Rewatching season 1 before season 2 starts

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I still think they can do better with the wolves. The Wolves look more like dogs to me, its fantasy give me bad ass wolves.

They use czech wolfs/ wolf dogs. I rather have more smaller non-CGI wolfs than a lot less of traditional big forest wolfs.

 

https://www.wotseries.com/2020/06/16/meet-the-wheel-of-time-wolves/

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I understand COVID and loosing Matt hurt, but does not explain what I see as just bad writing.

It does, though. Because the scenes had to be rewritten from scratch. They had to make sense but sacrifice a major character and account for mandatory social distancing by the actors. And they had to do it on a compressed time schedule. 
 

In hindsight, it would have been better to wait on releasing season one. But no one really knew that at the time. 

[Guire]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

They use czech wolfs/ wolf dogs. I rather have more smaller non-CGI wolfs than a lot less of traditional big forest wolfs.

 

https://www.wotseries.com/2020/06/16/meet-the-wheel-of-time-wolves/

I completely understand the decision as a business decision.  Its not the size that is totally the issue.  Wolves come in different sizes and shapes worldwide.  Wolves and coyotes just dont act like dogs.  The trained czech dogs used act like trained dogs even with their wolfish appearance.  Wolves have a way of moving that is cautious and menacing at the same time.  Their heads stay low and they are alwayd low key on alert.  Its very similar to how soldiers get a thousand yard stare. Its the acceptance and ease of violence as your best tool.  Its why I wanted Elyas in season 1.  He was the counter to the way of the leaf.  I am not sure if show creaatives understand this importance.  Its why I am afraid we are going to get goofy soldiers, labradoodle warders, and loving wolf dogs.  Its a small change but I think reflective of the priorities of show's creatives.  

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

I completely understand the decision as a business decision.  Its not the size that is totally the issue.  Wolves come in different sizes and shapes worldwide.  Wolves and coyotes just dont act like dogs.  The trained czech dogs used act like trained dogs even with their wolfish appearance.  Wolves have a way of moving that is cautious and menacing at the same time.  Their heads stay low and they are alwayd low key on alert.  Its very similar to how soldiers get a thousand yard stare. Its the acceptance and ease of violence as your best tool.  Its why I wanted Elyas in season 1.  He was the counter to the way of the leaf.  I am not sure if show creaatives understand this importance.  Its why I am afraid we are going to get goofy soldiers, labradoodle warders, and loving wolf dogs.  Its a small change but I think reflective of the priorities of show's creatives.  

The only solution then is CGI wolves. Which cost huge amounts of money and even then can just look bad. Also by committing to 2-3 CGI wolf for early scenes you are making a world of financial hurt for yourself when it comes to scenes involving dozens or more wolves. This for me is a decision I am happy with. 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

The only solution then is CGI wolves. Which cost huge amounts of money and even then can just look bad. Also by committing to 2-3 CGI wolf for early scenes you are making a world of financial hurt for yourself when it comes to scenes involving dozens or more wolves. This for me is a decision I am happy with. 

I would have went with having 2 or 3 trained wolves or wolf hybrids and lots of theatre of the mind.  We need lots of good Hopper but other wolf interactions can be howls, growls, movement sounds of screen.  some distance cgi for battles.  glimpses that dont have to be fully fleshed out.  I think we already saw the wolf dogs didnt really work out as hoped in White Cloak attack so they had to do more theatre of mind than they wanted.  They have spent tons on intricatr sets to tear them down and costuming.  In the grand scheme of funding this show its priorities. I am assuming animal stunts is a drop in bucket compared to costuming and wigs.  I am joking here but not completely.

[Samt]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

I would have went with having 2 or 3 trained wolves or wolf hybrids and lots of theatre of the mind.  We need lots of good Hopper but other wolf interactions can be howls, growls, movement sounds of screen.  some distance cgi for battles.  glimpses that dont have to be fully fleshed out.  I think we already saw the wolf dogs didnt really work out as hoped in White Cloak attack so they had to do more theatre of mind than they wanted.  They have spent tons on intricatr sets to tear them down and costuming.  In the grand scheme of funding this show its priorities. I am assuming animal stunts is a drop in bucket compared to costuming and wigs.  I am joking here but not completely.

I don't know too much about the cost of various things that go into making a show, but it does seem like they spent an incredible amount of money and still ended up with a lot of parts that felt low budget and a bunch of other scenes from the book that were probably cut for budget reasons.  Where did $100 million go?  

[Scarloc99]

23 minutes ago, Samt said:

I don't know too much about the cost of various things that go into making a show, but it does seem like they spent an incredible amount of money and still ended up with a lot of parts that felt low budget and a bunch of other scenes from the book that were probably cut for budget reasons.  Where did $100 million go?  

Reportedly a lot of money was invested in sets that will be used right through the series, so Tar Valon, Emonds Field, and costumes, outfits and effects that will be able to be reused over and over in the future. I have a friend who works in TV and has worked on amongst other things Dr Who and GOT and he said that a new fantasy or Sci Fi tv show Incurs more costs in season 1 because the team are learning the best ways to do things and building large reusable sets that will then save them cost in the future. He said that the CGI side then also takes more investment as the team figure out how they want things like magic to look on screen from first principles. In future they can then take all that work and build on it iteratively season to season for far less cost. 
 

Also let’s not underestimate the financial burden of Covid. The team may have held back a large part of the budget to give us an impressive looking final 2 episodes and for added CGI only to have that blown out the water and the budget be swallowed up by Covid protocols and any hopes of a large scale battle lost when combatants had to stay 2 feet apart. 

[Guire]

Covid definately ruined lots of best layed plans for entertainment projects.  I would be really interested in a rough breakdown on costs for show.  I think Amazon made an understandable but ultimately poor choice building the giant studio in Prague.  Lots of scenes feel like redressings in same circular soundstage.  I get they may be trying to be clever with wheel motif but many scenes feel like I am watching a play. 

 

It would be nice to see what show season 1 would have been with 12 episodes and normal situation with filming and editing. I think a few added scenes like Moraine and Tam discussing need for EF5 to leave EF, a bit more of Aes Sedai camp before dragonsworn attack, and better paced more tense lead up to Shadar Logoth would have probably garnered more award type attention.  Use the more experienced talent for exposition like they did but more, and give us small day to day slices that tie us emotionally to EF5.  I know they did both these things but pacing generally made it feel forced. 

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

13 hours ago, Guire said:

I would have went with having 2 or 3 trained wolves or wolf hybrids and lots of theatre of the mind.  We need lots of good Hopper but other wolf interactions can be howls, growls, movement sounds of screen.  some distance cgi for battles.  glimpses that dont have to be fully fleshed out.  I think we already saw the wolf dogs didnt really work out as hoped in White Cloak attack so they had to do more theatre of mind than they wanted.  They have spent tons on intricatr sets to tear them down and costuming.  In the grand scheme of funding this show its priorities. I am assuming animal stunts is a drop in bucket compared to costuming and wigs.  I am joking here but not completely.

I agree totally, hopefully they will make changes when Hopper is introduced 

[DigificWriter]

6 hours ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I agree totally, hopefully they will make changes when Hopper is introduced

 

I'm 99% certain that Hopper is the lead wolf that Perrin interacted with in Season 1.

[Guire]

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I'm 99% certain that Hopper is the lead wolf that Perrin interacted with in Season 1.

I wonder if Perrin will get separated like eg and him did at some point with Elyas and wolf telepathy formally introduced.  Then later Hopper killed by White Cloaks and spirit Hopper gives us Wolf Dream/Tel exposition.  Do you think we get disembodied voice or some kind of visual language for wolves?

[Elder_Haman]

A few more thoughts on the re-watch:

 

The pacing of E1 could have been improved by moving the Rand/Egwene romance to the beginning of the episode and locating it outside. Rand and Egwene could have had romantic time together and then argued about the upcoming ceremony. It would have also been a good time to slip in a quick glimpse of a Fade. Getting a quick look at a Fade before Lan entered the Winespring would have been a better tension amplifier for that scene and brought out the more horror-y aspects.

 

E2 was a really good episode right up to the end when the VFX let us down in Shadar Logoth. Also, I hate how they did Lan dirty at the end. Nynaeve sneaking up on him was unnecessary and diminishes Lan's badassery.

 

E3 was also a really good episode. Love Thom. Noted that Rand pulls away from the Darkfriend trying to seduce him (foreshadowing?). Good episode all the way through, but... I would have had the Aes Sedai be preparing to capture Logain rather than already having captured him. Because...

 

The fight in E4 was just messy. If it had been a snatch and grab on Logain's camp, that would have still allowed them to demonstrate cool Aes Sedai stuff. Logain could have still killed Karene (during the initial shielding) and they could scrap the Nynaeve mass healing, which was really unnecessary. I would have had her "accidentally" heal one person near Lan (if it had to be him), which would be enough to explain why the Aes Sedai think she's so powerful, but not such a deus ex. The rest of E4 was pretty enjoyable - I especially liked the scene with Rand, Thom and Mat at the farm.

 

E5 was really good. I liked the Stepin arc quite a bit and think the writers did a pretty good job of setting up the tower politics.

 

E6 was okay. 

 

I forgive the writers for episodes 7 and 8 which were just sort of a wreck because of COVID and Barney Harris's absence.  

[DigificWriter]

 

58 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

episodes 7 and 8 which were just sort of a wreck because of COVID and Barney Harris's absence.

 

I no longer think we can say with 100% certainty that either of those things had as much of an effect on Episode 7 as we thought they did.

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I no longer think we can say with 100% certainty that either of those things had as much of an effect on Episode 7 as we thought they did.

What did I miss? To me, it seemed pretty obvious that there was some Mat stuff missing from E7. I mean the way they cut the group parting at the Ways was pretty blatant.

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What did I miss? To me, it seemed pretty obvious that there was some Mat stuff missing from E7. I mean the way they cut the group parting at the Ways was pretty blatant.

and the art attached to the ep all has him in the ways with them

 

(and the trefoil leaf to open them, though I don't know why that was cut) 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Ralph

[DigificWriter]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What did I miss? To me, it seemed pretty obvious that there was some Mat stuff missing from E7. I mean the way they cut the group parting at the Ways was pretty blatant.

 

WoTTuber LezbiNerdy figured out that, at the very least, all of the scenes in the Ways were shot prior to the COVID shutdown and Barney's departure, which calls into question whether or not anything from those scenes was in fact reshot and whether or not Mat actually ever entered the Ways at all in the original scripts for Episodes 6 and 7.

[Ralph]

the concept art all shows him with them. and I think. with Min in the bar also. so I don't think can be true

[Ralph]

one in the ways clearly with eight individuals. one in the ways has a body on the floor don't know what that is

 

one in the bar looks like meant to be Mat

 

[Ralph]

this one at the Fal Dara way gate also had him

[DigificWriter]

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

the concept art all shows him with them. and I think. with Min in the bar also. so I don't think can be true

 

To quote LezbiNerdy, "the evidence is there, it's in Perrin's hair", referencing the fact that Perrin has dreads in his hair in all of the scenes set in the Ways in Episode 7 but doesn't have dreads in his hair in any of the scenes in Episode 7 that are set in Fal Dara or in any of his brief scenes from Episode 8.

 

It's entirely possible that Mat was indeed with them when the Ways scenes were shot, but it's no longer a guaranteed certainty in my mind.

[Scarloc99]

12 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

E2 was a really good episode right up to the end when the VFX let us down in Shadar Logoth. Also, I hate how they did Lan dirty at the end. Nynaeve sneaking up on him was unnecessary and diminishes Lan's badassery.

I made this point a while back in the books Nyn sneaks up on Lan and surprises him. So this is a direct callback to the books. He gives her a massive nod of respect for both that, and being able to track him. It is the start of him seeing her as more then just another aes sedai apprentice. 

[Vartija]

Rewatched Episode 1 last night.

 

I never really disliked the episode as much as some in the fanbase did. I still think it's ok for the most part, with some pacing issues especially towards the end. What I especially like about it is the carefree camaraderie between the boys which doesn't really appear in the rest of the season. The way Rand & Perrin chip in to help Mat's money issues for example. 

 

The episode looks beautiful as well which is something I didn't quite appreciate on first watch. The landscape really is quite stunning with the mountains. 

 

One might hate the changes when it comes to Mat's parents or Perrin having a wife, but to me it was at least done well enough that it didn't feel out of place within the show universe. 

 

The fight scenes looked good as well. I'm now more appreciative of Lan's effort during the fight. Some gripe about Tam "losing" against only one trolloc but the trolloc looked fierce enough that it doesn't look like incompetense on Tam's part imo. The rest of the villagers are able to hold their own but it looks more like a mad scramble on their part, and mostly it's with several villagers against one trolloc, and Moiraine at least once saves the girls from certain death.

 

On the negative side it's a bit hard to overlook some logical issues like Lan & Moiraine not telling anyone that there were trollocs around the town before the attack. The casual mention of "rumours of four ta'veren" still doesn't make much sense. To me the biggest negative is still the rushed ending and the casualness with which the EF4 react to Moiraine claiming one of them is the Dragon. Also Rand's accusatory tone towards Moiraine right after she healed Tam felt really out of place. 

 

The scene where Lan introduces Moiraine looked kind of awkward but I think the original idea might have been to show one of the black riders before that scene which would lead the viewers to think a bad guy was walking into the inn. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Vartija
typos

[Gary Again]

I'm getting excited it's been a long wait but I really like the clip of the dark friend social and I like the clues similar to the books it's going to be interesting to see people try and guess that didn't read the books as I thought they did a good job with these. Also something that I think RJ did a great job with in the books is using people's perspective to show things in an interesting way like the seanchan general that assumed Thom was leading the band, the tinker messenger for Moraine that sees the camp in the mountains, Tuon watching Mat reunite with the band. I feel like this scene was a well done nod to that as it was a great perspective to see the meeting through and then just the tension wondering if Ishy is actually going to feed a child to a trolloc was great and then it's kind of sinister and impressive the control he has over the trollocs I thought it was really well done.

 

Also feel like Ishy is a high point of the show I think he wasn't really effectively used in the books and kind of cartoonish at the beginning but I really like how this guy is playing him. Across the board I've been really impressed with the acting, I think Ishy, Valda, Logain, Siuan, Liandrin, Fain and Thom are all exceptional and whoever is doing casting is consistently knocking it out of the park. 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Gary Again

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Vartija said:

The rest of the villagers are able to hold their own but it looks more like a mad scramble on their part, and mostly it's with several villagers against one trolloc, and Moiraine at least once saves the girls from certain death.

It was definitely a mad scramble. Everyone was panicking. But something a LOT of people missed...

 

The Trollocs were actively targeting all the men that were above or below the age of the person they were looking for, and killing them.

 

They were stealing people that were the right age, presumably those that were tagged by Fain.

And they were taking women that were of age to bring back with them.

Going back and reviewing that scene I picked up these time stamps...

Quote

• 33:53: Tom takes arrow to the chest, then axe in the back.
• 34:23 - Man holding Pitchfork against a trolloc.
• 34:41 - Man stabbed against wall
• 35:20 - Woman being dragged away
• 35:21 - man on ground with trolloc being snuggle hugged to death
• 35:30 - As Matrim is running, another man is killed in front of him.
• 35:32 - Trolloc yeets a man above his head by a building near Matrim, while another man in the background falls on his face. (Cenn?)
• 35:43 - We see several men on the ground injured.
• 35:46 - we see someone, maybe a Man with a Torch and an axe? Fighting on the left hand side of the screen? Behind Eggs and Nyn.
• 36:16 - Someone on the ground getting Trolloc stomped. Maybe man, maybe female. Behind that trolloc is a possible man with a torch. Behind that person is a Man fighting a Trolloc?
• 36:18 - We see several more Men fighting in this scene.
• 38:41 - here we see Lan & Moiraine way in the back. The 3rd figure is a Man fighting off a Trolloc.
• 39:31 - We see Daise stand up to a Trolloc

 

So it is worth noting that there were several villagers fighting against the Trollocs, not just running around afraid before Daise rallied the women's circle to take down a couple. 

I'm pretty sure most of those villagers 1v1 those trollocs were among the dead or injured to.

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Vartija said:

Rewatched Episode 1 last night.

 

I never really disliked the episode as much as some in the fanbase did. I still think it's ok for the most part, with some pacing issues especially towards the end. What I especially like about it is the carefree camaraderie between the boys which doesn't really appear in the rest of the season. The way Rand & Perrin chip in to help Mat's money issues for example. 

 

The episode looks beautiful as well which is something I didn't quite appreciate on first watch. The landscape really is quite stunning with the mountains. 

 

One might hate the changes when it comes to Mat's parents or Perrin having a wife, but to me it was at least done well enough that it didn't feel out of place within the show universe. 

 

The fight scenes looked good as well. I'm now more appreciative of Lan's effort during the fight. Some gripe about Tam "losing" against only one trolloc but the trolloc looked fierce enough that it doesn't look like incompetense on Tam's part imo. The rest of the villagers are able to hold their own but it looks more like a mad scramble on their part, and mostly it's with several villagers against one trolloc, and Moiraine at least once saves the girls from certain death.

 

On the negative side it's a bit hard to overlook some logical issues like Lan & Moiraine not telling anyone that there were trollocs around the town before the attack. The casual mention of "rumours of four ta'veren" still doesn't make much sense. To me the biggest negative is still the rushed ending and the casualness with which the EF4 react to Moiraine claiming one of them is the Dragon. Also Rand's accusatory tone towards Moiraine right after she healed Tam felt really out of place. 

 

The scene where Lan introduces Moiraine looked kind of awkward but I think the original idea might have been to show one of the black riders before that scene which would lead the viewers to think a bad guy was walking into the inn. 

Biggest problem with the fight scene for me (other than the look of the trollocs) - A trolloc was charging Moiraine from behind, Lan sees this and throws a large dagger at the trolloc.  I'll give Lan the kill in this fun choreographed fantasy battle, but the trolloc flew backwards!  There is no way.