Alanna Mosvani - Speculation

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

17 hours ago, Shawlee said:

Rand AND Lan got forced bonded. The wo real gentlemen! Come on robert! Are you saying being a decent man with immense respect for women will get you raped? That's what bothered me. 

Except Rand did not exhibit "immense respect for women" in either our modern world context or the world of the books - his attempts to prevent the maidens of the spear from participating in battles were not well received (to the point where they were willing to commit mass suicide rather than permit it to continue), his attempts to choose on behalf of women who loved him that they could not be near him had a similar effect and even in the last book Egwene had to speak severely to him about the right o each person to choose.   He was taking away their choices, in effect objectifying them or infantalising them which is not much better (ethicaly)  than the misogynist attitude of treating women as sex objects.

[Shawlee]

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Except Rand did not exhibit "immense respect for women" in either our modern world context or the world of the books - his attempts to prevent the maidens of the spear from participating in battles were not well received (to the point where they were willing to commit mass suicide rather than permit it to continue), his attempts to choose on behalf of women who loved him that they could not be near him had a similar effect and even in the last book Egwene had to speak severely to him about the right o each person to choose.   He was taking away their choices, in effect objectifying them or infantalising them which is not much better (ethicaly)  than the misogynist attitude of treating women as sex objects.

 

Here we go again.... I did not want to get into this.

 

Well if you think that's true, as a woman myself, who was born in a muslim country and had to face ignorant Men trying to dictate her life, I disagree with you wholeheartedly.  I understand the women's pov( aes sedais to maidens), and would've thought the same if it was a man who was anyone other than Rand Al'Thor. But even after reading and knowing his mind and inner turmoils if you still do not understand him; well If RJ couldn't convince you, what can a lowly reader like me do? 

 

Everyone has their own opinions, and are entiltled to it. So i would just leave it at that. If you disagree please go to another post and rant. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think it is important to remember that we all have different life experiences and we also take different things out of the books.

 

Rand's aversion to letting women make their own choices is something that for me made little sense, and his refusal to fight, for example, Lanfear meant that he was hurting other women through his inaction. His inner turmoil 100% did not help me understand. 

 

However it is very interesting to know that other people did understand. I would love to hear from someone who did understand, but I can also understand that this kind of issue can be very emotive and very close to someone's heart, so would not be the most pleasant thing to discuss. 

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Rand's aversion to letting women make their own choices is something that for me made little sense, and his refusal to fight, for example, Lanfear meant that he was hurting other women through his inaction. His inner turmoil 100% did not help me understand. 

 

However it is very interesting to know that other people did understand. I would love to hear from someone who did understand, but I can also understand that this kind of issue can be very emotive and very close to someone's heart, so would not be the most pleasant thing to discuss. 

I have a hard time to understand either, but I can understand one important related fact: having good intentions does not make you right, it does not guarantee you will not make mistakes or take stupid decisions.

 

Rand never had to take morally difficult decisions in his life until he became the dragon. he's completely unprepared for the necessity to choose lesser evils all the time. I think in our western world most of us is at least somewhat aquainted with the notion, since we are all called to vote in politics and choose between many unsavory options; rand is even more unprepared than that. and so tries to draw some lines that he will not cross.

and it's quite the wrong thing to do, and the lines he draws are really dumb anyway. but it was a honest best attempt at a sheepherder turned politician to keep some integrity.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

11 hours ago, Shawlee said:

Everyone has their own opinions, and are entiltled to it. So i would just leave it at that. If you disagree please go to another post and rant. 

That is well said - and once again we are in need of an "agree to disagree" response.  

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I have a hard time to understand either, but I can understand one important related fact: having good intentions does not make you right, it does not guarantee you will not make mistakes or take stupid decisions.

 

Rand never had to take morally difficult decisions in his life until he became the dragon. he's completely unprepared for the necessity to choose lesser evils all the time. I think in our western world most of us is at least somewhat aquainted with the notion, since we are all called to vote in politics and choose between many unsavory options; rand is even more unprepared than that. and so tries to draw some lines that he will not cross.

and it's quite the wrong thing to do, and the lines he draws are really dumb anyway. but it was a honest best attempt at a sheepherder turned politician to keep some integrity.

Elayne tried to teach him that, but yet again he refused to learn the real lessons she was trying to teach him. I always try and remember that in many ways if it came out today the story would possibly be considered YA fiction, RJ's strength is his world building, one of his weaknesses is making his hero fully relatable, even at 19 when I first finished the first 6 books I watched rand make horrific decision after horrific decision, in fact much of the early story is people making the same bad choices time and time again (the girls seem to have a real thing for falling into traps). His insistance to "protect all women and take away any of their agency" is still controlling and horrendous even if it comes from a moral place. By refusing to hurt a women he puts the world at risk, I could accept this if not for the fact he willingly hangs an aiel who is friends with him, or sacrifices men at will with no concerns. It is one of the things that grated on me. 

 

Where some here see that as "realistic writing" I could never, even remotely connect to Rand as a 19 year old, because in many ways he jut seemed dumb. Perrin I got and understood, he was reluctant but he made the hard decisions, Matt, well by book 4 Matt isn't really Matt, he is thousands of memories of men that have done all sorts of things. He is an old soul in a young body. 

[king of nowhere]

27 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I could accept this if not for the fact he willingly hangs an aiel who is friends with him

 

That was a good decision. Would you respect rand if he applied his own laws for the common people but made exceptions for those he likes? As a ruler, rand must not play favourites

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, Shawlee said:

 

Here we go again.... I did not want to get into this.

 

Well if you think that's true, as a woman myself, who was born in a muslim country and had to face ignorant Men trying to dictate her life, I disagree with you wholeheartedly.  I understand the women's pov( aes sedais to maidens), and would've thought the same if it was a man who was anyone other than Rand Al'Thor. But even after reading and knowing his mind and inner turmoils if you still do not understand him; well If RJ couldn't convince you, what can a lowly reader like me do? 

 

Everyone has their own opinions, and are entiltled to it. So i would just leave it at that. If you disagree please go to another post and rant. 

Why does Rand Al Thor get a bye here? regardless of the reasoning his behaviour is to remove the agency of women. It is the act that matters, not the reason behind it, Rand takes away the rights of women to make free choices, he shows that subconsciously he considers irrational, unable to accept risk unable to make the "right" decisions while he happily lets the men do whatever they want. 

The thing is that goes against even how he thought Eomonds Field worked, the boys often comment on how women of Eomonds field will do what they want and the men have no say. I understand the story, I understand the logic but none of that akes what Rand does ok, none of it makes it less mysoganistic then if he had done it because he didn't think women could do it. 

[Scarloc99]

6 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

That was a good decision. Would you respect rand if he applied his own laws for the common people but made exceptions for those he likes? As a ruler, rand must not play favourites

I agree it was a good decision, my point is that he shows ruthlessness sometimes and then forgets all those lessons in other moments, he is also wiling to sacrifice women in moments, for instance letting them protect him when cleansing the source. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I have to say that there are certainly bits of Rand that I can relate to. The pain that he feels when women are hurt or die for "him." I can totally relate, and I think the difference with how he treats men is understandable. He does not enjoy leading men into battle, or punishing them, and is deeply affected by the plight of dragonsworn and their victims. The self-torture, completely relatable, going through the list of women again again. Definitely follow that, though he has a much better memory than me, no way I could have kept a list that long in my head. 

 

All of this, I get. He is clearly struggling with the weight of responsibility, where the entire world rests on his shoulders. And women being victims is straw that breaks his metaphorical back.

 

What I don't relate to is the way he reacts to this inner pain, and I don't get the feeling that he is meant to be irrational. I think RJ wanted us to understand his actions, and while I think he was convincing showing the pain, and the reluctance, for example, to send the Maidens into battle, it for me seems to go one step far. And I don't mean because that makes sexist or misogynist, but because it just does not seem to be the logical reaction to the pain. Like his inability to fight Lanfear as she was a woman, seems to take that one element (which to an extent was the icing on the cake of his torment) become the entirety of his struggle, so that that was more important than his friends, the fate of the world, or his own destiny. Which I just never understood, either why Rand would act like that or why RJ thought he would, which of course is a subtly different thing.

 

And I would just like to say that his is only what I took out of the books. This is not the truth, or what RJ meant, or is how loss of agency works, or facts. I completely do not want to insult or upset anyone, or suggest what they read in the books is incorrect. Not least as I am not saying I remember it perfectly, let alone that my interpretations are more insightful than anyone else's. 

[Shawlee]

2 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I have to say that there are certainly bits of Rand that I can relate to. The pain that he feels when women are hurt or die for "him." I can totally relate, and I think the difference with how he treats men is understandable. He does not enjoy leading men into battle, or punishing them, and is deeply affected by the plight of dragonsworn and their victims. The self-torture, completely relatable, going through the list of women again again. Definitely follow that, though he has a much better memory than me, no way I could have kept a list that long in my head. 

 

All of this, I get. He is clearly struggling with the weight of responsibility, where the entire world rests on his shoulders. And women being victims is straw that breaks his metaphorical back.

 

What I don't relate to is the way he reacts to this inner pain, and I don't get the feeling that he is meant to be irrational. I think RJ wanted us to understand his actions, and while I think he was convincing showing the pain, and the reluctance, for example, to send the Maidens into battle, it for me seems to go one step far. And I don't mean because that makes sexist or misogynist, but because it just does not seem to be the logical reaction to the pain. Like his inability to fight Lanfear as she was a woman, seems to take that one element (which to an extent was the icing on the cake of his torment) become the entirety of his struggle, so that that was more important than his friends, the fate of the world, or his own destiny. Which I just never understood, either why Rand would act like that or why RJ thought he would, which of course is a subtly different thing.

 

And I would just like to say that his is only what I took out of the books. This is not the truth, or what RJ meant, or is how loss of agency works, or facts. I completely do not want to insult or upset anyone, or suggest what they read in the books is incorrect. Not least as I am not saying I remember it perfectly, let alone that my interpretations are more insightful than anyone else's. 

 

 

You summarized it so well. This is how i felt and still feel.

 

When some people say these characters are not relatable, i understand it isn't relatable to them, which is perfectly reasonable as not everyone has the same experiences.

 

But what i do not like, and have a problem with, is when people try to push it as the only opinion.

 

Those of us who relates can understand and differentiate that honestly this is just a story, we really don't need to get political about it. 

 

That's all I will say about RJs "failure" of characters building.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Shawlee

[Storeebooq]

In ref to Rand's unwillingness to hurt women, and how it grew and expanded over time (esp in reference to the list of women who died), I always attributed it to one of the effects of madness that was less obvious than hearing voices. I did think it went a bit too far and wasn't realistic, but if you think in terms of madness it makes more sense. Obsessions like that can easily develop and have far reaching effects in someone's psych. It's kind of a loose theory though. Ultimately I didn't like RJ's plotpoint with this and it made it hard for me to relate to Rand. 

 

Back to the topic, I agree with Alanna possibly being merged with Myrelle. It would make a lot of sense as their characters are pretty similar (if only talking about show Alanna and not book Alanna). I think that's about as far as it will go though and I hope they continue to develop Alanna because if she does bond Rand against his will, I want it too be a real struggle for us audience members. I want us to deal with a violation vs. a character we have grown to like. I'm curious to how Alanna will reason it out. 

 

P.S. Oh, and some of y'all need to stop with the 'orgy ajah' quips. Seriously, how childish can you be? I know this is an assumption I've seen folks make to anyone who is polyamorous. I've had it lobbied at me as well, and it just isn't true in how we practice and live our lives. To apply it to an entire ajah just cause you have immature feelings towards a healthy, if non-traditional, relationship in the show is ridiculous. /endrant

 

 

[Shawlee]

55 minutes ago, Storeebooq said:

To apply it to an entire ajah just cause you have immature feelings towards a healthy, if non-traditional, relationship in the show is ridiculous. /endrant

 

I Laughed so hard at this. 😅🤣🤣🤣

 

I think we as a fandom needed to be scold. Our main character has three "wives".

Let's get over it!

Edited October 31, 2023 by Shawlee

[Shawlee]

 

 

15 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Why does Rand Al Thor get a bye here?

 

I don't know what you mean by here, but if you mean in my post(and my opinion); well, simply because he always felt like my near brother (younger than me), also because it is my interpretation... No one else has to like it. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Shawlee said:

 

 

 

I don't know what you mean by here, but if you mean in my post(and my opinion); well, simply because he always felt like my near brother (younger than me), also because it is my interpretation... No one else has to like it. 

Fair enough, always Intrested in different peoples views of character actions in the books.

[Yamezt]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:48 AM, Storeebooq said:

P.S. Oh, and some of y'all need to stop with the 'orgy ajah' quips. Seriously, how childish can you be? I know this is an assumption I've seen folks make to anyone who is polyamorous. I've had it lobbied at me as well, and it just isn't true in how we practice and live our lives. To apply it to an entire ajah just cause you have immature feelings towards a healthy, if non-traditional, relationship in the show is ridiculous. /endrant

I apologise for my quip in relation to harems. I do have this thing against harems (but not polyamory) as presented in a lot of novels as they generally either fetishized, or with misogyny undertones or other unhealthy situations.

 

It was completely unfair to compare TV-Alanna and Book-Myrelle in terms of their warder relationships. I actually do like how Alanna and her warders are presented in the TV series.

 

Book-Myrelle - there are a lot doubts in my mind as to the healthiness of her relationship with her warders/husbands.