Snakes and Foxes

[mègon]

"Well," Olver muttered, "we almost won. Another game, Mat?" Not waiting for an answer, he made the sign that opened the game, a triangle and then a wavy line through it, then chanted the words. "'Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.' Mat, why do we say that? There is no fire, no music and no iron."

 

So here's what we know about Snakes and Foxes so far:

1 - You can't win unless you cheat.

2 - It was created for remembrance of how to deal with the 'finn (as revealed by Brigitte)

3 - Snakes are a piece shaped like a wavy line.

4 - Foxes are a piece shaped like a triangle.

5 - You open the game by making that sign and saying the words (as quoted above).

6 - When you roll for the S&F you move them towards your pieces by the shortest path possible.

 

What we know of the 'Finns (in brief)

1 - One looks like snakes, the other like foxes

2 - Snakes answer questions, Foxes grant requests/wishes

3 - You get 3 from each (questions or wishes)

4 - Matt was able to get more than 3 questions answered somehow

5 - Foxes you must bargain for a price

6 - Worlds are funny and skewed

7 - The ToG (the silver one Slayer runs to) gives admittance to there world

8 - There is a treaty for using the doorways that you will bring no instrument for making music, nothing to make fire, and no iron.

 

Now here are my questions, the information above is enough to show my PoV.

 

Is the symbol that you make to open the game, the triable with a wavy line inside, the symbol on the portal stone that represents the 'finn world or just a representation of the triangle and wavy line pieces that represent the different 'finn species?

 

The chant is a symbol, or reminder, of what you must do in order to win against the 'finn in RL. Why was it so important (other than that we know Moraine must be saved from them) that this fact is remembered?

 

How was Matt able to get more than 3 answers out of them? They were freaking out because of the 2 ta'veren being in there at the same time, and all that, but that doesn't mean that he should get more just because they want him to leave.

 

Mainly, though, I'm curious as to whether the 'finns are from the other worlds that exist on the wheel and can be reach via portal stone or if they are some creature made by the power when the ToG and the doorway ter'angreal were made.

 

(edits to fix some typos)

[Jarred Darque]

Wasnt the triangle and wavy lines one of the symbols on the portal stone in tGH? I think they gave Mat more answers because the need to get him out was so dire and urgent. They woulda done just aobut anyhting to get him to shut up and get movin

[mègon]

Wasnt the triangle and wavy lines one of the symbols on the portal stone in tGH? I think they gave Mat more answers because the need to get him out was so dire and urgent. They woulda done just aobut anyhting to get him to shut up and get movin

 

See, that's what I'm wondering. I'm wondering, and I can't remember, so I was asking here, if it was a portal stone symbol or not.

 

Also, as I recall, they did do everything in their power. They picked him up and bodily threw him out of the doorway. They could've done that before they threw the "Son of Battles" out, but they answered, then man handled him, so I'm wondering if it was something else.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mainly, though, I'm curious as to whether the 'finns are from the other worlds that exist on the wheel and can be reach via portal stone or if they are some creature made by the power when the ToG and the doorway ter'angreal were made.

 

According to Wotmania.com, (which says these answers were given at Dragoncon 2005), here are some questions answered by Jordan:

 

Q: Do the Finns inhabit a perpendicular world?

A: No, it is a parallel world. (My note: this would mean it could be accesible through a Portal Stone.)

 

Q: Does the physical location of the world of Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta’veren were in together?

A: No.

 

Q: Have the Finns existed as long as the Wheel?

A: Yes. (My note: Which means they weren't created when the Tower of Ghenjei was made, or by the creation of the ter'angreal doorways)

 

Q: Do they have souls?

A: Yes.

 

Q: Are the Finns from human stock?

A: No.

 

Q: Did they originate in their current location?

A: Yes.

 

Q: Are they related to T’A’R or do they control T’A’R?

A: No.

 

(from here: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=25)

[Phiotr AlManera]

You ask a lot off questions that cannot be answered I think, mègon.

The portal stone question. I could be although I doubt it now I'm thinking about it. Only one argument:

"From Stone to Stone run the lines of 'if,' between the worlds that might be."

Finnland isn't something that might be, it's something that is. So, perhaps if you go the a parallel world, there might be a Finnland there too.

I would be inclined to say that some AoL AS discovered Finnland by studying the Portal Stones.

This is a fact we also know about Finnland. At some point in time, it was discovered by AS. These made the treaty wich, as do all treaties, are mutually beneficial. Both sides gain from it.

As for your other questions,... :(

[Luckers]

How was Matt able to get more than 3 answers out of them? They were freaking out because of the 2 ta'veren being in there at the same time, and all that, but that doesn't mean that he should get more just because they want him to leave.

 

Why not? The Finns arn't bound to give three answers, its not a magical requirement. The number three was something they settled on in their agreement with us, the refusal to answer more is because it is pointless because the Finns get nothing out of answering more--they've already tied their claws into that persons experience for the rest of their lives.

 

But why do you think that they couldn't reveal more when placed under extreme presure, as, seemingly, the two ta'veren put them under.

 

The chant is a symbol, or reminder, of what you must do in order to win against the 'finn in RL. Why was it so important (other than that we know Moraine must be saved from them) that this fact is remembered?

 

Because it speaks to weapons that can be used against them. Certainly we know that at one stage relations between humans and Finns weren't as peaceful. The Finns wouldn't have signed an agreement if they could have simply taken what they wanted.

[missinginstereo]

But the cheat to win thing always bothered me. Book 4 had a line in it about using the banished items to win a game. Part of it was "music to mesmerize" and i forget the rest.

I wonder what this means in the real world, if perhaps there is a way to extract what you need from these people without paying the price.

[sombrastewart]

Music to dazzle, perhaps? Check the top of the first post.

[icspots]

 

Is the symbol that you make to open the game' date=' the triable with a wavy line inside, the symbol on the portal stone that represents the 'finn world or just a representation of the triangle and wavy line pieces that represent the different 'finn species?

 

The chant is a symbol, or reminder, of what you must do in order to win against the 'finn in RL. Why was it so important (other than that we know Moraine must be saved from them) that this fact is remembered?[/quote']

 

I don't think the symbol has anything but a coincidental resemblence to the symbol on the portal stones. Birgette tells us that the entire game of snakes and foxes is to help people remember past dealings with them. The sign you make at the beginning of the game is how you enter the ToG, and the chant is to tell you what things you can use to 'cheat' with then Aelfinn and Eelfinn to beat them.

[missinginstereo]

Music to dazzle' date=' perhaps? Check the top of the first post.[/quote']

I know, but that wasn't what i was getting at. I was asking why it is that they fear these things. The whole quote had the thing and the effect like :music for dazzling.

What i am wondering is what happens when you play music infront of them or whatever.

[BrainFireBob]

Courage to strengthen, iron to bind, music to dazzle, and fire to blind.

 

Allright, to go off into oddness and speculation:

 

The Snakes and Foxes are snake- and fox-like.

 

Snake-charming. Music soothes the savage beast. Etc., etc.- music apparently has a hypnotic effect upon them.

 

Their eyes are apparently sensitive to fire- perhaps they see in the infrared most strongly, evidence their shying away from Rand's fire sword. Hence, fire blinds- literally.

 

Iron to bind- this is highly speculatory. One of the mythological elements missing from RJ's "shadowspawn" is an allergy to "cold iron." He has most of the other "magic" elements from mythological creatures, but not the iron allergy. I'd guess this applies to the Snakes and Foxes.

 

Courage to strengthen- this one, this one has two possible meanings. One- it strengthens you. Two- it strengthens them, flight is your friend, flee! The nature of the game would seem to lend credence to this.

 

Weird speculation: Three of the four items are "geometric" in nature- regular, modulated soundwaves, specific light wavelengths, and magnetic polarization (inducing matching polarization). Conclusion: It's the weird geometry of Finnland that makes these things so damaging to them.

 

Note that the game is laid out in a spiderweb, whereas one of the "two" Finn-realms is all curves, and one all straight lines- speculation, their world actually exists in a spiderweb formation, one group living on the "axis," one on the "spiral."

 

Perhaps the reason the Finns gain from the deal is that they can only exist within their own highly limited spacial geometry, but can accept experience by proxy.

 

Regardless- the game is go from the center to the edge and return. I would guess that that's the only way to enter and leave, due to the weird geometry of the place, in order to reach your starting place, you need to complete the cycle, because there is no "forward and backward."

 

Some jumbled thoughts to feed speculation!

[bhthomas88]

ok i finished reading the books a while ago and i dont have a copy of KOD so im not sure what Moraine said in her letter but she said that only 3 people can come so maybe that little saying is a Prophecy

 

music to dazzle = thom going since he is he one with musical skills

fire to blind = rand going since he can use the one power or if not rand some one that can use it maybe on of the seachan damane

iron to bind = mat going if iron is used as a symbol for weapons

and they all need courage to do it

no this could just be my crazy thinking but maybe someone way back long ago was trying to give a clue to what the group would need to save moraine in some visoin they had

[Angel of Death]

This is a little of topic.

 

I always get mixed when it comes to the Finns, which are which, are the Aelfinn the snakes or the foxes? No need to ask about the Eelfinn, since the above answer will answer that question also.

 

Thanks,

[Luckers]

The three that are going to rescue Moiraine are Thom, Mat and Noal.

[Phiotr AlManera]

fire to blind = rand going since he can use the one power or if not rand some one that can use it maybe on of the seachan damane

No, they have Aludra's fire sticks

 

Snake people are Aelfinn

[Elwinn Taron]

BrainFireBob, Thank you. I never made the connection about the curves and straight lines over-laying to make a spiderweb. Explains much.

[missinginstereo]

wow, thanks for the answers and theories. That's really got me thinking now.

[mègon]

Oh, that spider web is a good thought. I never did think of it.

 

And in support of the "No backwards, you have to go all the way out and all the way back". Those we've seen use the doorways go through and have to go all the way to the speakers then can go all the way back.

 

On a side note, my girlfriend's hands are really cold and she's putting them on my stomach.

 

But back on topic. Once they go all the way to the center, they can then go back to the entrances.

[Jaric Mondoran]

All you'll hear from me is that the upcoming feature film Escape From Finnland had better be good. It's been foreshadowed since TGH and Jordan seems obliged to toss another vision or bit of prophecy into each book indicating how important Moiraine's rescue is to the ultimate righteous beatdown of the Shadow; plus she's a major character, perhaps the most significant in Books 1-5 after the ta'veren and Wondergirls, and wacking her from the next 6 volumes had better involve a payoff at the end. In my opinion, the best action sequences in WoT take place with minimal foreshadowing (the Heroes of the Horn showing up at Falme, Lanfear losing it at the docks, etc.) and I'm doubtful that Jordan has it in him to write another passage as vivid as these. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, though.

 

 

Don't...don't...don't believe the hype.

[Joiya]

All you'll hear from me is that the upcoming feature film Escape From Finnland had better be good.

 

Hear, hear, Jaric!

 

What I'm suprised by is the fact that no one has brought up the parallels between the 'Finns and european Faerie folklore, aside from BrainFireBob's reference to cold iron. Call me silly (and I am), but after the first time I read "Courage to strengthen, iron to bind, music to dazzle, and fire to blind," all I could think about was Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies, which is technically a piece of humorous fiction, but is still chock full of actual legends.

 

When dealing with the fair folk, humans are always at a disadvantage. But only iron will kill them, music enchants them, and bright light blinds them.

 

Oh, and apologies if this is poorly written, but I am well into a bottle of my brother's excellent mead, and I've become quite a lightweight since I became a mom.

[Luckers]

The Finn are based in the celtics and norse myths of the sieghlie and unseighlie, two races akin to each other, one merely mischevious, the other deadly. And the connection has been made, and commented on, in the past.

[Joiya]

And the connection has been made, and commented on, in the past.

 

I'm aware, but it seemed too relevant to this particular discussion to have not come up on this thread yet. Sorry to be redundant and repetitive.