Brandon Sanderson S2 Finale Reaction Video

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Carridin's fleeting regret that his actions had caused the horrible murders of his family members only highlights the two-dimensionality of the mean and selfish bad guys in my opinion, but I agree it is interesting to see his inner thoughts. Though it also emphasizes what a rough time Darkfriends get, difficult to see how you would ever have a content DF, doesn't seem like a winning recruitment policy.

 

There is quite a lot of hardships handed out females. Isendre, for example. That is pretty brutal, and involves the humiliation of a beautiful woman with a great emphasis placed on her beauty and her nudity, who is being punished and tortured by the Maidens but also forced to whore herself by the Shadow, and then is murdered once her attractiveness is gone and her spirit is broken. Every female Forsaken apart from Mesaana (who is turned into vegetable, which raises... well, nevermind), is tortured in really brutal fashion. None of the men are. Not that I can bring to mind, at least. 

 

I also don't get this attitude that you often see here, that someone posts that for example, for them there was too much emphasis on sexual abuse and torture of women. And then someone posts "no your wrong, you should not think that". Perhaps we should all be a bit more open to listen to other fans of book, and allow the different perspectives on the forum to enrich us, instead of seeing this as some kind of platform to impose our wills on?

[Yamezt]

10 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Every female Forsaken apart from Mesaana

(It was heavily implied Messana was raped by SH too. She wasn't spared)

Edited October 19, 2023 by Yamezt

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

13 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

(It was heavily implied Messana was raped by SH too. She wasn't spared)

I had forgotten about that. Eww. Glad you brought it back to my mind 🙂 

 

It always makes me smile that the Myrddral are heterosexual. Because they are literal manifestations of evil, living to spread fear and suffering, but they are not ...[enter word of choice here] 

[Jake Sykwalker]

3 hours ago, trw1972 said:

 

I got a fantasy loving friend to watch the show and he went on to try the books.

He commented on how the series felt 'very 90's' as well.

 

Personally i have read the series lots of times, but not for a couple of years and my memory is not as good as it was (too much radiotherapy to the head!).

 

I do remember there was a general obsession with breasts and spanking and a very odd storyline with Tylin that did not work for me at all. But i still loved the overall story

 

I have just started a reread, and i am on the hunt for the horn (the great hunt), it will be interesting to see if these things bother me this time around.

 

 

You will be amazed at how much more you pick up on a re-read.  He lays out a ton of stuff for you if you know what to look for.

 

Once criticism of Jordan's writing which I do agree with is his oversimplification of many characters including female characters.  Like every female character was based off of his wife, or one of his close female relatives.  For instance he likes to describe females as "plump."  People may do so in their head, but Elayne describing Else to Lanfear as plump out loud just seemed wrong.  

[trw1972]

8 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

You will be amazed at how much more you pick up on a re-read.  He lays out a ton of stuff for you if you know what to look for.

 

Once criticism of Jordan's writing which I do agree with is his oversimplification of many characters including female characters.  Like every female character was based off of his wife, or one of his close female relatives.  For instance he likes to describe females as "plump."  People may do so in their head, but Elayne describing Else to Lanfear as plump out loud just seemed wrong.  

 

I dread to think how many times i read the series. I was obsessed when young - i read the first book in 1992 and like many people i would re-read every previous book when a new book came out. 

 

It is a different experience as a middle aged man to be honest and yes i think its a common criticism of RJ, his writing of female characters.

 

Despite that, they do have their moments to shine, i loved the golden crane scene for example, and although i spent much of the series finding Egwene a bit annoying .. her final scenes definitely hit me.

[Gothic Flame]

12 hours ago, trw1972 said:

 

That is how i remember it as well, heck she restricts his food, puts a knife to his throat, and he tried to lock his door from what i remember? But it was all written in a sort of 'humorous' way and he ended up 'liking' his abuser at the end of it.

 

Maybe i am remembering it poorly, it has been a while.

 

 

Culture.

In many situations an Altaran woman has the right to kill a man unquestioned. Knives and swords are an important part of Altaran life. Both men and women fight duels over trivial disputes, often with fatal results. Altaran women carry marriage knives, which serve both as a formal way to broadcast marital status (its color and decorations describe marital and motherly status), and an easy method of disciplining their men. 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Gothic Flame

[DaddyFinn]

59 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Culture.

In many situations an Altaran woman has the right to kill a man unquestioned. Knives and swords are an important part of Altaran life. Both men and women fight duels over trivial disputes, often with fatal results. Altaran women carry marriage knives, which serve both as a formal way to broadcast marital status (its color and decorations describe marital and motherly status), and an easy method of disciplining their men. 

 

 

Mat was not a part of Altaran culture. 

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Yea I really disliked that too. IMO that was rape. From memory it was written as if it were a humorous scene - cringey. Something I hope they cut out if the TV series if the seasons makes it that far. 

I mean in many ways it was, but it can be shot for TV, the Netflix Show Bridgerton is a period drama which has a scene that shows exactly how you could film this. Matt could have tried to get himself out of the situation if he wanted, yes he doesn't like that he is not in control and she dresses him as she wants but he tells himself that some of it is fun. 
 

In some ways this storyline was key for Matt, he stops sleeping with any pretty girl that gives him a smile, mainly because Tylin puts the word out,  and then finds himself in Tuons presence and realises he wants to make the choice to be with her and not be forced. he also chooses to be in a relationship where he will always be at her beck and call. 

[Scarloc99]

13 hours ago, Yamezt said:

 

 

I can understand he was trying to turn his the tables with gender roles, but unfortunately it didn't quite work for me the last I read. I feel it is also at the expense on the issue as to how men are rarely believed when they report rape, cuz what manly man would refuse sex from a beautiful lady - they should only be so pleased.

 

Also,  I would be quite happy for the removal of all torture and sexual assault in the TV series too on female darkfriends and forsaken when they fail/capture. I don't know if RJ was trying to evoke a sense of schadenfreude from the readers or something, but I found it uncomfortable. Sure, I realise the world is a horrible place - and he probably knows more than I do how awful the world is with his experience of war - but it is like female darkfriends and forsaken have things dialled up to 20 when karma strikes them while the men just die quickly after battle and sometimes rather unceremoniously 

I mean darkfriends use compulsion for sex all the time, not just in the case of Morgase and the aes sedai that is forced to have sex just before the mansion is balefired, but the descriptions of Foresaken turning kings and queens into versions of the human centipede, making them "put on displays" etc. 

 

Rape and sexual assault run right through the books, genrally under the surface but they are there, I hope they are shown, but not to GOT levels, I hope instead things are hinted at and then cut to next scene or pan away. 

 

But yes Matt was forced and coherced to do things he didn't want to do but it was not rape, it was however an abusive relationship. 

[Scarloc99]

13 hours ago, fra85uk said:

 

Again, I disagree with this interpretation. I don't think RJ wanted us to feel schadenfreude. I often felt bad for the bad guys. For example, it was quite delicate the way he handled Jaichim Carridin POVs during his fall and how he tought about his family. Furthermore, the same darkfriend was horribly tortured and his death was disgusting.

I mean there is no redemptive qualities abotu Carridin, yes he remembers his sisters smile, or his nephews laugh, but he there is no regret there, no feeling of wanting it all to end, he almost is simply counting in his head how many are left until it reaches him. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Culture.

In many situations an Altaran woman has the right to kill a man unquestioned. Knives and swords are an important part of Altaran life. Both men and women fight duels over trivial disputes, often with fatal results. Altaran women carry marriage knives, which serve both as a formal way to broadcast marital status (its color and decorations describe marital and motherly status), and an easy method of disciplining their men. 

 

 

Mat himself is told that the way she is treating him is awful by another Altaran women. And I am sorry "culture" is not a defence for horrific behaviour, we as readers can still look at that and think "well thats pretty bad", the Seanchan start changing that culture when they come in. 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

Another thing to consider about the Tylin storyline is that as a reader we all find it pretty horrific, so, when we learn that the Seanchan are stamping down on it, making people fill out paperwork for duels meaning fewer people are dying for instance, it emphasises that the Seanchan bring far more positives to the lands they occupy then negatives.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

14 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Rape and sexual assault run right through the books, genrally under the surface but they are there, I hope they are shown,

Is there any particular reason that you hope they are shown, more than simply included? 

 

I understand that many would argue realism, but I think in a work of fiction, realism is not the strongest argument. And for example, why are there not scenes of male homosexual abuse (when there is female homosexual abuse)? Or towards children?

 

I'd argue that this is because such things, while also falling under the realism header, are distasteful to the audience. We don't have to dwell on the morality, as no one is actually being injured. And I would say this raises the question, why does (so much of) the audience not find abuse directed at attractive young women distasteful? And why, in a forum like this, do people seem dismissive of those who do think it is distasteful?

 

Why include something that actively reduces people's enjoyment of the series, and raises reasons for people not to watch/read the story?

 

Lots of questions, but it seems to me that if the men in the story can be (largely) treated without sexual abuse or humiliation, so can the women. And while there maybe some plot points where it would be difficult to avoid, like if Isendre was included, there is no need to revel in it, or to have it toned down as much possible, if not replaced with something less offensive.

[Yamezt]

59 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean in many ways it was, but it can be shot for TV, the Netflix Show Bridgerton is a period drama which has a scene that shows exactly how you could film this.

Are you talking about S1 and Daphne frustrating Simon from using the pull out method for contraception? I still found that rather icky and uncomfortable - definitely less icky than the novel version, but icky nonetheless.  

 

But I get your point that the show makers could try to reframe the situation so that it is more tasteful or the issue of consent is clearer

 

53 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Rape and sexual assault run right through the books, genrally under the surface but they are there, I hope they are shown, but not to GOT levels,

Yea, I love fantasy shows, but I could not make myself watch GOT.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Yamezt

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Is there any particular reason that you hope they are shown, more than simply included? 

 

I understand that many would argue realism, but I think in a work of fiction, realism is not the strongest argument. And for example, why are there not scenes of male homosexual abuse (when there is female homosexual abuse)? Or towards children?

 

I'd argue that this is because such things, while also falling under the realism header, are distasteful to the audience. We don't have to dwell on the morality, as no one is actually being injured. And I would say this raises the question, why does (so much of) the audience not find abuse directed at attractive young women distasteful? And why, in a forum like this, do people seem dismissive of those who do think it is distasteful?

 

Why include something that actively reduces people's enjoyment of the series, and raises reasons for people not to watch/read the story?

 

Lots of questions, but it seems to me that if the men in the story can be (largely) treated without sexual abuse or humiliation, so can the women. And while there maybe some plot points where it would be difficult to avoid, like if Isendre was included, there is no need to revel in it, or to have it toned down as much possible, if not replaced with something less offensive.

I mean I followed up the line you quoted with "Not to GOT levels, maybe cut away or fade to black before the actual act" 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean I followed up the line you quoted with "Not to GOT levels, maybe cut away or fade to black before the actual act" 

Yes, and I was asking why do you want it included, much less want it shown to any degree. Or did you mean "I hope they are shown" much less graphically? Because your punctuation makes it more like you hope they are shown, period. But you would be against removing these occurrences from the show?

[fra85uk]

21 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Carridin's fleeting regret that his actions had caused the horrible murders of his family members only highlights the two-dimensionality of the mean and selfish bad guys in my opinion, but I agree it is interesting to see his inner thoughts. Though it also emphasizes what a rough time Darkfriends get, difficult to see how you would ever have a content DF, doesn't seem like a winning recruitment policy.

 

There is quite a lot of hardships handed out females. Isendre, for example. That is pretty brutal, and involves the humiliation of a beautiful woman with a great emphasis placed on her beauty and her nudity, who is being punished and tortured by the Maidens but also forced to whore herself by the Shadow, and then is murdered once her attractiveness is gone and her spirit is broken. Every female Forsaken apart from Mesaana (who is turned into vegetable, which raises... well, nevermind), is tortured in really brutal fashion. None of the men are. Not that I can bring to mind, at least. 

 

I also don't get this attitude that you often see here, that someone posts that for example, for them there was too much emphasis on sexual abuse and torture of women. And then someone posts "no your wrong, you should not think that". Perhaps we should all be a bit more open to listen to other fans of book, and allow the different perspectives on the forum to enrich us, instead of seeing this as some kind of platform to impose our wills on?

 

 

No but I don't think you were wrong or arguing on the fact that 

"there was too much emphasis on sexual abuse and torture of women"

 

Just i don't think it was RJ purpose to have us feel happy about the Darkfriends getting retribution.

Edited October 20, 2023 by fra85uk

[king of nowhere]

On 10/19/2023 at 11:00 AM, Scarloc99 said:

There are a few moments in the books where BS relies on artifically generating tension through a series of very unlikely events. 

you mean, like a queen running away from her palace, reaching the aiel waste, getting accepted in far dareis mai, just in time to participate in the aiel wars - the one time in 3000 years the aiel left the waste - so that she could die on the slopes of dragonmount while giving birth to the dragon reborn, who would then be found by a sheepherder-turned-blademaster-turned-sheepherder-again?

it's called ta'veren. the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. the world of wot has a perfectly built-in justification for unlikely events.

[Scarloc99]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

you mean, like a queen running away from her palace, reaching the aiel waste, getting accepted in far dareis mai, just in time to participate in the aiel wars - the one time in 3000 years the aiel left the waste - so that she could die on the slopes of dragonmount while giving birth to the dragon reborn, who would then be found by a sheepherder-turned-blademaster-turned-sheepherder-again?

it's called ta'veren. the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. the world of wot has a perfectly built-in justification for unlikely events.

Sorry no, those are long term plot points, BS artificially tries to drive tension within a scene in a way that can't be hand waved as "the wheel weaves" Robert Jordan was the master at building tension to a crescendo, the battle of Emonds Field does that, in the how many pages of book that BS wrote he didn't once hit an emotional beat like that, instead we got forced moments that where meant to feel emotional but just fell flat. 

[Sabio]

I don't always agree with Brandon, but I think he was spot on with most of what he had to say in the video.  Especially all the added drama stuff like Moirianes family (while cool) stole the time for the important character building stuff.  It's what season 1 suffered with, a whole episode of getting us involved in a warder to have him die at the end, it was interesting, but the cost was building the main people to get the audience interested and to care about them.  

 

But I think he was pretty spot on with what was good and weak about the season and episode.  

 

Not to mention they all agree the series needs more episodes.  Amazon is sabotaging the series by keeping it 8.  Assuming the show spent the extra time in the right places, 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sabio

[Gothic Flame]

23 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Mat was not a part of Altaran culture. 

When in Rome...

[Pumbaa]

Give the sword to Egwene, we do not need Rand in Falme at all, he is useless... 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:11 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. But also, HE NEVER SAID HE DIDN’T LIKE THE SHOW. 
 

Criticism is not condemnation.

 

I agree with you he was very fair to the show.  

 

I haven't fully finished the episode (about 3/4 of the way through) as it is kind of hard to watch 3 guys watching a show that isn't on screen and I don't have much in the way of free time. 

 

From what I have seen Brandon was very respectful of the show and even pointed out where he thought it did better than the books.  Even the ones he wrote.  

 

What he did do however is correctly point out that the writers went for "cool factor" over story and coherent plot.  He mentions many times where he tried to tell them not to do things because fans won't like it, or that it didn't make sense, but was ignored.  That is what all of us would do if we were in his place.

 

I'm actually even more impressed with him after this show as he could have easily went full melt down on them for ignoring his advice since not only did he write 3 of the books and was a huge super fan, but is probably THE most popular current fantasy writer of today.  His skill and experience is much greater than any writer on the show and maybe all of them combined.  (For an example watch "The Sword and Pen Reflections" video on S2E1 and trying to figure out Moraine and the Fades.  questionable writing, bad editing and directing all around)   

 

General question to the thread: Imagine if you were trying to mentor a bunch of new people  in wherever you work and saw them making questionable choices on a project related to one you once were in charge of and successfully finished.  You being very established in your profession and have direct and relevant knowledge of the project offer them advice when you seem the going towards a trouble spot.  Their response is: "no thanks we are good."  How would you respond?  

 

Most people I know with that much experience and skill would respond much more negatively than Brandon did.  

 

 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:38 AM, trw1972 said:

 

I dread to think how many times i read the series. I was obsessed when young - i read the first book in 1992 and like many people i would re-read every previous book when a new book came out. 

 

It is a different experience as a middle aged man to be honest and yes i think its a common criticism of RJ, his writing of female characters.

 

Despite that, they do have their moments to shine, i loved the golden crane scene for example, and although i spent much of the series finding Egwene a bit annoying .. her final scenes definitely hit me.

 

Haven't read through them that many times, but I am listening to the audio books now which are fun.  Definitely picking up a lot more and being 20+ years after my first readthrough as a kid.  I'm thinking the lack of plot advancement in books 7+ won't hit me as hard as my early 20s.  I rage quit ISOIAF too on book 4 when they introduced Asha as the 1000th non-useful POV character.  Picked it back up later on audio books and while not as good as books 1-3 books 4-5 did have decent lore.

 

Hopefully being older and having more patience will serve me well like it did you.   Now having a wife and kids I can see how his writing of female characters is a bit repetitive, but I don't think it rises to the point of bad, or book breaking.  They still stand out as unique and nuanced.  I think some of the criticism of Jordan over that an other things is overblown.  

[Max Delpo]

On 10/18/2023 at 4:45 PM, Samt said:

Lots of things that Liandrin and Moraine say in season 1 seem intentionally written to be vague on the subject of the Saidin/Saidar dichotomy when there doesn't seem to be an in universe reason for them to do so (unless the show Aes Sedai actually themselves don't understand).  This really isn't a particularly complicated idea that requires exposition.  Men and women channel differently.  That's all that the casual viewer needs to know and it would have fit organically into the story at lots of points.  

 

This vagueness is also what leads lots of book viewers to suspect that maybe they are changing something.  It would have been simple and straightforward to establish that nothing has changed and it would have made the show easier to understand (both for book readers and non).  The decision to not do this raises questions as to the intention.  

 

In ep1s1 cold open (literally the beginning) Liandrin said: "When you touch the source, you make it filthy. That power is for the woman, the woman alone"

For the watchers there is clearly just one source, till now

 

----

 

Reading a lot of post here about BS works make me feel like a black sheep. My second preferred book for the entire series after Shadow Rising is Gathering Storm. I barely survived after Crossroads of twlilight. The first BS Book got me enterely hooked again.

I disliked (hated) the Epilogue and some Mat's chapter but, a part from that, it was great.