.

 

That is what the pattern set Fain up to do.

 

We're talking about a guy that is completely insane by book 3 at the latest. Doesn't accomplish anything that doesn't have to do with pushing the boys and literally runs away at the slightest resistance over and over and over.

 

Other than his own mad ramblings and delusions of grandeur there is absolutely nothing to indicate he will accomplish more or deserves to be greater other than in his own mind.

 

I'm telling you, you have been fooled my friend.

Edited 12 hours ago by Finnssss22