How to handle the independent character arcs

[expat]

I am currently watching Witcher Season 3 (only through episode 5, so please no spoilers) and found myself disliking all the different, independent character threads being interwoven throughout the series.  I find them both distracting by upsetting the flow and timing as well as somewhat confusing because it always takes awhile to remember what the thread is trying to accomplish. I didn't watch GOT but found the LOTR series irritating for the same reason.

 

WoT, somewhat in season 2, but on steriods in later seasons, has this same problem.  In season two, we have at least independent arcs on Rand, Moiraine/Lan, Mat doing Mat things in Tar Valon, Perrin chasing the Horn, the girls in training, and introducing the Seanchan as well as any other threads (e.g., Forsaken meddling, AS plotting) that pop up.  While things get easier since many of these threads converge at Falme, this is only a temporary reduction.  In later years, we get separate arcs from all the main characters including Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egewene, Elayne with and without Nyn, as well as important arcs with Eladia, AS politics, black tower, Gawyn, Galad, Forsaken plotting, search for black ajah etc.  Many of these arcs go on for years with no interaction with another major story line.

With so many concurrent arcs, is there a way to structure the series to avoid some the pitfalls of the previous series (besides drastically cutting down the number)?

[Ralph]

are you suggesting (sacrilege!!) that they may need to change something from the books??! 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

are you suggesting (sacrilege!!) that they may need to change something from the books??! 

For the record I meant to hit the laugh button but I do also like your post 

[Elglin]

11 hours ago, expat said:

I am currently watching Witcher Season 3 (only through episode 5, so please no spoilers) and found myself disliking all the different, independent character threads being interwoven throughout the series.  I find them both distracting by upsetting the flow and timing as well as somewhat confusing because it always takes awhile to remember what the thread is trying to accomplish. I didn't watch GOT but found the LOTR series irritating for the same reason.

 

WoT, somewhat in season 2, but on steriods in later seasons, has this same problem.  In season two, we have at least independent arcs on Rand, Moiraine/Lan, Mat doing Mat things in Tar Valon, Perrin chasing the Horn, the girls in training, and introducing the Seanchan as well as any other threads (e.g., Forsaken meddling, AS plotting) that pop up.  While things get easier since many of these threads converge at Falme, this is only a temporary reduction.  In later years, we get separate arcs from all the main characters including Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egewene, Elayne with and without Nyn, as well as important arcs with Eladia, AS politics, black tower, Gawyn, Galad, Forsaken plotting, search for black ajah etc.  Many of these arcs go on for years with no interaction with another major story line.

With so many concurrent arcs, is there a way to structure the series to avoid some the pitfalls of the previous series (besides drastically cutting down the number)?

I would term this "narrative creep". GoT (or ASOIAF), LOTR, Witcher all start as a concentrated narrative, but later as the series gains scope, you ultimately get multiple arcs, multiple PoVs and the narrative speed starts slowing down. LOTR has that to the least extent, but at a certain point you get four narratives (Frodo, Pippin, Merry, Paths of the Dead) in parallel.

WOT started with branching and reconvening as early as post-Shadar Logoth. As of TSR, Jordan abandoned the "reconvening", and from about ACOS the sprawl started hitting hard with the low point in COT.

 

I don't really thing there is an option to avoid that in the series. However, GoT managed to juggle four lines (North, Riverlands, King's Landing, Daenerys) reasonably well. Cutting large swathes of ultimately secondary plots could help keep the amount of parallel threads under that number. At least "long-running threads", defined as those which run longer than a single episode. RJ actually does a good job of merging threads while branching new ones in the early 3-6 books (depending on the viewpoint). I wouldn't worry past that point at the moment.

[Samt]

I don’t think that this is an inherent narrative problem.  Shows can have lots of independent threads and remain engaging. There are lots of examples of this. Heroes, for instance, tended to have lots of independent character threads. Lost is another example. I didn’t watch GoT, but I understand it also tended to follow lots of threads. The important considerations are that

 

A) All of the arcs feel meaningful and that we care about each of them.

 

B) The story gets woven back together in a landing that sticks.  
 

By all means, the books provide a roadmap to do this.  
 

That said, season 1 did not provide a good foundation for this, in my opinion.  First, it was light on establishing the main heroes as independent characters that we can relate to and care about.  They will all need to be able to carry a thread, and they aren’t that developed yet.  Second, the show creators seem interested on adding threads. Moiraine and Alan never really get their own thread in the books. Step in certainly doesn’t.  
 

That said, there is certainly still time. Book 1 doesn’t really flesh out all of the characters anyways.  Matt, Egwene, and to an extent Nynaeve don’t really develop independently in book 1.  On the other hand, Perrin and Rand are also behind where they probably should be.  

[Elglin]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

That said, there is certainly still time. Book 1 doesn’t really flesh out all of the characters anyways.  Matt, Egwene, and to an extent Nynaeve don’t really develop independently in book 1.  On the other hand, Perrin and Rand are also behind where they probably should be.  

It's really interesting how they deal with Rand's arc. Hurin, Loial, Selene - that's one kind of group dynamics, just Selene - well, that's completely another. "You called yourself LTT and were her fervent lover".

On a more serious note, the way you develop a character is by its interaction with other characters. One of the reasons we see just a handful of Rand in TDR is because he's alone.

The alt-world travel with a little of Selene, then some weddings from TDR, then "the garden scene" to introduce Elayne, then skip to Barthanes's feast and then reunite with Perrin?

[Guire]

I think GoT did this better than Witcher and way better than RoP. Part of this to me was establishing location, cultural difference through costuming and race, and time.  GoT used maps areas to focus viewer in intro.  GoT also kept most arcs down to about 4 it felt like.  Towards end when they were fast traveling evryone everywhere to meet story needs it got more muddled.

 

This was a part of my complaint about season 1 of WoT.  You couldn't just turn on any scene and be visually cued easily this was a different place and arc.  I think this was equally a problem of Amazon business decisions and Rafe priorities.  May get fixed as we move into season 2 but I think underlying constraints still exist.

[expat]

23 hours ago, Guire said:

I think GoT did this better than Witcher and way better than RoP. Part of this to me was establishing location, cultural difference through costuming and race, and time.  GoT used maps areas to focus viewer in intro.  GoT also kept most arcs down to about 4 it felt like.  Towards end when they were fast traveling evryone everywhere to meet story needs it got more muddled.

From your answer, the other shows have about 4 arcs going at one time (since by my count Witcher and RoP also have 4 arcs).  WoT will have at least 5 main arcs, plus several minor ones. 

 

I count main arcs for Rand, hunt for horn, Mat, Moiraine/Lan, and girls in the WT.

There may also be arcs introducing the Seanchan and Aiel (Aviendha)  prior to Falme.

There also may be arcs on WT politics and Forsaken plotting

There might also be one or more world building arcs foreshadowing an important lore element that will be needed in the future. [introducing the Seanchan and Aiel probably fits this, so there might not be another one]

You have to introduce the Caemlyn characters Elayne, Eladia, Gawyn and Galad.  Given the importance of these characters going forward, they probably need screen time for a backstory like Min and Valda got in season 1.

In addition, you need something to keep recurring characters like Min, Siuan, Liandrin, Fain, Logain, and Valda involved so the audience doesn't forget about them.  Most will get integrated into the existing arcs, but if not, then they will need their own small threads.

 

We are going from about 4 independent arcs in the other shows to 5-8 arcs in season 2 and later.  I'm worried that the show will be jumping around to ensure that all the arcs get adequate TV time that the pacing will be atrocious and the story will be lost in all the little details.

[SinisterDeath]

40 minutes ago, expat said:

From your answer, the other shows have about 4 arcs going at one time (since by my count Witcher and RoP also have 4 arcs).  WoT will have at least 5 main arcs, plus several minor ones. 

 

I count main arcs for Rand, hunt for horn, Mat, Moiraine/Lan, and girls in the WT.

There may also be arcs introducing the Seanchan and Aiel (Aviendha)  prior to Falme.

There also may be arcs on WT politics and Forsaken plotting

There might also be one or more world building arcs foreshadowing an important lore element that will be needed in the future. [introducing the Seanchan and Aiel probably fits this, so there might not be another one]

You have to introduce the Caemlyn characters Elayne, Eladia, Gawyn and Galad.  Given the importance of these characters going forward, they probably need screen time for a backstory like Min and Valda got in season 1.

In addition, you need something to keep recurring characters like Min, Siuan, Liandrin, Fain, Logain, and Valda involved so the audience doesn't forget about them.  Most will get integrated into the existing arcs, but if not, then they will need their own small threads.

 

We are going from about 4 independent arcs in the other shows to 5-8 arcs in season 2 and later.  I'm worried that the show will be jumping around to ensure that all the arcs get adequate TV time that the pacing will be atrocious and the story will be lost in all the little details.

If you go by the posters released today... I'm guessing we're having 6 main characters arcs, 1 "villain" arc. (which could be told in the cold-opens?)

 

Discounting cold opens, you can show other-character's "arcs" in the main-arcs by incorporating them in the main-characters scenes. 
Ala Mat's fight scene with Elayne's brothers.

You've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the issue of adapting a book with 2787 named characters and ~148 Points of Views into a TV series. You need to keep it concise or the audience gets lost.

If you spread it to thin, the details get lost and the audience gets whiplash from the jump-cutting between characters.

[nsmallw]

Someone please give me reasons why Galad and Gawyn are necessary at all. 

 

I mean do we need the Whitecloaks semi-redemption arc ? If not, then why is Galad needed. 

 

Do we need Gawyn at all ? I think if you take him out of the series entirely, there's nothing that is lost. 

 

He literally does nothing of importance. 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

Someone please give me reasons why Galad and Gawyn are necessary at all. 

 

I mean do we need the Whitecloaks semi-redemption arc ? If not, then why is Galad needed. 

 

Do we need Gawyn at all ? I think if you take him out of the series entirely, there's nothing that is lost. 

 

He literally does nothing of importance. 

It’s a fictional book series being adapted into a fictional TV series.  Literally nothing is necessary at all.  Some characters leave bigger holes than others, but you can cut any character outside of the EF5(and maybe some of them) and still have a recognizable adaptation. 
 

That said: 

Spoiler

Gawyn plays an important role in facilitating Elaida’s coup. He gives us an interesting window in developing that side of the WT. Later, he saves Egwene from the bloodknives and teaches her an important lesson on the purpose of warders and building a big tent of supporters. He is also her love interest, as much as many don’t like that relationship.  Narratively, he is an interesting character as far as his showing the importance of accepting your role and raises interesting philosophical questions about what it means to be the hero in your own story and how you need to own that. Also, interesting musings on the purpose of

life in general (and raises the question of what does suicide mean).

Obviously, you can cut all of that, but see my first paragraph.

 

In regards to Galad:

Spoiler

He’s actually harder to cut simply because the white cloaks have to go somewhere. Whether or not they need a redemption arc is subjective, but unless you intend for them to get wiped out wholesale (by the Seanchan, maybe), you have to take them somewhere.  Galad is also important to Perrin’s arc. Narratively, he raises questions about the meaning of justice and rules. He also challenges the trope that things the good guys do are good because they are the good guys even if they would be bad if the bad guys did them.

 

Also, people really like Matt’s staff scene.

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

Someone please give me reasons why Galad and Gawyn are necessary at all. 

 

I mean do we need the Whitecloaks semi-redemption arc ? If not, then why is Galad needed. 

 

Do we need Gawyn at all ? I think if you take him out of the series entirely, there's nothing that is lost. 

 

He literally does nothing of importance. 

I like the Whitecloak 'redemption'.  

[nsmallw]

34 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I like the Whitecloak 'redemption'.  

 

Well, if they are going to explore, "the humanity of Trollocs" anything is possible LOL. 

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

 

Well, if they are going to explore, "the humanity of Trollocs" anything is possible LOL. 

Forgetting about Narg?

[DojoToad]

38 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Forgetting about Narg?

Narg smart!

[nsmallw]

Narg dead lol

[Guire]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

Narg dead lol

Narg fake out death.  Ishy rezed him so he could be a part of his dark constructs menagerie.  The shadow spawn carousal is a crowd favorite.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 8/17/2023 at 10:26 AM, DojoToad said:

Narg smart!

Hahaha! Yes!! I was so giddy with the excitement over the opportunity of posting that very response that the only scenario that could have topped it was immediately discovering in the next post that you had so eloquently already delivered it! 😂 my deepest gratitude, thank you 

[Scarloc99]

I mean RJ didn’t always manage it brilliantly. I’m really looking forward to Tam meeting up with Rand for “the talk”, only to then wait 2 seasons before Tam actually leaves Perrin :). 
 

But on a serious note one story thread that hasn’t been mentioned is the interweaving of the first breaking that Rafe is doing, which is not anything we see in the books other than through other characters. 
 

I think a GOT approach will also nicely match the books, I remember GOT just ignoring swathes of characters when it made more sense to focus an episode somewhere else. We didn’t get dany or Tyrion all the time. 

[denise_42]

I will start by saying that I haven't read the books yet, but with Rand being one of the main characters he doesn't seem to get much screen time I take it he is in the books more.

[Guire]

9 minutes ago, denise_42 said:

I will start by saying that I haven't read the books yet, but with Rand being one of the main characters he doesn't seem to get much screen time I take it he is in the books more.

The books have a massive amount of page space so yes he is their more.  He does disappear for long stretches while we are in other characters arcs.  basically ef5 all havr an arc and posse that interweaves with each other.

[DaddyFinn]

44 minutes ago, denise_42 said:

I will start by saying that I haven't read the books yet, but with Rand being one of the main characters he doesn't seem to get much screen time I take it he is in the books more.

Rand has the most screen time in S1 after Moiraine

[SinisterDeath]

30 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Rand has the most screen time in S1 after Moiraine

Sauce: https://www.thegreatblight.com/post/wheel-of-timing-analysis-an-s1-breakdown#:~:text=With 2h52m29s of total screentime,Mat (1h32m40s%2C 6.7%).

Yep, and it's actually pretty damn close.

[nsmallw]

Mat and Nyneave had the least of the main cast. I can see it more in Nyneave's case since she was absent in an entire episode but I'm always surprised that Mat has the least. That means he needs much larger time in season two. 

[SinisterDeath]

30 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

Mat and Nyneave had the least of the main cast. I can see it more in Nyneave's case since she was absent in an entire episode but I'm always surprised that Mat has the least. That means he needs much larger time in season two. 

I hope it's made up with some ass kicking in the form of knocking heads with a staff and some dice sounds. That's all I need.