WoT Season 2 Episode 2: Strangers and Friends

[DigificWriter]

3 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

Yay, Rand has a blade master mentor (even if he's insane)

 

It's not a good look to equate PTSD and a mental condition that might be dementia with insanity.

Edited September 5, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Moiraine has been intentionally made the main protagonist of the TV show; they're not going to remove her from the board, even if they do get her story to where it is in the 'middle' books.

No they are writing moraine out the same way that I will hang my hat on, it makes sense for several reasons. 
 

The scene where moraine disappears is a crux character growth moment for Rand, losing her drives his character forward in a way no other event could. 
 

Moraine disappearing triggers a massive shift in lans character in a way that only her “death” could. 
 

It leads to a book moment late on involving Matt and other characters that I doubt Rafe and others can avoid showing on tv because it will be so cinematic and make for a very very fun episode. 
 

Spoiler

TV writers really love a dramatic return from the dead scene, and the moment Moraine reappears will be a gasp moment for viewers. 
 

I can absolutely see that the producers agreed with Rosamund Pikes agent that she will get a break and n the middle of her run for a year or 2 while the show films a couple of seasons, then she comes back for the final season or 2, in reality her on screen time post return will be effectively 3 scenes so not loads of filming time anyway. 

 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Is he though?

 

Here's a thought. Aside from knowing Perrin in the dreams... Perhaps he caught Perrin in the crowd... because Perrin was one of the few people in the crowd that could... actually see him?

Suroth talked to him so he is there in the flesh, it matches up with the books that she would know. It also matches up with the books in that the forsaken try various schemes to capture or kill those Rand is close to in order to push him over the edge and ensure the moment on the mountain goes the other way, thereby letting the shadow win. 
 

It also matches up that of all of the 5 Perrin is the only one not to be trapped, or walk into a trap in fact he is the most untrappable of the 5 so him “escaping” tracks as well :). 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Scarloc99

[A Memory Of Why]

5 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

In a book, you can exclude a character from parts of the story and put them "out of sight, out of mind" for a while; in a visual medium, though, you have to remind audiences that the character is still around unless you definitively kill them off.

 

"Previously on The Wheel Of time" 😎

 

I get what you're saying but don't quite agree. You don't need to remind the audience someone's alive for a fake out death plot.

 

I may be being stubborn, but I think they'll keep Moraines "death" as it impacts several characters plot / growth.

 

To further back this up, there was an interview I'm pretty sure was not long after season 1 where Rafe tells a story about how happy he is the crew is invested in the shows story. And how he said in front of some that a certain someone dies in season 3, which they were shocked / upset to hear..

 

a) I can't think of any prominent characters that would have this reaction at this time and considering the show is borderline Moraine sentric..

 

b) Pike was in this interview and I rewatched it focusing on her. She Aes Sedia'd the crape out of her face, considering her boss was telling a fun anecdote she barely reacted..

 

I feel it's obvious we'll get this plot, I do agree that Pike won't be sidelined for half the series though and we'll get the alive reveal a lot earlier. 

 

E.g. end of season 3 Moraine "dies"

 

Towards the end of season 4 we see her fighting through the nightmare scenarios of the Fin

 

Season 5 we see different scenarios which makes it weird and suspect, we also see Moridin liberating Lanfear and we see she's in a magic trap.

 

And she's rescued in season 6.!

 

All the while we get New Spring flashbacks via Lan.

 

Yeah, she's made a secondary character during this but this is when the E5 really need the focus. And it will give her time to sort out 11 audio books 😉

Edited September 5, 2023 by A Memory Of Why

[LTL]

My default assumption since Rosamund was announced in the role has been that she probably wouldn't want to be involved in the show for over a decade and they likely planned to make Moiraine's death real in the show as a massive main character death to rival GoT. I figured this fit in nicely with making her the main character in the early seasons, increasing the impact when it happens. Obviously that has ripple effects on the later part of the story and I'm in no way saying that this will definitely happen but it seems like a realistic possibility? It may also not be decided yet how they'll deal with it. Might depend on things such as the success of the show, Rosamund's desire to continue, budget future seasons are given etc.

[Agitel]

5 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Rafe and his writers will craft a storyline for Moiraine in order for Rosamund Pike to remain on our screens. That's a guaranteed certainty*.

 

Said storyline may be derived from the novels, or it may be 100% original. The point is that even if/when we reach a place where Moiraine was no longer present in the novels, we will still see Rosamund Pike playing the character on our screens, and we will eventually 'catch up' to the point where she re-enters the narrative as it appears on the page.

 

Believing that Rosamund Pike will disappear from the cast just because the story reaches a point where the character of Moiraine disappeared from the novels - even temporarily - is, to put it bluntly, foolishness.

 

* They've already crafted a storyline for the character in Season 2 in order to keep Rosamund on our screens

 

They created a storyline for season two because she still has more significant things to do from the books.

 

You wrote with such certainty. What do you say to GOT removing Sean Bean and Mark Addy from the show in its first season? They didn't write new plots for their main characters there.

 

Killing her off permanently fits the narrative better than skipping that plot point all together.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Agitel

[notpropaganda73]

23 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Killing her off permanently fits the narrative better than skipping that plot point all together.

I do agree with this but I wonder if someone else will be the Moiraine from the books, and Moiraine will go on Siuan's journey instead for the TV show. 

 

I don't think there's another that would really have the same impact on Rand but it's a possibility.

[DigificWriter]

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

What do you say to GOT removing Sean Bean and Mark Addy from the show in its first season?

 

Sean Bean and Mark Addy weren't producers on GoT and their characters' permanent deaths were written into the source material.

 

Also, to clarify what I'm saying, Moiraine will either be permanently killed off (which I personally doubt), or the show will do a 'fakeout death' that is 'undone' for the audience through the mechanism of the show following her character to wherever she ends up after 'dying' and depicting what happened to her without there being a gap in time.

 

IOW, if Moiraine 'dies' in Season 3 and Rosamund doesn't depart the cast, we as an audience will be shown that she's alive shortly thereafter and part of Season 4 will involve us seeing her go through whatever she went through after her 'death', whether through the means of original storylines or storylines pulled forward from the books.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Suroth talked to him so he is there in the flesh, it matches up with the books that she would know.

I don’t think she ever speaks to him. He speaks while standing next to her, but Suroth never acknowledges his presence. 
 

So in my mind it’s an open question whether or not Ishy is visible. 

[DigificWriter]

Suroth asks "are they ready?" and Ishy immediately responds. He's really on that palanquin with her.

[Agitel]

26 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

IOW, if Moiraine 'dies' in Season 3 and Rosamund doesn't depart the cast, we as an audience will be shown that she's alive shortly thereafter and part of Season 4 will involve us seeing her go through whatever she went through after her 'death', whether through the means of original storylines or storylines pulled forward from the books.

 

So they do a Theon Greyjoy with her. Most of where she goes is just

 

Spoiler

her being held captive while these elfin people who don't serve as major characters in the story feed on her energies.

 

So not a lot of content without expanding it more. It'd be nice to see that, in my view, because it's a mysterious aspect of the books that'd be fun to explore, but unless they create a whole new plot direction altogether I feel like that lasts a season, possibly two, if they're willing to keep us hanging a bit before the reveal. Unless new arcs are created entirely, rather than just expanding on established lore, they'd have to bring her back earlier than in the books. Honestly I think killing her off as a character works better for the narrative, mostly, as Rand believing her dead is significant for his development. But obviously there are different ways to plot it out, restructure things, and other factors that are important for working on TV.

 

We shall see. If they're staying roughly consistent with the book timelines, which of course they may not, the event should happen either in S3 or S4, depending on when they do what content.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Agitel

[Agitel]

I'm wondering if we have should have a separate, full book spoilers thread for speculating on where the plot and character arcs are going, and how the show may handle things.

[SinisterDeath]

13 hours ago, Agitel said:

One thing they could do, if they want to keep that plot point while

 

Ugh stuck with another quote box I can't remove on mobile, lol. I don't have the Source button I was shown to remove it.

Damn, must be an admin only thing. I can't even add that to the toolbar for you guys..

Umm. your next option is refresh your browser, and look for the "clear editor" text when you click back in the box.

 

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I'm wondering if we have should have a separate, full book spoilers thread for speculating on where the plot and character arcs are going, and how the show may handle things.

Feel free to make a topic about that!

 

 

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t think she ever speaks to him. He speaks while standing next to her, but Suroth never acknowledges his presence. 
 

So in my mind it’s an open question whether or not Ishy is visible. 

 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Suroth asks "are they ready?" and Ishy immediately responds. He's really on that palanquin with her.

That doesn't mean he's visible to everyone else.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

I'm wondering if we have should have a separate, full book spoilers thread for speculating on where the plot and character arcs are going, and how the show may handle things.

I have been wondering that myself, I am trying to be vague and talk around things, or use spiler tags but I am aware I have let things slip just in talking about where storylines might go 

[Scarloc99]

53 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

Feel free to make a topic about that!

 

Topic made 

[Skipp]

Concerning Moiraine and writing Rosamund out of the show,  My theory to have your cake and eat it too would be to have Moiraine "die" but the actor is kept around as a madness to Rand.  To help so Rand's madness on screen I am hoping they will have the LTT actor on set, rather than just a voice, to argue with Rand before cutting to see others reactions to Rand arguing with nothing. I feel they could use Moiraine the same way to really crush Rand with guilt.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Suroth asks "are they ready?" and Ishy immediately responds. He's really on that palanquin with her.

Which proves only that he can hear Suroth, not that Suroth can see or hear him. She never reacts to him, and we do not see him interact with anyone else (contra the cold open to E1).

[TheDreadReader]

6 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t think she ever speaks to him. He speaks while standing next to her, but Suroth never acknowledges his presence. 
 

So in my mind it’s an open question whether or not Ishy is visible. 

 

 

For all the talk that they are changing the lore, it was a nice callback to some of the lore (whether intentional or not) to have him there.

 

Spoiler

Ishy as Jalwin Moerad adviser to Hawkwing that turned him against the Aes Sedai.

 

[Elder_Haman]

Something I noticed:

 

In Perrin's vision after crossing the river, the antagonist with the sword is someone we don't recognize. I'm wondering if this is Luc. And whether we will find out that it was Luc, not Fain, who nailed the Fade.

 

 

[Masha]

On 9/1/2023 at 1:56 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Maybe, but neither one has visions..

 

Honestly, if I can turn my brain off I'd say it looks cool and I like it. But turning it back on I don't understand, it made sense and would be cool if it was wolf talk, but it doesn't feel like that..

 

Maybe it's due to his connection to TAR? Instead of him having prophetic visions in TAR.. or on top of.. I don't know.

 

I reckon we're going to have some teaching moments coming up soon, we'll see if it gets explained.

Those visions are straight from the second book and were never explained. 

[SinisterDeath]

Speaking of visions...

I wouldn't be surprised if they're moving the "smell violence" (Hurin's ability) and show that as "see visions" of that violence, in place of "smell emotions" because to paraphrase Uno. Who the feck do you show Perrin smelling Faile's contradictory emotions every 5 seconds?

[Storeebooq]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Speaking of visions...

I wouldn't be surprised if they're moving the "smell violence" (Hurin's ability) and show that as "see visions" of that violence, in place of "smell emotions" because to paraphrase Uno. Who the feck do you show Perrin smelling Faile's contradictory emotions every 5 seconds?

🤣

Seriously, there was so much inner dialogue with the "smelling" and visions from the wolves that would be hard or impossible to translate over to the screen. 

I think the visions are smart and lines up with what viewers are expecting in shows these days and with attention span. They are moments out of step with the current time, since all but Elyas pause, and also reminds me of TAR, so I feel like they are connecting the two. 

 

I do wish we had some more clear communication between Perrin and the wolves..like we see it sort of happening...but I would love them to find a way to show a communication system between them. Maybe we will get it as the season progresses. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I kinda feel like the Perrin, elyas, and wolf storyline is just at the beginning of being introduced and will be developed more and more as we go along. 
 

regarding the seanchan and how some fans feel that it’s too soon and/or too obvious in the way that the connection of some characters to the dark one is portrayed…in book 2 we see liandrin (who we know by now is a Darkfriend) deliver the girls to suroth…so for me, at least, that element was introduced as early in the books as the show. Yes maybe more subtle, but still present. 
 

I love the idea that ishy is not necessarily literally visible in his presence, but maybe we’re seeing his presence and influence visually since it’s more evident on screen than trying to incorporate it the way it was done in the books. I’m on board with either scenario, but there’s something about the possibility that we are seeing how much influence he has over the minds of people by placing him in the scene as though he really is or might as well be there in the flesh. 
 

As for moiraine it will be interesting to see how that unfolds. Lots of possible routes the show might take. I don’t have any specific predictions or preferences but I think that the need to massively condense the source material and move along the plots will make a big difference whatever happens. Could be resolved within one season depending on how swiftly the progression is handled. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

regarding the seanchan and how some fans feel that it’s too soon and/or too obvious in the way that the connection of some characters to the dark one is portrayed…in book 2 we see liandrin (who we know by now is a Darkfriend) deliver the girls to suroth…so for me, at least, that element was introduced as early in the books as the show. Yes maybe more subtle, but still present. 

In a book that is POV it is a valid approach not to give the reader more information then the characters have, they get caught out and surprised by schemes that you the reader had no idea where going on in the background. In a TV show this can be a valid approach but used to much and it can become boring, or lose the shock, it is also much harder to give subtle indications of a characters true motive because you usually only get the chance of one or 2 scenes to do it and need to be fully overt to make sure it is caught, as opposed to a book where the author can emphasise those things they want to reader to pick up on. Like Liandrin taking the bottle the camera zoomed in and made sure you def saw it, rather then having her do it in the background and hope everyone saw it. 

So I have no issue with Darkfriends being revealed far earlier,

Spoiler

I personally hope the Verin reveal happens in season 2 or 3, you can then have an entire show of viewers getting very very worried at how close she gets to the main characters before the Big reveal in season 7 or 8 of what she was really doing. I want that torn morale question about her, want to see her kill her own sister, torture someone innocent or do something equally despicable to prove her loyalty and then at the end when she reveals what she was doing the whole time have the viewer really have that same morale quandry she had, at what point did the bad she did outweight the good that might come from it. 

 

[Chivalry]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:09 AM, Skipp said:

Concerning Moiraine and writing Rosamund out of the show,  My theory to have your cake and eat it too would be to have Moiraine "die" but the actor is kept around as a madness to Rand.  To help so Rand's madness on screen I am hoping they will have the LTT actor on set, rather than just a voice, to argue with Rand before cutting to see others reactions to Rand arguing with nothing. I feel they could use Moiraine the same way to really crush Rand with guilt.

 

Before Episode 3, I would not have considered Moraine at risk. Now, I'm not so sure. Perhaps Rosamund Pike, who actually has had a nice career, does not want to be tied down to a multi-season show (with pauses of 2 years between seasons).

 

But book Rand was much more attached (at the hip) to Moraine ...TV Rand, not so much (so far). Would he still feel guilt?