Rands power growth, and why it should not match the books

[Scarloc99]

People on here are upset it seems that Rand in season 2 is not as powerful with the power as Rand in books 2 and 3. They seem to want him to be super syan, killing trollocs with a thought, annihilating armies at tarwins gap and being all powerful. 

 

The thing is, Robert jordan made a mistake in books 1-3, a mistake he spent a long time rectifying in the following books. his mistake was not of his own doing, it was forced on him by the writing process. It is a mistake that many writers have discovered if they don't have a full story mapped out start to end. I call it the Matrix effect. 

 

When he started out he hoped he had a trilogy. A story to tell over a 3 act arc, so, at the end of book 1 his main character gets a major power boost, all on his own, he destroys an army, because at this point RJ didn't even know if he had a second book. 

 

Then he has books 2 and 3 greenlit and so he carries on his oddesy, Rands powers increase, exponentially, he deals with threats with a thought, he teaches himself powers without knowing how and he becomes more and more all powerful meaning he can now take out god level beings (forsaken) on his own. 

 

Then, the best and worst thing happens he is given the chance to turn this into a multi book odyssey, but, he has a problem, his main character is at this point so overpowered in relation to the world around him that he really doesn't need anyone. he has come on in his power far faster then he should have done. Especially in relation to the other main characters around him, and, how will he find himself against threats that are really dangerous when he is so powerful all on his own. 

 

So Robert Jordan removes Rands power, the immense powers he showed in books 1 and 2 are put down to the madness, LTT in his head, or just things he can't possibly remember to do again. He is sent to the 3 fold land where his, by now, stupidly good sword fighting skills are worthless and he needs to learn to fight a different way, at the same time Matt, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve are sent on there own arcs to power them up to meet rand as he comes back down, trying to reach a point where they are all fairly equal, in different ways. 

 

I call this the matrix problem because at the end of movie 1 there is a problem, Neo is all knowing, all powerful, he is unbeatable in the Matrix, can shape it to his very will. By the time of the second movie (at least the concept as I have heard it, to my mind films 2 and 3 of the matrix are in the same place as seasons 6,7 and 8 of GOT, a thought experiment that thankfully never happened lol), Neo needs to either be de powerd, or, a threat even greater needs to be created, something that he can't fight against, that is both Agent smith, and, a crazy unintelligable plotline about architecture and load bearing structures or something. but on a serious note it is a problem with storytelling in an episodic format where you don't map out and clearly define the plot across the whole and instead have some viague idea but fill in the details book to book. 

 

So how does this impact the TV show, well, Rafe and co can, and are, fix that glaring mistake of Robert Jordans, they can ensure that Rand develops his powers in a linear and not up and down, they can show him slowly coming to grips with things in a logical way. At the end of season 2 an unshielded rand, untrained, raw, deals with Ishy far easier then Egwene, Rafe shows in that scene how powerful he is, just a few scenes before Rand ganked a load of soldiers without a seconds thought, when the most we have seen Egwene do is have a very powerful fart (sorry schoolboy humour). 

 

So no Rand is not godlike in his powers, but, that is a good thing, that is good episodic writing, if, when writing the first line of EOTW RJ had known, I have 14 books minimum to finish this in and my editor does not want a copy of the Fellowship, I think we would have had a very very very different books 1,2 and 3. and a very different, much slower, Rand journey. It is why I say WOT starts with book 4, books 1 2 and 3 where just RJ practicing, and, it is why stating that Rafe and co "Don't know the books because they have done this and that" is, in my opinion, showing that you are looking at the individual books in isolation, when that is the mistake, you have to look at the whole and, you have to look at the reality behind the writing process and how it impacted character development in a bad way. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Gypsum]

As a kind of related digression to what you're saying, the way the show portrays different channelers' strengths is subtle and cool. Moiraine and Alanna and the other Aes Sedai -- including Egwene and Elayne -- seem to be working hard at channeling, concentrating and sweating and making lots of hand gestures. Whereas the Forsaken and Rand (the latter primarily in the last episode) are super casual about it. They shrug their shoulders, flick a couple fingers, and sh1t explodes.

 

It stood out for me when Rand took out Turok. I think it showed a glimpse of the power he was capable of. He kind of went, "eh," and knocked out half a dozen elite soldiers (with the last guy killing himself) in a second. Much like the Forsaken. Both Ishamael and Lanfear channel in a very low effort way. Rand can't do as much as they can -- not yet anyway -- being untrained, but he still makes it look effortless when he does. The body language that all the actors show when they're channeling conveys a lot. And I think it's deliberate on the part of the cast and the directors.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Gypsum

[EmreY]

Indeed.  In S3, I almost expect this of Moiraine when channelling:

 

 

 

 

[grayavatar]

Rand does go super saiyan at Tarwin's Gap because he is using a well of Saidin called The Eye Of The World. It temporarily gives him incredible power which allows him to instinctively do what needs to be done. In the end he barely remembers half of what he was able to do. This was prepared for him along with the Dragon Banner by ancient Aes Sedai and makes for a far more interesting story. The dragon banner could have been used to tie the events of season one with season 2

 

What is Egwene and Nynaeve's excuse for going super saiyan? Linking with a couple of low power women that weren't accpeted to the tower??

 

Killing Turak with the power was a copout, weak and boring compared to what it could have been. Rand SHOULD be using the sword to fight at this stage precisely because he hasn't mastered channeling yet.

 

One big problem with this show is that it lacks progression of the characters. Everyone has been aged up and acts more like the confident characters at the end of the books rather than the scared Emond's fielders from the beginnings of the books.

 

It's like someone read the books and then went and wrote the show based on the characters as they last remembered them.

 

Rands power progression is using flame & void for bow and then sword, then fire sword, fireballs and lightning outside Cairhien and later due to Lews Therin memories, balefire, death gates and (i think they were called) fire blossoms and then even more advanced stuff . The Eye of the World should be treated as an anomaly,

 

Regardless of Rand's power levels this show will always choose the shortest path to skipping diminishing and supressing cool scenes. I think it thinks some scenes are cool, like Rand's mother being a "badass" but a woman taking on even one trained soldier while she is in labor is silly. Tarwin's gap was cringe. The fight inside Falme was very generic. The Aes Sedai politics were boring and childish. The warder drama was inconsequential. The fight on top of the tower was a writer believing they were clever but instead gave us something mundane to stare at...

 

The books were not just popular because of the story but for cool concepts, ideas and themes that have been scrapped or diminished in the show.

 

All that's left is just boring slow rubbish for 2 seasons.

[EmreY]

2 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Killing Turak with the power was a copout, weak and boring compared to what it could have been. Rand SHOULD be using the sword to fight at this stage precisely because he hasn't mastered channeling yet.

 

I disagree.  However, it would have been nice for Rand to come into the courtyard with his sword drawn.

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Rand does go super saiyan at Tarwin's Gap because he is using a well of Saidin called The Eye Of The World. It temporarily gives him incredible power which allows him to instinctively do what needs to be done.

How on earth do you convey the lore of this scene in an intelligible way on tv?

 

2 hours ago, grayavatar said:

This was prepared for him along with the Dragon Banner by ancient Aes Sedai and makes for a far more interesting story.

Or this? 
 

 

2 hours ago, grayavatar said:

One big problem with this show is that it lacks progression of the characters.

But that’s not true. Each of the main characters have progressed from where they started:

 

Rand has gone from content shepherd to accepting that he is the Dragon Reborn. From fearing the one power to using it to kill.  

Perrin has become a Wolfbrother and is struggling to understand his relationship to violence. 

 

Mat went from abandoning his friends to fighting for them. 
 

Egwene has learned to use the One Power and learned how to take punishment. 
 

Nynaeve is gone from superwoman to a woman who can’t even manage to channel to heal her friend. 
 

The show, for better or worse, is focused on the emotional journey of these characters and how they grow into the people who fight the Last Battle. 

[Mirefox]

TLDR:  Robert Jordan didn’t know what he was doing; Rafe Judkins can fix it.🙄

[Skipp]

14 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

TLDR:  Robert Jordan didn’t know what he was doing; Rafe Judkins can fix it.🙄

Or Robert Jordan did not write the character arcs for television and Rafe changing them to that end.

[DaddyFinn]

Just stop with the "Rafe thinks he's a better writer than Robert Jordan". It's not the case and never has been.

[Mirefox]

20 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Just stop with the "Rafe thinks he's a better writer than Robert Jordan". It's not the case and never has been.

People here act like he is.  

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Mirefox said:

People here act like he is.  

No. The people you refer to recognize that Rafe Judkins is creating a television show and that Robert Jordan was writing novels and that those are two different things.

 

Those people also recognize that Jordan did not set out to write a 12 (later 14) volume magnum opus, but originally wrote a single novel which the publisher then extended to a trilogy and that the trilogy later developed into the multi-volume epic that we have now.

 

Because of that, these people recognize that certain things about the early books can be restructured to make for more linear development of the main characters. These people understand (or hope anyway) that Rafe is making the changes he is making in service of that restructured narrative.

[Mirefox]

7 hours ago, EmreY said:

Indeed.  In S3, I almost expect this of Moiraine when channelling:

 

 

 

 

The Rafe Judkins apologists in here trying to explain why he’s actually respecting Jordan’s work.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

The Rafe Judkins apologists in here trying to explain why he’s actually respecting Jordan’s work.

We are strong and have amazing balance? Thanks!

[Ralph]

Question: (maybe should be a poll) 

 

Did you

1) expect Rafe to distort the story based on his misandrist and otherwise revolting (maybe even woke) views, and have been pleasantly surprised to discover that he has not done so? 

2) not expect so, but have been distressed to discover that he has? 

or 3) is every person who thinks one way or the other following exactly and only their preconceived expectation based on their understanding of Rafe's statements before S1 aired? 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Ralph

[fearbrog]

On 10/11/2023 at 2:32 AM, Scarloc99 said:

when the most we have seen Egwene do is have a very powerful fart (sorry schoolboy humour). 

Egg literally healed almost dead Nynaeve without any training. No COVID is not excuse, they could change by switching Nyn and Egg, by not changing rules of circle or by not taking away Rand's scene.

Edited October 12, 2023 by fearbrog

[king of nowhere]

it's a pity that this thread got derailed.

 

then again, there's not much else to be said, the first post was great and not much to add.

 

I wonder if using the sword will be even part of rand in the show? I mean, what does change about rand if he never learns the sword? everything he accomplish with the sword, he could do with the power, or could be skipped. even bashere calls him on it, saying learning the sword for him is silly, at best it's a personal pasttime.

the only time rand actually needs the sword is in far madding. which happens in the slog, and so can be cut entirely even according to show detractors 😛. or, even if it was not cut, he could get lan or aviendha or a team of aiel to do the fighting for him. or he could not learn the sword and still learn aiel martial arts.

if rand stopped using the sword entirely in this version of the wheel, I don't think the story would suffer in any way.

 

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Egg literally healed almost dead Nynaeve without any training. No COVID is not excuse, they could change by switching Nyn and Egg, by not changing rules of circle or by not taking away Rand's scene.

Rafe confirmed the Eg used natural medicine and not the power here. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

it's a pity that this thread got derailed.

 

then again, there's not much else to be said, the first post was great and not much to add.

 

I wonder if using the sword will be even part of rand in the show? I mean, what does change about rand if he never learns the sword? everything he accomplish with the sword, he could do with the power, or could be skipped. even bashere calls him on it, saying learning the sword for him is silly, at best it's a personal pasttime.

the only time rand actually needs the sword is in far madding. which happens in the slog, and so can be cut entirely even according to show detractors 😛. or, even if it was not cut, he could get lan or aviendha or a team of aiel to do the fighting for him. or he could not learn the sword and still learn aiel martial arts.

if rand stopped using the sword entirely in this version of the wheel, I don't think the story would suffer in any way.

 

Thankyou first of all for the comment on my original post

And as we know, if the show follows the books then by season 7 Rand will be pretty much armless 😉 (too soon) and have to learn to fight all over again. 

 

 

[fearbrog]

28 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Rafe confirmed the Eg used natural medicine and not the power here. 

Did we watch the same scene or did Amazon have 2 versions they showed beyond new ending? Because we literally see Egg crying and weave coming out of her and Nynaeve returns to life

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

Did we watch the same scene or did Amazon have 2 versions they showed beyond new ending? Because we literally see Egg crying and weave coming out of her and Nynaeve returns to life

@Scarloc99's referencing the scene that was originally written pre-covid. The scene we got was shot post-covid.

Also, Nynaeve was not dead. Her eyes weren't "burnt out" like the others. She was "crispy" compared to the others "charred".  You might have to turn up your brightness to see the difference.

[fearbrog]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

@Scarloc99's referencing the scene that was originally written pre-covid. The scene we got was shot post-covid.

Also, Nynaeve was not dead. Her eyes weren't "burnt out" like the others. She was "crispy" compared to the others "charred".  You might have to turn up your brightness to see the difference.

But written scene doesn't matter. We may argue Rand destroyed trollocs because RJ originally wrote this ending pre-show, but in show canon Egwene heals "crispy" Nynaeve with One Power, not herbs.

 

Also if Nyn was just one step from death it's still probably biggest example of healing aside from Nyn's healing of madness and stilling or combined efforts from Asha'man and Aes Sedai to heal Rand

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

But written scene doesn't matter. We may argue Rand destroyed trollocs because RJ originally wrote this ending pre-show, but in show canon Egwene heals "crispy" Nynaeve with One Power, not herbs.

 

Also if Nyn was just one step from death it's still probably biggest example of healing aside from Nyn's healing of madness and stilling or combined efforts from Asha'man and Aes Sedai to heal Rand

This and the plot hole with the dagger is why it’s just best to treat 108 like it never happened. 
 

Aside from that episode, the show holds up quite well. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

But written scene doesn't matter. We may argue Rand destroyed trollocs because RJ originally wrote this ending pre-show, but in show canon Egwene heals "crispy" Nynaeve with One Power, not herbs.

 

Also if Nyn was just one step from death it's still probably biggest example of healing aside from Nyn's healing of madness and stilling or combined efforts from Asha'man and Aes Sedai to heal Rand

Sorry I chose my words poorly, yes, the scene is bad, Rafe has accepted the scene is bad, you know what when a writer holds his hands up and says “we got that wrong? This is the reason we got the wrong”, then I am inclined to accept that because mainly, I can’t think of any other tv show ever where a show runner has done this. 

[Scarloc99]

59 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This and the plot hole with the dagger is why it’s just best to treat 108 like it never happened. 
 

Aside from that episode, the show holds up quite well. 

I mean the episode is ok if you just ignore these 2 things rather than the whole episode. 

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it's a pity that this thread got derailed.

 

then again, there's not much else to be said, the first post was great and not much to add.

 

I wonder if using the sword will be even part of rand in the show? I mean, what does change about rand if he never learns the sword? everything he accomplish with the sword, he could do with the power, or could be skipped. even bashere calls him on it, saying learning the sword for him is silly, at best it's a personal pasttime.

the only time rand actually needs the sword is in far madding. which happens in the slog, and so can be cut entirely even according to show detractors 😛. or, even if it was not cut, he could get lan or aviendha or a team of aiel to do the fighting for him. or he could not learn the sword and still learn aiel martial arts.

if rand stopped using the sword entirely in this version of the wheel, I don't think the story would suffer in any way.

 

 

we have strong inferences he will in s3