Why not follow the books more closely?

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Maybe one day I will understand why so many people are willing to assign any shortcomings in the show to malice, as opposed to a difference of opinion or things not working as well as hoped.

I think it’s because of the times we live in, friend. For far too many, politics has devolved into each side trying to find witches to burn. 
 

Combine that with the emotional investment hard core fans always bring to adaptations, and you have a recipe for just the phenomenon you described. 
 

Thus, what would once have been merely one producer’s artistic choice and thus subject to discussion becomes evidence of malice and a desire to destroy. 

[notpropaganda73]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:53 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Maybe one day I will understand why so many people are willing to assign any shortcomings in the show to malice, as opposed to a difference of opinion or things not working as well as hoped. 

 

But seeing as this willingness seems to be tied to some sort of masculinity-worshiping, I guess I probably won't. 

probably my biggest frustrations with what I would call the "loudest" criticisms. There are plenty of very valid criticisms coming from a different place to me, and I really enjoy getting into what is working and what isn't working in the show and why. But my instinct is to dismiss anyone rambling about men being demeaned and saying things like "Rafe of Time"

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

31 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

probably my biggest frustrations with what I would call the "loudest" criticisms. There are plenty of very valid criticisms coming from a different place to me, and I really enjoy getting into what is working and what isn't working in the show and why. But my instinct is to dismiss anyone rambling about men being demeaned and saying things like "Rafe of Time"

Yes, totally agree. Too many seem to have standards that the show cannot possibly meet, and they have the reason all ready for why it falls short of their impossible standards.

 

Of course the show is not going to be perfect, and parts of it are distinctly dodgy. But look at the books, they have lots of flaws, lots of fans talk about picking the series up in the middle and that they would never have gotten past the first few books if the rest had not already been bought or available from a family member, etc. Others talk about the middle slog as life-draining. Many have issues with the ending. But away from the book forums on the show forums some treat the books as if they are the holy script and any change is sacrilege, and motivated by some dastardly plan. Meh. 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:24 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Yes, totally agree. Too many seem to have standards that the show cannot possibly meet, and they have the reason all ready for why it falls short of their impossible standards.

 

Of course the show is not going to be perfect, and parts of it are distinctly dodgy. But look at the books, they have lots of flaws, lots of fans talk about picking the series up in the middle and that they would never have gotten past the first few books if the rest had not already been bought or available from a family member, etc. Others talk about the middle slog as life-draining. Many have issues with the ending. But away from the book forums on the show forums some treat the books as if they are the holy script and any change is sacrilege, and motivated by some dastardly plan. Meh. 

Standards the show can't meet, but also there own very skewed (and wrong) view of how the "world is up against them" and then trying to find anything in modern media to reafirm that belief. I also find it then goes against because people who have genuine issues but don't like that world view then feel they need to defend the show instead of being able to have a grown up adult conversation about the real artistic choices that have been made and what they do or don't like. 

 

Rings of Power had the same issue, it had a lot of issues but the moment that I saw people using the W word for it I almost wanted to defend it and not talk about the very real issues I had with it. 

I think also, and I might be putting myself on a block here, even the most ardent of book lovers have to accept that the books are not some great work of Dickens or Austin. they have literay and artistic flaws throughout them, they have plot holes and vast reams of text that many book lovers find boring and dull and have openly stated here they would just cut out. I find it amusing when someone lambasts the writers and accuses them of destroying the WOT because they "cut out the wrong bits", pick a lane, either the writers are destroying your fav work because they deviate or cut anything and therefore it isn't the WOT at all, or they are adapting the WOT and making some very difficult decisions. You don't get to say this is not in anyway the WOT because the wrong bits where cut or changed for the show. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Scarloc99

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Ah, the W word. Is there any more hated and derided term?

 

While there is obviously a big debate going on in our society at the moment about some pretty important issues, it is a huge mistake to try and simplify it down to them against us. It does no one any favours, and completely stops the discussion and allows us to be manipulated, as it is very easy two push someone's buttons if we all only have two.

 

Like that Hitman game, quite a few years back now, don't remember now which one. But it was really unpopular, with new mechanics and a different playstyle and I remember reading one review that complained that mostly your missions were to find ways to pass through doors, not to assassinate people, to the extent the reviewer thought the game really should be called Doorman instead. The fans hated it. So what happened? Marketing came up with a campaign that included trailers showcasing sexy lingerie wearing nuns being gunned down bloody graphic violence with great focus on how sexy they were. A facebook app was released where you could "kill" your friends, who would get a message they had been assassinated with the reason you chose including no one likes you and your boobs are too small. The app was pulled minutes after release. But lots of these stunts manipulated those who lean towards the left to come up in arms, online bullying groups, feminist groups, etc, which then had the effect that the more right-siding gaming community pushed back. And then supporting this game - that fans of the series liked less than anyone else - became a badge of standing up to SJWs. And so everyone was manipulated in doing exactly what the marketing company wanted, because as Vic Reeves used to say, we just couldn't let it lie. We had to be triggered, and respond like a reflex. Rather than just seeing the whole for what it was, a seedy marketing trick.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Ah, the W word. Is there any more hated and derided term?

 

While there is obviously a big debate going on in our society at the moment about some pretty important issues, it is a huge mistake to try and simplify it down to them against us. It does no one any favours, and completely stops the discussion and allows us to be manipulated, as it is very easy two push someone's buttons if we all only have two.

 

Like that Hitman game, quite a few years back now, don't remember now which one. But it was really unpopular, with new mechanics and a different playstyle and I remember reading one review that complained that mostly your missions were to find ways to pass through doors, not to assassinate people, to the extent the reviewer thought the game really should be called Doorman instead. The fans hated it. So what happened? Marketing came up with a campaign that included trailers showcasing sexy lingerie wearing nuns being gunned down bloody graphic violence with great focus on how sexy they were. A facebook app was released where you could "kill" your friends, who would get a message they had been assassinated with the reason you chose including no one likes you and your boobs are too small. The app was pulled minutes after release. But lots of these stunts manipulated those who lean towards the left to come up in arms, online bullying groups, feminist groups, etc, which then had the effect that the more right-siding gaming community pushed back. And then supporting this game - that fans of the series liked less than anyone else - became a badge of standing up to SJWs. And so everyone was manipulated in doing exactly what the marketing company wanted, because as Vic Reeves used to say, we just couldn't let it lie. We had to be triggered, and respond like a reflex. Rather than just seeing the whole for what it was, a seedy marketing trick.

It’s almost as if the elites want us to keep us divided along artificial lines, bickering 

amongst ourselves instead of focusing our attention on their failures. 
 

But that’s just crazy talk…

[Samt]

On 9/22/2023 at 3:53 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Maybe one day I will understand why so many people are willing to assign any shortcomings in the show to malice, as opposed to a difference of opinion or things not working as well as hoped. 

Well, I wouldn't use the word malice.  But there is definite intent.  The creators have admitted that they want to make a feminist re-imagining of the wheel of time.  As the saying goes, when someone tells you who he or she is, believe him or her.  

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Samt said:

Well, I wouldn't use the word malice.  But there is definite intent.  The creators have admitted that they want to make a feminist re-imagining of the wheel of time.  As the saying goes, when someone tells you who he or she is, believe him or her.  

Artist makes artistic choice. Film at 11.

[DigificWriter]

There are subjective opinions about the WoT adaptation and then there are opinions that, subjective or not, are just blatantly false or based on bad-faith arguments, and a good chunk of the negative opinions about the show fall firmly into the latter category.

 

A recent example of opinions that are just blatantly false:

during a panel at my local fan convention this past weekend, I tried to defend Rafe's fannish credentials (after the panelists questioned his familiarity with the WoT novels) before walking out (I really should've walked out as soon as the panelists used the Mortal Instruments and Eragon movie adaptations as examples of how the "books were better" [for the record, both of the novel series in question are crap and either border on or are blatant plagiarism]).

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Samt]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Artist makes artistic choice. Film at 11.

Feminist re-imagining may be artistic, but it's also clearly political.  Not sure why some people seem so keen on pretending it isn't.

[DigificWriter]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

Feminist re-imagining may be artistic, but it's also clearly political.  Not sure why some people seem so keen on pretending it isn't

 

Newsflash: Everything in life is 'political'.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

Feminist re-imagining may be artistic, but it's also clearly political.  Not sure why some people seem so keen on pretending it isn't.

I don't think anyone is pretending it isn't. Artists inject their own politics into their work. Why is this surprising to you? The disconnect is that you seem to feel that Rafe has made WoT into some sort of polemic. I don't.

[Kaleb]

6 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

There are subjective opinions about the WoT adaptation and then there are opinions that, subjective or not, are just blatantly false or based on bad-faith arguments, and a good chunk of the negative opinions about the show fall firmly into the latter category.

 

A recent example of opinions that are just blatantly false:

during a panel at my local fan convention this past weekend, I tried to defend Rafe's fannish credentials (after the panelists questioned his familiarity with the WoT novels) before walking out (I really should've walked out as soon as the panelists used the Mortal Instruments and Eragon movie adaptations as examples of how the "books were better" [for the record, both of the novel series in question are crap and either border on or are blatant plagiarism]).

 

I just read a good example of an opinion that I vehemently disagree with, but recognize as actually in good faith. The review of S2E6 at Tor.com is from someone who felt the Egwene/Renna scenes were too intense and broke a boundary of good TV is almost the opposite of what I feel, especially when the reviewer says they wanted the show to spend significantly more time on the brief Mat/Min betrayal scene. Me and this reviewer are looking for different things from the show, and we can disagree about it without ad hominem directed at each other or at the show's production team.

https://www.tor.com/2023/09/22/wheel-of-time-s2-episode-6-review/

[DaddyFinn]

33 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

for the record, both of the novel series in question are crap and either border on or are blatant plagiarism]).

Inheritance Cycle is a great series

[DigificWriter]

7 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Inheritance Cycle is a great series

 

Agree to disagree.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

34 minutes ago, Samt said:

Feminist re-imagining may be artistic, but it's also clearly political.  Not sure why some people seem so keen on pretending it isn't.

Being a decent human being is not political. Feminism is the promotion of the equality of the sexes and the equality of traditional "masculine" and "feminine" traits (it was once mainstream psychological theory that male traits were superior to female, and were more advanced, so that women, and men that displayed feminine traits had been unable to develop their psyche fully. As if being female and nurturing, sharing and caring was actually a form of mental disease). That does not mean all ideas tagged feminist are good, or actually productive, but it does mean that anyone who is anti-feminist is against equality. It is what the words mean, who cannot just add your own definitions in to suit yourself. And nor can you pretend that by adding "modern" or "third-wave" or any other adjective that you are making any other type of argument.

 

Updating the Wheel of Time to be more modern and to deal with genders more realistically, and to help one of the greatest stories of all time appeal to more people is not an artistic (well, not in one sense at least) nor a political decision. However, having feminist or any other motivations for making changes does not make them good or bad. You have judge the changes in and of themselves. 

 

It might help if you understood what feminism is, and stopped being so terrified of it.

[Samt]

23 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Being a decent human being is not political. Feminism is the promotion of the equality of the sexes and the equality of traditional "masculine" and "feminine" traits (it was once mainstream psychological theory that male traits were superior to female, and were more advanced, so that women, and men that displayed feminine traits had been unable to develop their psyche fully. As if being female and nurturing, sharing and caring was actually a form of mental disease). That does not mean all ideas tagged feminist are good, or actually productive, but it does mean that anyone who is anti-feminist is against equality. It is what the words mean, who cannot just add your own definitions in to suit yourself. And nor can you pretend that by adding "modern" or "third-wave" or any other adjective that you are making any other type of argument.

 

Updating the Wheel of Time to be more modern and to deal with genders more realistically, and to help one of the greatest stories of all time appeal to more people is not an artistic (well, not in one sense at least) nor a political decision. However, having feminist or any other motivations for making changes does not make them good or bad. You have judge the changes in and of themselves. 

 

It might help if you understood what feminism is, and stopped being so terrified of it.

What do you think feminism is?  

[Samt]

38 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Inheritance Cycle is a great series

At a minimum, it's not inaccurate that the books are better than the movie.

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't think anyone is pretending it isn't. Artists inject their own politics into their work. Why is this surprising to you? The disconnect is that you seem to feel that Rafe has made WoT into some sort of polemic. I don't.

No surprised just disappointed.  It could have been so good.  Calling Rafe an artist is a stretch.  

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

No surprised just disappointed.  It could have been so good.  Calling Rafe an artist is a stretch.  

It's pretty dang good!  Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

What do you think feminism is?  

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I think I covered fairly succinctly what feminism actually is, in the post you quoted. Perhaps you can elucidate where you think opinions come into it?

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

Feminist re-imagining may be artistic, but it's also clearly political.  Not sure why some people seem so keen on pretending it isn't.

I would argue that every bit of art if political to some degree, some just seem unwilling to engage with it on that level (which is fine as well, sometimes people just want to enjoy art as it is without engaging in that). 

 

What I find quite boring about most of the "discourse" today (bleh) is that none of these points are interesting. Rafe has a very particular world view, so what? Is the show working within the parameters that the writers/creators have set? Are their choices for adaptation working in bringing WoT to the screen? If not, why not? That's the interesting bit to me.

 

I may be stepping on some toes or opening a can of worms here but as an example of this sort of thing, I was honestly super interested in the idea of a female Dragon Reborn because I thought it could link into a transgender channeller. I never believed that Rand wouldn't be the Dragon (because Rafe kept telling us that all book readers know who the Dragon is), but the idea that a woman could be, that was interesting. What would happen to a person born a woman, who could channel, but they are actually a trans man? Do they become blocked from the Source once they transition, or can they suddenly access saidin? Do they go mad? Could they be the Dragon Reborn after transitioning? And also the reverse, if someone born a man transitions, can they now access saidar? 

 

Sure, I am sympathetic to the trans community and a supporter of their rights etc., but that's not why I was interested in that idea, it was more about those sorts of questions. And I don't think it's a terrible shame on the world RJ created to introduce a character like that or ask those sorts of questions within the parameters of his world (as best we can). In today's climate online and politically, it would probably be a disaster for the show (I'm also not sure if the writers' could really pull it off - but maybe I'm being harsh), but that saddens me, that even an attempt at introducing something like that would be seen as some sort of extremely woke or political move, rather than just an artistic choice in telling a wider story. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by notpropaganda73

[DigificWriter]

@notpropaganda73 While we may not ever see Rafe and his team depict openly Trans characters on the show, I would argue that their decision to de-gender souls is at least a suble nod towards the existence of Trans individuals because of the fact that it is now absolutely possible, within the world of the show, for a male soul to be reborn in a female body and vice versa.

[Guire]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It's pretty dang good!  Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I have been enjoying this season much better.  The WoT prime is still probably 4th best vetsion that could have been made. The problem is not with feminism.  The problem is with the Hollywood version of girl power.  Hollywood tackling gender equality is like a domestic abuser giving relationship advice.  If equality is good then a dash of misandry is better.  As shown by last few episodes the show didnt need to glow up the female characters.  Decisions that were made for idealogical reasons muddled up lots of first season and its had knock on effects to second.  They are doing some really good TV story telling.  Much of that is just great casting and acting.  The feminist reinterpretation in the new turning is one of the big anchors slowing the story down.  I dont really enjoy Mat, Perrin, Elyas, Lan, Abel, and on the fence on Ihvon and Maksim.  Even though the changes were meant to appeal to younger and broader audience I have seen little evidence it is. Performative activism does no one any good and that is most of what Hollywood and Big Tech brings. 

[Guire]

21 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I would argue that every bit of art if political to some degree, some just seem unwilling to engage with it on that level (which is fine as well, sometimes people just want to enjoy art as it is without engaging in that). 

 

What I find quite boring about most of the "discourse" today (bleh) is that none of these points are interesting. Rafe has a very particular world view, so what? Is the show working within the parameters that the writers/creators have set? Are their choices for adaptation working in bringing WoT to the screen? If not, why not? That's the interesting bit to me.

 

I may be stepping on some toes or opening a can of worms here but as an example of this sort of thing, I was honestly super interested in the idea of a female Dragon Reborn because I thought it could link into a transgender channeller. I never believed that Rand wouldn't be the Dragon (because Rafe kept telling us that all book readers know who the Dragon is), but the idea that a woman could be, that was interesting. What would happen to a person born a woman, who could channel, but they are actually a trans man? Do they become blocked from the Source once they transition, or can they suddenly access saidin? Do they go mad? Could they be the Dragon Reborn after transitioning? And also the reverse, if someone born a man transitions, can they now access saidar? 

 

Sure, I am sympathetic to the trans community and a supporter of their rights etc., but that's not why I was interested in that idea, it was more about those sorts of questions. And I don't think it's a terrible shame on the world RJ created to introduce a character like that or ask those sorts of questions within the parameters of his world (as best we can). In today's climate online and politically, it would probably be a disaster for the show (I'm also not sure if the writers' could really pull it off - but maybe I'm being harsh), but that saddens me, that even an attempt at introducing something like that would be seen as some sort of extremely woke or political move, rather than just an artistic choice in telling a wider story. 

The problem is that changes like this require very skilled writers and time.  The prime WoT is a giant crunch on main character development so major deviations eat that time.  So far writing has not been strongest part of show.