Why not follow the books more closely?

[Elder_Haman]

23 hours ago, Samt said:

What’s so unsafe or impractical about a leash?

It is impractical to expect multiple actors doing multiple takes of large scale scenes to be holding leashes attached to collars worn by other actors. 

 

The leashes will get tangled, the actors will not move in unison and will be pushed or pulled off balance. 
 

Adding the leashes later via CGI is cumbersome and expensive. 
 

The “pacifiers” convey the same symbolic meaning of dehumanization while avoiding these pitfalls. 
 

There are plenty of examples of IPs being bent beyond recognition to suit political messages. But this ain’t it, chief. 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

The supposed love triangle referenced here never actually existed. Nynaeve's conclusion was flat-out baseless and wrong, but a lot of the WoT fandom - both book readers and show-only viewers alike - somehow missed that key detail and took her outburst as gospel truth.

I know it never happened, hence pseudo, but the fact is in the book there is never any constructed drama between Perrin Egwene and Rand, for me it added nothing. It was also badly scripted and the acting wasn’t much better. It felt more like a CW show than high fantasy. 
 

I am in no way saying it was all bad but, I think we need to be honest that bit of writing was indicative of the main issue. I am fine with the changes that were made, to lord, plot and characters largely. For me, having just rewatched it, the biggest issue is how bad some of the acting and dialogue was and for me this whole scene including Rand “storming off” just felt very contrived. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I realize that I’m on my own island here, but I kinda appreciated the maturing of sexuality in the show. The characters in the books seemed so prudish and downright unrealistic to me. Except, of course, when those same characters suddenly become a ok with a poly relationship. It’s not that simple, a different universe, I know. Just saying. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 8/17/2023 at 5:49 PM, Samt said:

I’m not sure I really get the symbolic difference between a leash and a muzzle. Both are things you put on a dog and are dehumanizing.  My main objection to the change is that it feels like a meaningless change that the showrunners are making to prove to the book fans that they can do whatever they want and they don’t care what fans think.  
 

A man tells a woman that he loves her deeply and that he just wants her to cut and dye her hair, lose 20 lbs, change her clothing and makeup style, quit her job, learn to cook, convert to his religion, adopt his political views, and indulge his weird sexual fetishes. Rafe saying he loves Wheel of Time has the same energy.

For the record I don’t have a strong personal opinion about the portrayal of the damane on screen, but your point starting with “a man tells a woman…” definitely makes me think…and I appreciate any perspective that makes me think 

[Elglin]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

in the book there is never any constructed drama between Perrin Egwene and Rand

In Rafe's defense, there were hints in TEOTW. I read those as a product of Egwene's mind being a little messed up, which is completely valid in the circumstances. An interesting parallel would be that Harry/Hermione dance (a beautiful scene) that had half of Harry Potter fandom squeeing and the other half incensed :).

However, it's really subtle in the books and doesn't go anywhere, which quite often happens IRL. Rafe's decision to make more out of it is questionable, but he didn't conjure it out of thin air.

[Rsmithboeing]

Well I returned after just writing off this subject. I need to stick with feeling that so much in the books was changed between it and, the series that Rafe isn't the fan of the books that he claims to be.

Hell the costume designer couldn't bother getting cloaks or wigs for the actors. Rafe didn't bother even sticking to real cause of corruption to the male half of the power.

Loial was "in comparison to his real height" little more than a fat hobbit and, those are simple things to get right.

 

It's ridiculous to even have this conversation. Sorry but, true. Nothing I've read in this discussion explains reasonably why the books weren't followed.

 

It's only people who either like or are disgusted by the series.

 

Entertaining but, not reasons why.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Rsmithboeing

[RextheDog]

9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

The leashes will get tangled, the actors will not move in unison and will be pushed or pulled off balance. 

 

isnt that the point though?....to keep to the script.....

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

Rafe didn't bother even sticking to real cause of corruption to the male half of the power.

I don’t follow. What did Rafe change about the cause of corruption to the male half of the power?

[Guire]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t follow. What did Rafe change about the cause of corruption to the male half of the power?

He probably hasnt changed it but he gave a strong impression the cause was arrogant men seeking power vs a counterstroke by DO to a semi successful desperate attempt to save the world.

[DigificWriter]

6 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

in the book there is never any constructed drama between Perrin Egwene and Rand

 

And there wasn't any in the show, either, which is my point.

 

Rather than recognizing that Nynaeve's accusation towards Rand and Perrin was intended to demonstrate her fallibility and impulsivity, people - both book readers and show-only viewers - took what she said at face value and consequently came away with an erroneous conclusion that the show was saying something about the relationship between the two boys in question and Egwene that it wasn't.

Edited August 19, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

He probably hasnt changed it but he gave a strong impression the cause was arrogant men seeking power vs a counterstroke by DO to a semi successful desperate attempt to save the world.

Other than the “arrogant men” part, which part of that is wrong? And does the fact that others perceive LTT as arrogant in his actions necessarily make them wrong? 

I think people are jumping the gun a bit and presupposing an outcome. It’s fair to worry about it being headed toward a particular message, but let’s give it a chance to play out before we decide that it’s already there. There is a lot of ground to cover between now and the last battle. 

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Other than the “arrogant men” part, which part of that is wrong? And does the fact that others perceive LTT as arrogant in his actions necessarily make them wrong? 

I think people are jumping the gun a bit and presupposing an outcome. It’s fair to worry about it being headed toward a particular message, but let’s give it a chance to play out before we decide that it’s already there. There is a lot of ground to cover between now and the last battle. 

 

Especially when you consider that the theme is intentionally book-ended in the show.  Moiraine starts the series by telling us it was caused by the arrogance of the Dragon.  Then we see the conversation between LTT and LPD.  And then we see Moiraine showing that exact same arrogance in her and Suians plan.

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I know it never happened, hence pseudo, but the fact is in the book there is never any constructed drama between Perrin Egwene and Rand, for me it added nothing. It was also badly scripted and the acting wasn’t much better. It felt more like a CW show than high fantasy. 
 

I am in no way saying it was all bad but, I think we need to be honest that bit of writing was indicative of the main issue. I am fine with the changes that were made, to lord, plot and characters largely. For me, having just rewatched it, the biggest issue is how bad some of the acting and dialogue was and for me this whole scene including Rand “storming off” just felt very contrived. 

 

I do wonder how much of that scene was in the original script.  The entire arguement was caused by Mat being left behind.  If Barney Harris hadn't dropped out of the show would we have had that scene?  I imagine we would have had some form of the E5 aruging about whether they should go to the eye or not but would it have included the "drama"

 

It is quite possible that it was a late rewrite to fill up time that would have been used on Mat.

[DaddyFinn]

5 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

Rafe didn't bother even sticking to real cause of corruption to the male half of the power.

Because Liandrin said "men make it filthy"?

[DigificWriter]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

Especially when you consider that the theme is intentionally book-ended in the show.  Moiraine starts the series by telling us it was caused by the arrogance of the Dragon.  Then we see the conversation between LTT and LPD.  And then we see Moiraine showing that exact same arrogance in her and Suians plan.

 

 

I do wonder how much of that scene was in the original script.  The entire arguement was caused by Mat being left behind.  If Barney Harris hadn't dropped out of the show would we have had that scene?  I imagine we would have had some form of the E5 aruging about whether they should go to the eye or not but would it have included the "drama"

 

It is quite possible that it was a late rewrite to fill up time that would have been used on Mat.

 

A year ago, WoTTuber Lezbi Nerdy posted a WoT rewatch video titled "Things I Missed in Wheel of Time, Episode 7: The Dark Along the Ways" in which she pointed out something that throws a wrench into what the deeper WoT fandom thinks they know vis a vis Episodes 6 & 7 and Barney Harris' departure. 

 

In said video, she points out that in the Episode 7 scenes set in the Ways, Perrin has dreads in his hair but not in the scenes set in Fal  meaning that those Ways-set scenes would have had to have been filmed prior to the COVID shutdown, which in turn means one of two things:

1) as Lezbi Nerdy postulates, the scenes in the Ways were filmed with Barney Harris present, necessitating rewrites and re-edits that were far more extensive and complex than anybody realized

 

Or

 

2) Episode 6 always ended with Mat choosing not to enter the Ways, and he would have probably ended up in Fal Dara separately from his friends (possibly in the company of Padan Fain)

 

Personally, I've been leaning towards Option 2 since first seeing Lezbi Nerdy's video on Thursday evening, largely because it matches with the earlier narrative trajectory of the show and with what the video from Lezbi Nerdy points out better than the notion that there were massive rewrites, rewrites, reshoots, and re-edits required after Barney chose to bow out of the project during the production shutdown.

[Rsmithboeing]

19 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t follow. What did Rafe change about the cause of corruption to the male half of the power?

😂🤣😂

 

Seriously LOL

Read the books LOL

Decided instead of just laughing about the comment on mine that I should just answer.

 

The male half of the power "which just like the female half, counter parts can't actually see," was corrupted when the dark one was sealed back in the prison the creator put him in.

 

Made the comment about male and, female not actually seeing their counterparts power because, well just another easy thing to both explain and, implement that wasn't done.

 

Men don't make the power "dirty," it was corrupted then Lewis Therin and, the 100 companions tried "saving" the world.

 

You know Lewis Therin a male always reborn as a "male." 

 

The Dragon Reborn was "never" female. Not once.

Also easy and, no cost involved in getting that right.

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Rsmithboeing

[Rsmithboeing]

The "books" cover sacrifice, mistakes, and, choosing the right path, the noble path even if it isn't easy.

Rafe made it about relationships that never even happened in the books.

Regardless of the people who enjoy the series or, those like me who hated it.

When I searched up the guy on the internet 2 things stood out. 1 the series and, second pissing on the Survivor helicopter.

Niether imo are things he should be proud about.

 

But, just my point of view.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Rsmithboeing

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, Guire said:

He probably hasnt changed it but he gave a strong impression the cause was arrogant men seeking power vs a counterstroke by DO to a semi successful desperate attempt to save the world.

I mean this matches the books pretty closely. Rand states several times once he has Lewis Therins memories that Lewis failed because the male and female channelers didn’t work together. He also states that this was, in part, due to Lewis therins own arrogance. The scenes we have seen so far don’t show men seeking power, it shows Lewis Therin insisting he is right and taking the world down a path of destruction. 
 

Narratively this is going to work well as it mirrors the very similar journey Rand takes in the middle. Becoming more and more arrogant, convinced he is right. From a story perspective they can show the similarities between the 2 leading the (non book watching audience), to feel that tension as they see Rand making similar mistakes leading, as they see it, to a repeat of the breaking. 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/19/2023 at 10:20 AM, Elglin said:

In Rafe's defense, there were hints in TEOTW. I read those as a product of Egwene's mind being a little messed up, which is completely valid in the circumstances. An interesting parallel would be that Harry/Hermione dance (a beautiful scene) that had half of Harry Potter fandom squeeing and the other half incensed :).

However, it's really subtle in the books and doesn't go anywhere, which quite often happens IRL. Rafe's decision to make more out of it is questionable, but he didn't conjure it out of thin air.

I mean the main thing I see in TEOTW is when they are traveling Perrin becomes concerned when she is with the tinkers, but I always saw that as a big brother combined with looking out for Rand. 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/18/2023 at 1:49 AM, Samt said:

I’m not sure I really get the symbolic difference between a leash and a muzzle. Both are things you put on a dog and are dehumanizing.  My main objection to the change is that it feels like a meaningless change that the showrunners are making to prove to the book fans that they can do whatever they want and they don’t care what fans think.  
 

A man tells a woman that he loves her deeply and that he just wants her to cut and dye her hair, lose 20 lbs, change her clothing and makeup style, quit her job, learn to cook, convert to his religion, adopt his political views, and indulge his weird sexual fetishes. Rafe saying he loves Wheel of Time has the same energy.

Just to back up some other points, I have always considered the actual logistics of the leash to make them horrendous. It reads great on paper when you don’t have to visually see it. I spent a long part of my life in a lifestyle where you would be around many people on leashes, and just navigating around a room was sometimes more an art in choreography than anything else. One or 2 Damme on screen, not an issue, the hundreds we will build to, the scenes of damme running or fighting. You get to a point where it will just look stupid. It really was one artistic element RJ came up with that sounds amazing, but, actually try using it and I imagine the Seanchan would have tried creating something different after the first time a group of damme got tangled in a battle. 

[DaddyFinn]

Since the book-leash is a physical object, couldn't their enemies just channel heavily to it (lift up, push down, twist side to side etc.) to try and incapacitate the sul'dam&damane or distract their channeling?

 

Or is a'dam one of those ter'angreal that direct weaves can't touch?

Edited August 20, 2023 by DaddyFinn

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Rsmithboeing said:

😂🤣😂

 

Seriously LOL

Read the books LOL

Decided instead of just laughing about the comment on mine that I should just answer.

 

The male half of the power "which just like the female half, counter parts can't actually see," was corrupted when the dark one was sealed back in the prison the creator put him in.

 

Made the comment about male and, female not actually seeing their counterparts power because, well just another easy thing to both explain and, implement that wasn't done.

 

Men don't make the power "dirty," it was corrupted then Lewis Therin and, the 100 companions tried "saving" the world.

 

You know Lewis Therin a male always reborn as a "male." 

 

The Dragon Reborn was "never" female. Not once.

Also easy and, no cost involved in getting that right.

 

Ok again someone is conflating what characters think they know to actual lore. 
 

In the books no one really knows how the make half was corrupted, they just know it was and assume the dark lord did it somehow. This has not changed in the tv show in any way. Please identify where it has.

 

It has been confirmed that men and women can’t see each others half of the power, just because we can see it on screen does not mean the characters can. 
 

The dragon is a male, it is Rand, and yes ok in this version souls can be reborn different genders, but that does not significantly change anything because the emphasis is that they “can” not will, and over the millions of years that the wheel may turn over and over can you say absolutely that every time the dark lord escapes it is always a man who saves the world. We know that the wheel turns differently each time, each breaking might not involve the male half being corrupted, or any of the events of this turning. 
 

Changes were made for the very practical needs of converting a very convoluted book to a succinct tv show. All the points you state actually have no impact on the overarching story anyway. Why does it matter if they changed the reason for the taint (they haven’t by the way), how does it matter to the story of souls can be reborn in different genders. In this turning no characters have switched gender so it doesn’t, you have seen season 1 of hopefully 8, there should be no journey or real character development yet. Season 1 has to be about showing all the relationships between characters. Robert Jordan had the benefit of 3-4 books to do that. Rafe needed to get it all laid out in 8 episodes covering that first story. 
 

I have made this point many times but, the only thing that is important is that Rand is at the last battle as the dragon and the other key characters are in there places. How they get there will have to change because the story is too long. Much like Peter Jackson made significant changes to adapt LOTR rage has to do the same. Now we might debate the pros and cons of those choices but claiming that someone commits themselves to a career defining project for at least 8 years of there lives in order to try and destroy the IP intentionally really is just a dumb supposition. 

[Scarloc99]

14 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Since the book-leash is a physical object, couldn't their enemies just channel heavily to it (lift up, push down, twist side to side etc.) to try and incapacitate the sul'dam&damane or distract their channeling?

 

Or is a'dam one of those ter'angreal that direct weaves can't touch?

Or just find ways to tangle them up. Another comparison is going on a walk with more than 1 dog on leads. No matter how well trained the dogs are you always have at least one tangled moment lol. 
 

But also, the leash clearly shows who the sul damne is so your archers know exactly who to target. 
 

I almost (and it won’t happen) want a dead pool type 4th all break where a Seanchan character says “these used to be leashes but we just kept getting terribly tangled” lol. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

57 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Just to back up some other points, I have always considered the actual logistics of the leash to make them horrendous. It reads great on paper when you don’t have to visually see it. I spent a long part of my life in a lifestyle where you would be around many people on leashes, and just navigating around a room was sometimes more an art in choreography than anything else. One or 2 Damme on screen, not an issue, the hundreds we will build to, the scenes of damme running or fighting. You get to a point where it will just look stupid. It really was one artistic element RJ came up with that sounds amazing, but, actually try using it and I imagine the Seanchan would have tried creating something different after the first time a group of damme got tangled in a battle. 

Good points. Also, in the books isn’t it eventually revealed that the leash is actually not necessary to facilitating the forced link? Regardless of whether the seanchan themselves in the books believe or are aware of this fact doesn’t change the inherent reality. My point being that if in fact the leash is not actually functional in book canon, it’s reasonable to understand why the show runners eliminated the potentially cumbersome detail in the show while still keeping with the overall theme of one class of society being utterly controlled and enslaved and subservient to another. Silly example and probably not exactly comparable, but should period pieces that take place in a time where people accepted as fact that the earth was flat then be portrayed on screen as taking place on a flat earth? Oh yikes…some people still believe the earth is flat…

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

39 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Or just find ways to tangle them up. Another comparison is going on a walk with more than 1 dog on leads. No matter how well trained the dogs are you always have at least one tangled moment lol. 
 

But also, the leash clearly shows who the sul damne is so your archers know exactly who to target. 
 

I almost (and it won’t happen) want a dead pool type 4th all break where a Seanchan character says “these used to be leashes but we just kept getting terribly tangled” lol. 

I don’t have a strong need to see the leashes on screen, especially compared to other things I would personally consider more impactful for the story, but having said that I do wonder how the viewers will be able to connect who is controlling who. Although maybe it doesn’t really matter 🤷‍♀️

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I do wonder how the viewers will be able to connect who is controlling who.

Maybe a'dam doesn't have a long working range? Who knows at this point