How important will the Sea Folk be in AMoL?

[GrandpaG]

Rand felt that it was important that he have a pact with the Sea Folk.  Why?  What does he know about TG that I don't?

 

I can see them being somewhat useful for moving non-vital goods.  But, with Travelling readily available, why does Rand need the Sea Folk?  My impression is that most of the action will be land based, not naval.

 

What am I missing?

[callandor]

he would need their support because he wats them with him, not against him. also, the phrophocies said something about them.

[Damon]

And all the Windfinders that can channel are a bigggg help xD.

[Majsju]

Travelling is not as efficient as it might seem. We know that there are limits to how big people can make Gateways, and many of them can not make big enough for wagons to go through unless they link. And once TG really kicks off, all channelers strong enough to make big gateways will be way to busy fighting, and most of the weaker channelers will be involved in the fighting one way or another. There is also the matter of fatigue, after X Gateways, all channelers must rest.

 

 

[Elgee]

To add on to what Damon said: The Aes Sedai are restricted in their use of the Power by the oaths - no such restrictions for the Windfinders

[Mazrim Taim]

Besides all that the sea folk have extensive knowledge of other parts of the world...

[Luckers]

The first and most obvious point is the windfinders... based on the suggest ship distribution, and added to the number of apprentices that could possibly exist, there may be as many as 3,000 windfinders.

 

Recall, too that not only do Windfinders have a completely unique and potent method of weaving, but they are prefectly willing to use the one power as a weapon, which puts them above the Wise Ones and the Aes Sedai in terms of military value.

 

Beyond that, the Sea Folk, through there deep unpleasentness, provide a counter-balance for Aes Sedai arrogance. This is also something i suspect will be in play in the last book; pay attention specifically to the way Logain was protective towards the Aes Sedai in the face of the Atha'an Miere in KoD.

 

In all... yeah, the Sea Folk are fairly lame, and in the grand scheme of things they are one of the weaker players, but they will have their role to play.

[GrandpaG]

I was thinking along the lines of logistics.  Totally missed the 3,000 windfinders.  Plus, we know some of them are very strong in the one power.  I wonder if they have any hidden stash of angreal/sa'angreal like the one at Ebou Dar?  They travel all over the known world and trade extensively.  Probably some male channellers hiding about, too?  I thought maybe Rand had read something important in one of the books about the prophesies that included the Sea Folk being vital to the war effort or some such.  Some of that type thing I only learn by reading posts at DM.  Thanks for the responses.

[callandor]

i think when they have a male channler they throw them overboard. i might and are probably mistaken, but thats what i would do before rand cleaned saidin.

[Luckers]

RJ has stated that the Sea Folk kill their male channelers.

[GrandpaG]

Time for a new topic about male channelers... :-\

[Belar]

I cant see the sea folk having a massive part to play in aMoL, tbh i fell they have played there major part in the storylines with the bowl of winds, the only other part i can see them playing is making up the numbers in TG, but i do think they have a story after TG is helping reorganise the world and there is also i beleive "the continent of Madness" will have something to do with them

[cloglord]

Personally I think that Lucker's suggestion of 3000 windfinders is high.  I'm not sure where he gets that number as he didn't bother to offer any proof other than some vauge reference to ship distribution.  Even if each ship in the seafolk armada had one windfinder and once apprentice, which I find unlikely, then it would mean that there were 1500 ships in the seafolk nation, a number that I don't think could have fit itself into Tear, Illian, and ebou dar harbors.  If we use the 1% number that seems to be the standard percentage of channelers to non-channelers, then by Luckers estimate, the seafolk are a nation of about 300,000  on 1500 boats, that's 200 people per boat, seems like a lot to me. 

 

Nor do I sagree that they are more more useful militarily.  The first reason for this is that Randland seems to have no serious naval military history.  Lacking cannons, it would be a matter of boarding and fighting hand to hand or using bows from ship to ship.  Given that until recently the Seafolk have managed to hide the fact that there is a channeling force of ANY size amongst them, it seems very unlikely that the windfinders make regular use of their OP abilities in battle.  In short, they are very good at weather, which may have some use in a battle, but are otherwise completely untrained to OP combat.  On the other hand, it would seem to me that most all Aes Sedai are trained to use the OP as a weapon to at least some degree. We have seen no instance of an Aes Sedai from any ajah being unable to fight back.  Presumably, the green ajah trains in this area to a greater degree, and the Red ajah has specific training to deal with men who channel,  useful when dealing with dreadlords I would think. 

 

In short, Aes Sedai are better trained, but restricted.  However this restriction is not going to be a factor in TG because everyone will be in danger, and there will be few enemies that aren't aligned with the DO.  Windfinders, Kin, and Wise Women, are more numerous and less restricted, but lack the training or practice in OP warfare to be as effective individually.   

[Luckers]

Personally I think that Lucker's suggestion of 3000 windfinders is high.  I'm not sure where he gets that number as he didn't bother to offer any proof other than some vauge reference to ship distribution.  Even if each ship in the seafolk armada had one windfinder and once apprentice, which I find unlikely, then it would mean that there were 1500 ships in the seafolk nation, a number that I don't think could have fit itself into Tear, Illian, and ebou dar harbors.  If we use the 1% number that seems to be the standard percentage of channelers to non-channelers, then by Luckers estimate, the seafolk are a nation of about 300,000  on 1500 boats, that's 200 people per boat, seems like a lot to me. 

 

My suggestion is very very loose, i admit. Nevertheless it is a statement based on the appearence of ships in reference in the books. Moreover, based on evidence within the books each ship does have it windfinder--which i love to notice you offer no evidence against... so how bout it cloglord... where are these ships without their windfinders?--and moreover concidering the longevity of channelers, i find it hard to believe that their is not a proclivity of windfinders amongst those ships witnessed. We even know that some ships (the first thirteen) have two windfinders. The question of the disposition of apprentices is absolutely up in the air given that we have no evidence about the frequency of their presence on the ships.

 

Furthermore, your math is wrong. RJ stated that (roughly) one percent of the poputalation can channel; that includes men. Therefore the number you were looking for is 150,000.

 

And where did you come up with 1,500 boats?

 

So, for clarity, every Sea Folk ship we have encountered EVER (capitals for cloglord) has had a windfinder, some have had two. We know that unlike Aes Sedai and Aiel the Sea Folk generally live full lives, meaning 650+ years for channelers. Given general descriptiong of ships at harbour in Tear and Illian (not to mention the description of the amount of Windfinders captured in Ebou Dar) I suggest that a VERY loose estimate of their numbers would be around 3,000. Much less than 2,000 i would frankly find unlikely. 4,000 strikes me as equally silly.

 

Nor do I sagree that they are more more useful militarily.  The first reason for this is that Randland seems to have no serious naval military history.  Lacking cannons, it would be a matter of boarding and fighting hand to hand or using bows from ship to ship.  Given that until recently the Seafolk have managed to hide the fact that there is a channeling force of ANY size amongst them, it seems very unlikely that the windfinders make regular use of their OP abilities in battle.  In short, they are very good at weather, which may have some use in a battle, but are otherwise completely untrained to OP combat.  On the other hand, it would seem to me that most all Aes Sedai are trained to use the OP as a weapon to at least some degree. We have seen no instance of an Aes Sedai from any ajah being unable to fight back.  Presumably, the green ajah trains in this area to a greater degree, and the Red ajah has specific training to deal with men who channel,  useful when dealing with dreadlords I would think.

 

I'm sorry, again i disagree. The actions of the circle in Caemlyn show that militiristic uses of the power are prevelant and obvious to the Sea Folk. Neither the fact that they do not use the power readily in front of strangers, not that Jorin had difficulity using the power as a weapon stands against the numbers present in Caemlyn, nor their position on the matter.

 

In short, Aes Sedai are better trained, but restricted.  However this restriction is not going to be a factor in TG because everyone will be in danger, and there will be few enemies that aren't aligned with the DO.  Windfinders, Kin, and Wise Women, are more numerous and less restricted, but lack the training or practice in OP warfare to be as effective individually. 

 

I'm sorry, again... in what way are Aes Sedai trained in warfare? They are trained AGAINST warfare. Even the Greens. Whilst i agree that they are more able to face military threat then the Aiel and the Kin, the Sea Folk have never had any compunctions about using the power in battle... as they indeed make clear.

[cloglord]

My suggestion is very very loose, i admit. Nevertheless it is a statement based on the appearence of ships in reference in the books. Moreover, based on evidence within the books each ship does have it windfinder--which i love to notice you offer no evidence against... so how bout it cloglord... where are these ships without their windfinders?--and moreover concidering the longevity of channelers, i find it hard to believe that their is not a proclivity of windfinders amongst those ships witnessed.

 

You say it is based upon the appearance of ships in the books, but I don't recall a single instance of a quantifiable number of ships being given.  If you can supply a hard number from anywhere in the books, I'll be happy to discuss the number of windfinders in relation to those hard numbers.  Secondly, I have not offered proof that every ship does not have a windfinder simply because I believe that every ship DOES have a windfinder.  However, we have no idea how many ships the Seafolk have.  Because we don't know how many ships there are, we have no idea how many windfinders it would take to staff the ships.  Here's a bit of evidence for you, in the event that you can manage to come up with some sort of documentable number of ships.  From TSR Ch. 20

 

It is not all of us.  Only some.  We send a few girls to Tarvalon so Aes SEdai will not come looking among us.  No ship will carry Aes Sedai whose Windfinder can weave the winds.

 

So even if we did know how many ships the Seafolk have, it would not tell us anything definative about the number of Windfinders, and it would tell us even less about the number of windfinders who can channel.

 

And where did you come up with 1,500 boats?

 

From your number, I generously allotted two channeling windfinders to every Seafolk vessel in my estimation.  If there were 3,000 channeling windfinders, and if every boat had 2 channelers on it, that would be 1500 ships.

 

 

So, for clarity, every Sea Folk ship we have encountered EVER (capitals for cloglord) has had a windfinder

 

Yes, you are right all THREE (capitals are for luckers) Seafolk ships that have been mentioned by name in the series, (Wavedancer, Whote Spray, & Windrunner,) have had a windfinder.

 

Given general descriptiong of ships at harbour in Tear and Illian (not to mention the description of the amount of Windfinders captured in Ebou Dar)

 

Yes, general descriptions, can you find a way to quantify these numbers?  I don't recall reading any specific clues as to the numbers of ships or captured windfinders.  Not to say they aren't there, but I don't remember them, and you haven't supplied them yet.

 

Since we are generalizing however, lets try a hypothetical math question.  Lets assume that the Seafolk were evenly spread among Ebou Dar, Illian, and Tear at the time of the Seanchan arrival at Ebou Dar.  Lets further speculate that fully one half of the windfinders at Ebou Dar were captured and collared.  If we use your estimate of 3000 Windfinders in this scenario that would mean that 500 Windfinders were captured and held during the fall of Ebou Dar.  Doesn't that seem like an excessively large number to you?  It does me.

 

The actions of the circle in Caemlyn show that militiristic uses of the power are prevelant and obvious to the Sea Folk.

  Here you are just plain wrong.  The example you cite is one that a very good example of how little the seafolk knew about the militaristic uses of the OP prior to recieving Aes Sedai training.  The circle you mentioned did 5 things during that battle.  1. It formed a circle, a skill taught to them by Aes Sedai.  2.  They traveled, another skilled taught them by Aes Sedai.  3.  They shielded members of the BA, another skill that was taught to them, as was evidenced by their treatment of Nynaeve in her last lesson before fleeing with Rand.  4.  They channeled lightning, a skill very much in keeping with their weather realted skills.  5.  They bound the BA sisters with flows of air, again one of the five powers that is critical in the weaving of weather.  The skill mentioned as being the critical part of the windfinders defeat of those BA sisters was their ability to link.  Without the training that the Aes Sedai gave them it would have been at best an even match, but more likely one that leaned to the BA as they had powerful Terangreal, the ability to link, and the ability to shield their opponents.

 

Neither the fact that they do not use the power readily in front of strangers, not that Jorin had difficulity using the power as a weapon stands against the numbers present in Caemlyn, nor their position on the matter.

 

It was not only that Jorin had difficulty, but that she was able to imporve her abilities substantially under the tutelage of Elayne, who had only been recieving training for less than one year.  Here's the relevant citation.

 

TSR Ch. 39

She [Elayne] had learned a great deal, and taught a little, as well.  Jorin could certainly weave fire much better now.

 

So the case of Jorin is not a case of a single channeler that was very weak in the use of Fire, but rather someone who could benefit from the novice training that Elayne had recieved to that point.  Simply, Jorin knew less about one of the 5 powers than a girl who had only been studying them for a year.  I'd say that is a pretty telling fact about what the average windfinder does and does not know.  Couple that with the fact that the windfinders as a whole seemed ignorant of the ability to shiled another channeler, and to form links, and we get a pretty clear picture of what Windfinder training entails.  It is about weather, and not much else.

 

I'm sorry, again... in what way are Aes Sedai trained in warfare? They are trained AGAINST warfare. Even the Greens. Whilst i agree that they are more able to face military threat then the Aiel and the Kin, the Sea Folk have never had any compunctions about using the power in battle... as they indeed make clear.

 

They are not trained against warfare, they are sworn against violence with the OP except in the defense of their lives, sisters, and warders, or against shadowspawn.  A doctor is sworn against doing harm, but does that mean that they don't understand how to do harm?  Don't you think that a surgeon could do quite a bit of harm if they desired?  Wouldn't their training give them some insight as to best cause harm?  Police are sworn to protect and serve, does that mean that they don't have training in firearms?  The Greens train specifically FOR warfare, they are the BATTLE ajah.  The Reds train specifically FOR defeating men who channel, that's what they do.  Both groups would be very effective in TG.  Hell, Moraine, knew ton's of battle weaves, and she's not from either ajah.  Verin can throw fireballs, and bewitch catapult stones to explode with the best of them, and she's a brown.  It seems pretty obvious to me that all ajahs, have some training in weaves with militaristic value.  Admiteedly not to the extent that Damane are, but certainly to a much greater extent than we have seen from the Windfinders, Kin, or Wise Ones. 

 

[GrandpaG]

Any idea what was in the prophecies about the Sea Folk being critical to Rand's cause?

[RobertAlexWillis]

As far as I can tell, the Kraethon Cycle doesn't mention the Sea Folk at all.  The Jendai Prophecy, which predicts the Coramoor, we have only some signs of the Coramoor's coming (Rand's ability to channel, the taking of Callandor, the Aiel coming over the Dragonwall, the White Tower being broken by his name ... TSR ch 19) and vague notions of glory for the Sea Folk (ACoS ch 34).  The Jendai Prophecy is very short on detail.

[GrandpaG]

Some books I'd like to get my hands on:

 

- the books that Rand had scattered about his room in the Stone.

 

- Herrid Fel's books that Min has been reading.

 

- the Travels of Jayne Farstrider.

[DonDew]

  Rand resisted contacting the Sea Folk because he was hoping to leave one people free of the chaos that he sees following him.

  If I'm understanding correctly, I think Rand's plan for the Sea Folk is to try to keep them away from battle so that, like his "acadamies",they may help lessen the aftereffects of TG by being a reliable method of moving food,goods,and knowledge.

[GrandpaG]

   Rand resisted contacting the Sea Folk because he was hoping to leave one people free of the chaos that he sees following him.

   If I'm understanding correctly, I think Rand's plan for the Sea Folk is to try to keep them away from battle so that, like his "acadamies",they may help lessen the aftereffects of TG by being a reliable method of moving food,goods,and knowledge.

 

 

Now that you've said it, this is blindingly obvious but I hadn't thought of it this way before...thanks.

[jsbrads]

because Seafolk windfinders marry and have children they may have a higher distribution than the women in Randland, so 2% of people = one in a boat of 50 people might be ok.

Windfinders seem to be even with Seachan (Elayne and Nynaeve tavel on a boat in which the windfinder had previously battle a Damane) and everyone knows they train for battle well.

Reds vs. Dreadlords, sorry that will be the end of the Reds if they try. Reds are only experienced in shielding an untrained looser they cannot fight him or beat him unless they shield him while sleeping, get really lucky or use overwhelming force.

I think Moraine is unique amoung Aes Sedai, though all Aes Sedai spend alot of time learning... so Greens are still our best shot until the other Ajahs take crash courses in Battle 101.

[Littel me]

I seem to remnber that Jorin, the windfinder on the first ship Ny. og El. sailed with, only just managed(sp???) to set fire to the Seachan ship.

 

If this is the case it dont seem like the windfinder er train for battel.

[Luckers]

Actually Jorin is a fairly unimpressive Windfinder, as Windfinders go. The Windfinders in Caemlyn make it quite clear that they have no compunctions about using the One Power in battle, only that they refuse to do so on behalf of Elayne.

[GrandpaG]

Do the windfinders strike anybody besides me as being..."different"?

 

Maybe it's because of the militaristic structure that they live in, I don't know.  On dry-ground-randland the AS are in charge whereever they go.  The windfinders defer to non-channellers because of the chain of command and fear of being reassigned to a fishing boat or something.  Instead of being the "pirate-type" in-charge bad-asses that they should be, they hunker down and submit to the will of the captainess (whatever they're called).

[Charlz Guybon]

Actually Jorin is a fairly unimpressive Windfinder, as Windfinders go. The Windfinders in Caemlyn make it quite clear that they have no compunctions about using the One Power in battle, only that they refuse to do so on behalf of Elayne.

They had had a lot of training from Aes Sedai at that point.

 

The reason the Seanchan were able to take Ebou Dar so easy despite the hundreds of windfinders in the harbor was because they were not skilled at using the power in battle. A few months being trained as damane for battle, and they were able to fight their way from the Tarasian place to the docks, cross the bay to the Rahad to rescue their crews, cross back and take over their ships, this despite there being more damane in the city then on the day it was taken.