Warning Book Spoilers:- Where the tv show might go given all we know about the character arcs.

[Finnssss22]

4 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Okay, now that I’ve had time to digest where we are now, and inspired by the LOTR discussion in another thread to look at the rate of adaptation, here’s what I think we’re faced with:

 

TLDR: We’re about to lose fully ½ of the content of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time.

 

Based on my book versions:

Page Count: (529 + 442+ 378 = 1349 pages for LOTR) and (657+ 577+ 577 = 1811 for EOTW, GH, TDR)

Run time (12 hours for LOTR extended, 16 for WoT)

We were at 1.874 pages per minute for LOTR and are at 1.886 pages per minute for WoT, which is close, and can be used to project.

At that rate, adapting WoT's 10,173 pages would require 90 hours of television in total, of which we’ve already got 16.  But we’ve only got 48 hours left.

So, assuming 48 remaining hours of TV, they need to lose 2,929 pages of content, or about 5 entire books, without ANY additions to fit everything in.

 

But if you add more Rafe created stuff in, you have to lose more. Let’s say they add an hour of fresh content per season, which means they need to lose another 679 pages of Jordan / Sanderson content – another book – from the run of the series.

 

So now we come to the tough question - how to lose 6 books worth of material:

 

Easy Cuts – the slog main plots – plot points must happen, but don’t need to take long:

Faile’s kidnapping

Mat with Tylin and Tuon

Egwene at Salidar

 

Easy Cuts – side plots - can lose without impacting character arcs or plot

Sea Folk and the Bowl of the Winds (substitute Callandor / Male A’dam)

Shara (substitute Black Tower corruption)
Far Madding

Be’lal, Bathamel, Aginor

Elayne and Nynaeve with the Circus

Morgase’s Journey

Thom Merrilin (Lan protects the cave)

Aran’gar / Osan’gar (hard, confusing, and politically sensitive)

 

Medium Cuts – the Forsaken plot consolidation:

Rahvin in Camelyn + Sammael in Illian (only getting 1)

Demandred in Shara and Taim with the Black Tower (only getting 1)

Mesaana in the Tower or Semirhage with the Seanchan (only one’s in the show, but which one?)

 

Medium Cuts – can remove, but need to consider implication:

The Kin storyline in Tanchico (need 1 non-Aes Sedai Channelling society, and someone for Nyn / Elayne to interact with looking for the MacGuffin)

Berelain / Faile (Faile deals with the ghost of a dead wife)

The Red Veils (I think the Shadow needs human soldiers)

Any non-trolloc monsters (Draghkar, Grolm, Raken) (too much SFX budget)

Tear or Illian (keep 1 - Rand needs a non-Aiel army beyond Cairhien)

Galad (would need Dain to forgive Perrin)

Birgitte (important to Nyn and Elayne’s character development)

 

Hard Cuts – material re-writes to major plot points required:

Siuan / Leanne / Logain’s journey to Salidar (stilling, healing, redemption, and politics)

The Aelfinn / Elfinn / Tower of Genji (Mat, getting Moiraine back)

Moiridin / Cyndane (they need at least one soul switch before the end)

The Borderlands Compulsion arc (become the King you were born to be, Mat assumes command)

The Camelyn Civil War (swap the balefire end of FoH for the end of the Civil War)

Egeanin (to show Seanchan aren’t all evil)

 

For those of us who enjoy the political machinations, or complex world building, or even nuance, we can forget it. The Axeman cometh...

 

Not how it works. Not even remotely. 

RJ liked describing things in detail and took up a lot of pages.

The show can encompass pages and pages of description in seconds on screen.

Dialog also isn't an issue as the books are not what would be considered heavy dialog from a screen writer's perspective. 

The issue going from PoV to 3rd person information delivery. 

The books could deliver mountains of information on history, character/world background, prophesies and attitudes quite easily in multiple pages of internal dialogs. 

The show has to deliver it through straight up dialog most of the time.

Dialog just in general eats the most screen time by far and now you're adding even more.

 

Regardless a simple page count is not going to get any meaningful results.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Jaysen Gore]

5 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Not how it works. Not even remotely. 

RJ liked describing things in detail and took up a lot of pages.

The show can encompass pages and pages of description in seconds on screen.

Dialog also isn't an issue as the books are not what would be considered heavy dialog from a screen writer's perspective. 

The issue going from PoV to 3rd person information delivery. 

The books could deliver mountains of information on history, character/world background, prophesies and attitudes quite easily in multiple pages.

The show has to deliver it through straight up dialog most of the time.

Dialog just in general eats the most screen time by far and now you're adding even more.

 

Regardless a simple page count is not going to get any meaningful results.

All of what you say is true, and were arguments discussed before the series started. But now, we have 2 seasons of actual evidence of Rafe's approach to adaptation and the depth of cuts. And its comparable to the usual measuring stick of fantasy adaptation (with similar artists' writing style, even)

 

The showrunners have already cut almost 1/3 of the covered plot content in the first two seasons, while adding maybe an hour of content not in the 14 main books per season. So maybe it's not 6 whole books worth of content, maybe it's only 3 or 4 more.  But more major cuts HAVE to be made. And the slog by itself isn't enough

 

[Finnssss22]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

All of what you say is true, and were arguments discussed before the series started. But now, we have 2 seasons of actual evidence of Rafe's approach to adaptation and the depth of cuts. And its comparable to the usual measuring stick of fantasy adaptation (with similar artists' writing style, even)

 

The showrunners have already cut almost 1/3 of the covered plot content in the first two seasons, while adding maybe an hour of content not in the 14 main books per season. So maybe it's not 6 whole books worth of content, maybe it's only 3 or 4 more.  But more major cuts HAVE to be made. And the slog by itself isn't enough

 

 

Right but season 1 had a ton extra information dialog to pack in.

Season 2 was stated flatout would involve books 2 and 3. That they weren't going to rehash more chasing.

Season 3 is mostly going to be book 4.

Looking ahead I see no issue condensing the vast majority of the lull or as it's called now, the slog.

It wouldn't shock or pain me in the least to see books 7-11 mostly covered in 2 seasons with the majority of it being carried by book 7, the last half of 9 and a good chunk from 11.

Books 4 and 6 will be the hardest to condense by far imo.

 

As I said before S2 was a marked improvement over S1 but S3 will make or break it.

 

Your formula is flawed simply on the premise that all the pages have the same value and that's not remotely true.

The value of a page from books 4-6 are many times the value of a page from books 7-10.

 

My best educated guess for 8 seasons is something along the lines of...

S1 book 1+NS

S2 books 2+3

S3 book 4

S4 books 5+6

S5 and S6 books 7-11

S7 and S8 books 12-14

Edited October 14, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Okay, now that I’ve had time to digest where we are now, and inspired by the LOTR discussion in another thread to look at the rate of adaptation, here’s what I think we’re faced with:

 

TLDR: We’re about to lose fully ½ of the content of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time.

 

Based on my book versions:

Page Count: (529 + 442+ 378 = 1349 pages for LOTR) and (657+ 577+ 577 = 1811 for EOTW, GH, TDR)

Run time (12 hours for LOTR extended, 16 for WoT)

We were at 1.874 pages per minute for LOTR and are at 1.886 pages per minute for WoT, which is close, and can be used to project.

At that rate, adapting WoT's 10,173 pages would require 90 hours of television in total, of which we’ve already got 16.  But we’ve only got 48 hours left.

So, assuming 48 remaining hours of TV, they need to lose 2,929 pages of content, or about 5 entire books, without ANY additions to fit everything in.

 

But if you add more Rafe created stuff in, you have to lose more. Let’s say they add an hour of fresh content per season, which means they need to lose another 679 pages of Jordan / Sanderson content – another book – from the run of the series.

 

So now we come to the tough question - how to lose 6 books worth of material:

 

Easy Cuts – the slog main plots – plot points must happen, but don’t need to take long:

Faile’s kidnapping

Mat with Tylin and Tuon

Egwene at Salidar

 

Easy Cuts – side plots - can lose without impacting character arcs or plot

Sea Folk and the Bowl of the Winds (substitute Callandor / Male A’dam)

Shara (substitute Black Tower corruption)
Far Madding

Be’lal, Bathamel, Aginor

Elayne and Nynaeve with the Circus

Morgase’s Journey

Thom Merrilin (Lan protects the cave)

Aran’gar / Osan’gar (hard, confusing, and politically sensitive)

 

Medium Cuts – the Forsaken plot consolidation:

Rahvin in Camelyn + Sammael in Illian (only getting 1)

Demandred in Shara and Taim with the Black Tower (only getting 1)

Mesaana in the Tower or Semirhage with the Seanchan (only one’s in the show, but which one?)

 

Medium Cuts – can remove, but need to consider implication:

The Kin storyline in Tanchico (need 1 non-Aes Sedai Channelling society, and someone for Nyn / Elayne to interact with looking for the MacGuffin)

Berelain / Faile (Faile deals with the ghost of a dead wife)

The Red Veils (I think the Shadow needs human soldiers)

Any non-trolloc monsters (Draghkar, Grolm, Raken) (too much SFX budget)

Tear or Illian (keep 1 - Rand needs a non-Aiel army beyond Cairhien)

Galad (would need Dain to forgive Perrin)

Birgitte (important to Nyn and Elayne’s character development)

 

Hard Cuts – material re-writes to major plot points required:

Siuan / Leanne / Logain’s journey to Salidar (stilling, healing, redemption, and politics)

The Aelfinn / Elfinn / Tower of Genji (Mat, getting Moiraine back)

Moiridin / Cyndane (they need at least one soul switch before the end)

The Borderlands Compulsion arc (become the King you were born to be, Mat assumes command)

The Camelyn Civil War (swap the balefire end of FoH for the end of the Civil War)

Egeanin (to show Seanchan aren’t all evil)

 

For those of us who enjoy the political machinations, or complex world building, or even nuance, we can forget it. The Axeman cometh...

I like these kind of numbers but I think you have to look at it slightly differently, you are comparing the telling of an entire story end to end (LOTR) to what is really just the opening chapter (WOT). 

I always consider the books up the the end of the battle of tear to equate the start of Fellowship up to the forming of the Fellowship itself in Rivendell. Finally at Tear we have a declared Dragon reborn, we have Matt and Perrin fully into the beginning arcs of abilities and skills (Perrin dream walking, Matt luck), the girls are firmly in place with there story, no more back and forth to the white tower for them, and so the adventure proper starts from book 4. Books 1-3 are really a prologue, in part because while writing them RJ didn't know what story he was writing, was it a one book thing, a trilogy, 4 books long. 

 

I also disagree that "adding stuff in" is leading to stuff being taken away, I think in reality Rafe is looking at the story as a whole, much like Peter Jackson did, and asking himself, "what has no relevance to the last battle and the EF5 journey to that point". The bowl of the winds is one of these, all the anciliary politics is another (I agree I love it, but we won't get it). 

 

Now when that fat is all cut off the meat of the real story needing to be told we lose stuff, lore, history, and so Rafe then creates scenes to allow that stuff to be added back in in a new format, he looks for threads across maybe 5-6 storylines and then tries to weave them into a succinct self contained thread for the TV show to get across that point clearly. Stepin was one of these, the Stepin arc is actually only on our screens for about 5-6 minutes but he is a plot reason to allow the characters to get to Tar Valon, to show the politics of the white tower, to get Logain into the show much earlier, to introduce us to Liandrin, and expose the viewer to aspects of the world we never see in book 1 but that are absolutely key to the story as a whole. That now means that those "scenes" that we get later on in the books explaining all of this are no longer needed so freeing up time later on that can be used for other things. 

 

In season 2 Moiraine was needed, first of all because she is not in book 2 but the audience needs to stay invested in her so the emotonal hit of what happens to her later really hits. The bond thing was important because again it is key not just to Lan's arc, but also to Rand and the last battle, so we have seen what happens when the bond is lost because of death, and the difference if the bond is removed (I think in season 1 Moiraine un bonded Lan rather then shielding, in season 2 we saw her re bond him), again that will be important at the last battle. 

 

SO this equivalence of "Rafe adds a thing so we lose a thing" is wrong, Rafe ads a thing in order to ensure the audience are shown key plot and lore points. 

 

I also think one of the biggest takeaways from LOTR is that something on the page that is maybe only 10 mins of read time (battle of Helms Deep) on screen needs far far far more time to give justice to. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

<<Snips>>

 

I like these kind of numbers but I think you have to look at it slightly differently, you are comparing the telling of an entire story end to end (LOTR) to what is really just the opening chapter (WOT). 

Now when that fat is all cut off the meat of the real story needing to be told we lose stuff, lore, history, and so Rafe then creates scenes to allow that stuff to be added back in in a new format, he looks for threads across maybe 5-6 storylines and then tries to weave them into a succinct self contained thread for the TV show to get across that point clearly. 

 

In season 2 Moiraine was needed, first of all because she is not in book 2 but the audience needs to stay invested in her so the emotonal hit of what happens to her later really hits. The bond thing was important because again it is key not just to Lan's arc, but also to Rand and the last battle, so we have seen what happens when the bond is lost because of death, and the difference if the bond is removed (I think in season 1 Moiraine un bonded Lan rather then shielding, in season 2 we saw her re bond him), again that will be important at the last battle. 

 

I also think one of the biggest takeaways from LOTR is that something on the page that is maybe only 10 mins of read time (battle of Helms Deep) on screen needs far far far more time to give justice to. 

I get what you're saying, but it's all the fat that has to be cut off the bone, with only 5-6 storylines being left, before they add back some new things to try and bridge the lore that makes me thing the cuts are going to be very deep.  So yep, it's the 6 main plotlines represented by the EF5 + Elayne, and cut off almost all the side branches and tertiary characters. 

 

Your Helm's Deep comparison is also apt, because we need to find run time for the major battle set pieces involving Perrin in the Two Rivers, Mat and Couladin at Cairhien, Dumai's Wells, The War at the Tower, Tarmon Gaidon, and maybe one of Rand's battle with the Seanchan (in Arad Doman?),  Perrin with the Shaido, or the Compulsed Borderlander fights , dpeending on how big the fight at the cleansing is. Each of those would be half to most of an episode each (only minor inserts for dramatic tension) and big chunks of the seasons budgets. And I expect TG to be the last 3 episodes of the show (Tuon leaving, Egwene leaving, the Pipe). So there's almost a season worth of combat across the remaining 6 years. Because it's Helms Deep or Battle of the Bastards they'll be compared to.

 

I'm along for the ride, don't get be wrong, but I'm torn - I don't know if it's better than them to cut more entire plotlines, and leave time for the rest to breathe, or for them to try and keep as much as they can, but create a rushed, unearned feeling in their emotional payoffs.  I'll use Elaida as an example - how much screen time do you think we'll get from her as Amyrlin? 20 min? 30 min? over 4 seasons? She can do a lot, but earning her outcome is going to be very difficult. So is it just better to show her sit down as Amyrlin and not again until Egwene is captured, or should they show what's happening inside so we know Egwene is justified? Decisions decisions...

[Jaysen Gore]

17 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

<<snip>>

 

My best educated guess for 8 seasons is something along the lines of...

S1 book 1+NS

S2 books 2+3

S3 book 4

S4 books 5+6

S5 and S6 books 7-11

S7 and S8 books 12-14

Ah, this is where the difference lies, then. I expect almost all of season 8 to be used for book 14, with maybe only Genji and Veins of Gold pulled in from book 13.  In envision Season 7 ends with cliffhangers - Mat going in and Lan charging the Gap, and season 8 opening with Veins.  

 

I also don't think we get the Cairhien Docks and Dumai's Wells in the same season. They're too big emotional moments to have them too close together. So I expect the first ends season 4, and the second season 5. 

 

So with that, seasons I think seasons 6 and 7 need to cover most of books 7 through 13 - everything after Dumai's Wells up through Egwene as Amyrlin and Perrin forging the hammer. Not saying it can't be done (eradicate the Shaido at Cairhien, for example, eliminates the kidnapping entirely), but it's going to be very hard

[Finnssss22]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

 

I also don't think we get the Cairhien Docks and Dumai's Wells in the same season. They're too big emotional moments to have them too close together. So I expect the first ends season 4, and the second season 5. 

 

 

Are we getting the docks though? Kind of predicated on whether we get the Foxes and Snakes and we just don't know about that yet. Nor do we know if we're getting Rahvin.

We have 6 of the 8 Forsaken confirmed and I think we all expect #7 to be Demandred. The 8th, going by Lanfear's comments, is another male. Granted Rahvin is probably the most likely with possibly Aginor being the other choice.

No Finn's though eliminates/changes a lot of stuff.

 

The bottomline is that we simply don't know and won't till S3.

Book 4 is the beginning of the road map for the rest of the series for pretty much every character and S3 will most likely be the same. Predicting anything prior to seeing S3 is pretty tough.

 

As I keep saying, S3 will make or break the show.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I get what you're saying, but it's all the fat that has to be cut off the bone, with only 5-6 storylines being left, before they add back some new things to try and bridge the lore that makes me thing the cuts are going to be very deep.  So yep, it's the 6 main plotlines represented by the EF5 + Elayne, and cut off almost all the side branches and tertiary characters. 

 

Your Helm's Deep comparison is also apt, because we need to find run time for the major battle set pieces involving Perrin in the Two Rivers, Mat and Couladin at Cairhien, Dumai's Wells, The War at the Tower, Tarmon Gaidon, and maybe one of Rand's battle with the Seanchan (in Arad Doman?),  Perrin with the Shaido, or the Compulsed Borderlander fights , dpeending on how big the fight at the cleansing is. Each of those would be half to most of an episode each (only minor inserts for dramatic tension) and big chunks of the seasons budgets. And I expect TG to be the last 3 episodes of the show (Tuon leaving, Egwene leaving, the Pipe). So there's almost a season worth of combat across the remaining 6 years. Because it's Helms Deep or Battle of the Bastards they'll be compared to.

 

I'm along for the ride, don't get be wrong, but I'm torn - I don't know if it's better than them to cut more entire plotlines, and leave time for the rest to breathe, or for them to try and keep as much as they can, but create a rushed, unearned feeling in their emotional payoffs.  I'll use Elaida as an example - how much screen time do you think we'll get from her as Amyrlin? 20 min? 30 min? over 4 seasons? She can do a lot, but earning her outcome is going to be very difficult. So is it just better to show her sit down as Amyrlin and not again until Egwene is captured, or should they show what's happening inside so we know Egwene is justified? Decisions decisions...

I loved season 2 but at this moment in time am not convinced we will have anything to match the quality of battle of the bastards, or the battle of Hardhome (for me one of the best battle scenes in GOT for how it just kept that dead man walking tension). 
 

The writers and directors seem to be wanting to represent large battles with small scale fights and that just doesn’t show the scale of the large battles we will have coming up. Rafe needs the budget, and directors who can plan and shoot large scale battles. 

[Elder_Haman]

38 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

and directors who can plan and shoot large scale battles.

Ciaran Donnelly has 4 episodes in S3 I believe. He’s great with action sequences. 

[Finnssss22]

What I want/expect in S3 is 3 main lines.

Two Rivers defense 

Aiel waste/glass columns/Asmo capture 

Tanchico 

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

Are we getting the docks though?

I think we get a version of it in the season finale.

My outline is something like this:

 

Group One:

Rand, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene --> to the Waste. Rand meets Asmo and trains with the power. Trains on the sword with Lan. Tension generated by Lanfear being there, unknown to Rand. (Two actresses so audience knows a bunch that Rand & Co. do not.) Rand hooks up with Avi. Season ends with Rand returning from Rhuidean.

 

Egwene trains with the Wise Ones --> the vehicle to learn about Aiel culture, prophecies, and history.

 

Moiraine --> focused on prophecy. Figures out who Lanfear is and saves him from Lanfear's jealousy in the final episode by tackling her into the door. (This may require some major changes to how Rhuidean works).

 

Group Two:

Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin --> to Camelyn on their way to the Two Rivers. Perrin splits away (wolf stuff) and heads directly home. Mat gets lost in Camelyn and manages to find his way to the Finn. 

 

First half of the season --> vehicle for learning about Andoran politics, Elaida, Morgase and the rest of the family. Introduction of a male Forsaken. Elayne and Nyn leave for Tanchico mid-season. Find Callandor (replacing BotW) at the end of the season. 

 

Perrin gets to the Two Rivers, finds it much changed. Trolloc assaults. Dain and Perrin become uneasy allies. Battle of the Two Rivers is the big finale.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’m going off current topic here…but relating to the initial topic of the thread, in terms of what we as book readers have experienced from the characters and their book arcs, I’ve been wondering about how/if any of the changes might impact their show characters. For example, Egwene. She killed a person willingly and deliberately. Yes, it was her torturous captor, and it can be understood why she did it, but in the books I don’t recall any situation that can be compared to this. I may be mistaken due to my terrible memory, but nothing comes to mind at the moment of a time when she decided to kill someone when she could have chosen otherwise. I’m of the opinion that the experience of choosing to take a life would change any person fundamentally, aside from sociopaths or psychopaths. Rand and Perrin and mat in the books killed their share of people and had clear reasons why they had to do it, but they were never comfortable with it no matter what extenuating circumstances were present. Will the character of egwene in the show be fundamentally changed by this decision, haunted and changed by it, similar to how the boys in the books and somewhat even in the show so far have struggled with becoming killers? Or was her apparent cold resolve in the moment on screen indicative of her future arc? IMO if so, her show character would feel very different from her book character. Not saying it’s right or wrong or better or worse, just different. 

[Yamezt]

9 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

but nothing comes to mind at the moment of a time when she decided to kill someone when she could have chosen otherwise.

Egwene has killed quite a bit in the books but the one that sticks out in my mind is Egwene killing Raken in hopes that she deny the Seanchan any access to a sister who knows gateway even if she kills them. And she probably thought she was doing those sisters a favour to prevent them from experiencing torture. Understandable that there was a strategic risk losing gateway but doesn't make it any colder a decision to kill her own people. 

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Egwene has killed quite a bit in the books but the one that sticks out in my mind is Egwene killing Raken in hopes that she deny the Seanchan any access to a sister who knows gateway even if she kills them. And she probably thought she was doing those sisters a favour to prevent them from experiencing torture. Understandable that there was a strategic risk losing gateway but doesn't make it any colder a decision to kill her own people. 

 

still a difference between military strategy and pure revenge

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

23 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Egwene has killed quite a bit in the books but the one that sticks out in my mind is Egwene killing Raken in hopes that she deny the Seanchan any access to a sister who knows gateway even if she kills them. And she probably thought she was doing those sisters a favour to prevent them from experiencing torture. Understandable that there was a strategic risk losing gateway but doesn't make it any colder a decision to kill her own people. 

I hear you but I guess my thought process was based on intent. The subject of killing others and how it affects the killer is very poignant in the books. Killing to maintain strategic advantage, in self defense/defense of others or even believing it’s a form of mercy or for the greater good can all be used as justification within the psyche of the one doing the killing. However, for our characters like Rand and mat and Perrin the heavy burden of taking a life for any reason at all weighs heavily and persistently on their minds. So I guess I was approaching it from that angle. In the scene it appears that egwene possessed cold resolve in her action but I wonder if this will have any affect on her character in the show moving forward, one way or another. 

[fra85uk]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:08 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think we get a version of it in the season finale.

My outline is something like this:

 

Group One:

Rand, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene --> to the Waste. Rand meets Asmo and trains with the power. Trains on the sword with Lan. Tension generated by Lanfear being there, unknown to Rand. (Two actresses so audience knows a bunch that Rand & Co. do not.) Rand hooks up with Avi. Season ends with Rand returning from Rhuidean.

 

Egwene trains with the Wise Ones --> the vehicle to learn about Aiel culture, prophecies, and history.

 

Moiraine --> focused on prophecy. Figures out who Lanfear is and saves him from Lanfear's jealousy in the final episode by tackling her into the door. (This may require some major changes to how Rhuidean works).

 

Group Two:

Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin --> to Camelyn on their way to the Two Rivers. Perrin splits away (wolf stuff) and heads directly home. Mat gets lost in Camelyn and manages to find his way to the Finn. 

 

First half of the season --> vehicle for learning about Andoran politics, Elaida, Morgase and the rest of the family. Introduction of a male Forsaken. Elayne and Nyn leave for Tanchico mid-season. Find Callandor (replacing BotW) at the end of the season. 

 

Perrin gets to the Two Rivers, finds it much changed. Trolloc assaults. Dain and Perrin become uneasy allies. Battle of the Two Rivers is the big finale.

 

Maybe they should find time to add Siuan plot (rumors say Elaida has been cast)?

The way you outline this is as close to books as it is possible at this point, I like it.

[mogi68]

I bet s3 starts with Rand and Lan sparring shirtless on top of the tower in Falme 

[Skipp]

19 hours ago, mogi68 said:

I bet s3 starts with Rand and Lan sparring shirtless on top of the tower in Falme 

That would be a lovely way to pull that scene into the show.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On 10/16/2023 at 12:28 PM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I hear you but I guess my thought process was based on intent. The subject of killing others and how it affects the killer is very poignant in the books. Killing to maintain strategic advantage, in self defense/defense of others or even believing it’s a form of mercy or for the greater good can all be used as justification within the psyche of the one doing the killing. However, for our characters like Rand and mat and Perrin the heavy burden of taking a life for any reason at all weighs heavily and persistently on their minds. So I guess I was approaching it from that angle. In the scene it appears that egwene possessed cold resolve in her action but I wonder if this will have any affect on her character in the show moving forward, one way or another. 

It is tricky part of me wants to say they'll ignore this and take it more as a strength of will thing, that she told Renna she was going to kill her and she did. No emotional  baggage there. 

 

But while it does not play into her being torn by remorse, it does give a bit more meaning to the line "you have no idea what I am capable of" to Liandrin. I thought that was a bit weak at the time, as her show of defiance and been thoroughly put down and out-creeped by our favourite woman who does not respect others personal space, but taken with the events in Falme, it could mean that Egwene really is on course to be completely badass and ruthless quite different from her goody-two-shoes image in the books.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It is tricky part of me wants to say they'll ignore this and take it more as a strength of will thing, that she told Renna she was going to kill her and she did. No emotional  baggage there. 

 

But while it does not play into her being torn by remorse, it does give a bit more meaning to the line "you have no idea what I am capable of" to Liandrin. I thought that was a bit weak at the time, as her show of defiance and been thoroughly put down and out-creeped by our favourite woman who does not respect others personal space, but taken with the events in Falme, it could mean that Egwene really is on course to be completely badass and ruthless quite different from her goody-two-shoes image in the books.

Wow, that’s an excellent observation. I like the example you used, I had not given much thought to that encounter with liandrin and didn’t apply any special meaning to her statement at the time until you pointed it out.  When everything is put together and looking at the whole picture so far, I have to think it has profound importance to her character moving forward. Her character has already transformed so tremendously in such a short time from the initial relative innocence and optimism she portrays before her captivity. It will be interesting to watch how this unfolds going forward. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

12 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Wow, that’s an excellent observation. I like the example you used, I had not given much thought to that encounter with liandrin and didn’t apply any special meaning to her statement at the time until you pointed it out.  When everything is put together and looking at the whole picture so far, I have to think it has profound importance to her character moving forward. Her character has already transformed so tremendously in such a short time from the initial relative innocence and optimism she portrays before her captivity. It will be interesting to watch how this unfolds going forward. 

In the books I always found Egwene a little too focused on doing the right thing, almost as if she was the Dragon as she did not really seem to have the struggles with motivation that all the other characters had to one degree or another. 

 

Definitely looking forward to seeing how her character pans out. 

[Finnssss22]

On 10/14/2023 at 5:08 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think we get a version of it in the season finale.

My outline is something like this:

 

Group One:

Rand, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene --> to the Waste. Rand meets Asmo and trains with the power. Trains on the sword with Lan. Tension generated by Lanfear being there, unknown to Rand. (Two actresses so audience knows a bunch that Rand & Co. do not.) Rand hooks up with Avi. Season ends with Rand returning from Rhuidean.

 

Egwene trains with the Wise Ones --> the vehicle to learn about Aiel culture, prophecies, and history.

 

Moiraine --> focused on prophecy. Figures out who Lanfear is and saves him from Lanfear's jealousy in the final episode by tackling her into the door. (This may require some major changes to how Rhuidean works).

 

Group Two:

Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin --> to Camelyn on their way to the Two Rivers. Perrin splits away (wolf stuff) and heads directly home. Mat gets lost in Camelyn and manages to find his way to the Finn. 

 

First half of the season --> vehicle for learning about Andoran politics, Elaida, Morgase and the rest of the family. Introduction of a male Forsaken. Elayne and Nyn leave for Tanchico mid-season. Find Callandor (replacing BotW) at the end of the season. 

 

Perrin gets to the Two Rivers, finds it much changed. Trolloc assaults. Dain and Perrin become uneasy allies. Battle of the Two Rivers is the big finale.

 

Doesn't sound unreasonable but after NY CC we now know for sure we're mainly getting...

*Aiel/Rhuidean and Dreamwalking (Rand, Egwene, Moiraine, Lan)

*Two Rivers (Perrin, Loial, Bain and Chiad) +Tinkers reappearance

*Travel on a Seafolk ship most likely to Tanchico (Elayne, Nynaeve)

 

So we know pretty much where the season will go for the last 4-5 episodes, the question is where are they starting it and how do they get to these places?

 

If there is a White Tower reset is Mat going there as well? Or is he just going with Rand straight up?

Does Avi go with Perrin or Rand?

When/where do they introduce Faile?

Where does Thom reappear?

When do they introduce Elaida?

When/where are Gawyn and Galad coming in?

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

 

Does Avi go with Perrin or Rand?

 

 

 

 

I saw a leak that she goes with Rand and someone else is with Perrin, Bain and Chiad

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

I saw a leak that she goes with Rand and someone else is with Perrin, Bain and Chiad

The leak I saw said a male aiel actor.

[Mirefox]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The leak I saw said a male aiel actor.

So Gaul?