Show vs book, but I think the question best belongs with book fans

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

We have plenty of understandable reasons why the book fans, politely expressed, “dislike” the TV show. As someone who is new to the community and forums, this makes me wonder if there are or were the same criticisms from the fandom about the books. Anything the fandom is critical of about the books? I realize there are members of the fandom who separate bs from rj….so I guess I really want to know if any of you guys have things about the story rj told that you were critical of?

[wotfan4472]

Yes. There were equal discussions over the Brandon books vs the Robert books.

 

A number of readers disliked Brandon's writing in equal measure to what the show did.

 

Robert Jordan had the clear ability to place you in the moments of the story, which is why the descriptive writing was seen as either a really good thing, or an off putting one depending on whom you ask.

 

Brandon Sanderson, by comparison, showed a vast difference in writing. This meant that many situations, and characters were off when reading straight from a Robert Jordan book, and the most important comparison, is reading Knife Of Dreams, back to back with The Gathering Storm. Those two books shows a vast difference in how the story is told. 

 

What the show is doing is off putting to many, because the mediums are different. It is still telling the story, just using characters in different events to build what is happening, and building what is to come. Kerene and Stepin interacting with Logain is a direct case to this difference even being needed. You can even include Owain in this as well. Thom's nephew.

 

They were all chosen and revealed for a specific purpose, and it is because their fates would affect key characters at very important and vital moments in the story they are telling, and also world building in showing the cost of becoming an Aes Sedai, or a male channeller even using their abilities.

 

The stakes are high in the story, and they are only going to get higher as each season is done, and more dangers are revealed.

[Gypsum]

Not quite sure what you're asking, but if you read old threads on this forum and elsewhere, you'll see that plenty of people who loved the books acknowledge that they had their flaws. 90% of The Crossroads of Twilight (most of that 90% was characters having meetings...no one likes meetings). Letting the narrative get bogged down in overwrought descriptions (do we need to know about every stitch, type of fabric, and neckline on every dress or coat even the most minor character wears? No, we do not). Repetitive language (pick up a thesaurus next time you want to write "stout Two Rivers woollens"). Plot diversions that went on way longer than they should have done (Faile kidnapping). Jordan's fixation on men and women not understanding one another and gender being the primary reason for such misunderstandings (would work as a quirk of some characters, but everyone, from every culture in Randland? Why?).

 

It's a testament to the strength of Jordan's writing that despite these issues, the books are so popular and readable and have so many devoted fans. That said, on my reread, I speed read every paragraph that overdoes description on things that don't matter, like the exact layout of a pub or people's clothes.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Gypsum

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:18 AM, wotfan4472 said:

Yes. There were equal discussions over the Brandon books vs the Robert books.

 

A number of readers disliked Brandon's writing in equal measure to what the show did.

 

Robert Jordan had the clear ability to place you in the moments of the story, which is why the descriptive writing was seen as either a really good thing, or an off putting one depending on whom you ask.

 

Brandon Sanderson, by comparison, showed a vast difference in writing. This meant that many situations, and characters were off when reading straight from a Robert Jordan book, and the most important comparison, is reading Knife Of Dreams, back to back with The Gathering Storm. Those two books shows a vast difference in how the story is told. 

 

What the show is doing is off putting to many, because the mediums are different. It is still telling the story, just using characters in different events to build what is happening, and building what is to come. Kerene and Stepin interacting with Logain is a direct case to this difference even being needed. You can even include Owain in this as well. Thom's nephew.

 

They were all chosen and revealed for a specific purpose, and it is because their fates would affect key characters at very important and vital moments in the story they are telling, and also world building in showing the cost of becoming an Aes Sedai, or a male channeller even using their abilities.

 

The stakes are high in the story, and they are only going to get higher as each season is done, and more dangers are revealed.

Thank you for your post and for providing me with some perspective from a long term reader 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:06 AM, Gypsum said:

Not quite sure what you're asking, but if you read old threads on this forum and elsewhere, you'll see that plenty of people who loved the books acknowledge that they had their flaws. 90% of The Crossroads of Twilight (most of that 90% was characters having meetings...no one likes meetings). Letting the narrative get bogged down in overwrought descriptions (do we need to know about every stitch, type of fabric, and neckline on every dress or coat even the most minor character wears? No, we do not). Repetitive language (pick up a thesaurus next time you want to write "stout Two Rivers woollens"). Plot diversions that went on way longer than they should have done (Faile kidnapping). Jordan's fixation on men and women not understanding one another and gender being the primary reason for such misunderstandings (would work as a quirk of some characters, but everyone, from every culture in Randland? Why?).

 

It's a testament to the strength of Jordan's writing that despite these issues, the books are so popular and readable and have so many devoted fans. That said, on my reread, I speed read every paragraph that overdoes description on things that don't matter, like the exact layout of a pub or people's clothes.

Thank you so much for your perspective. You picked up on what I was essentially asking. As a relative newcomer to the series and a complete beginner to the forum, I’m extremely curious about how earlier fans experienced and interpreted WOT. I admit I am taking the lazy approach by asking questions via short cut rather than searching the archives, but I’ve had some trouble finding what I searched for. I appreciate your reply!

[Asthereal]

There's quite a few flaws to the Wheel of Time books that avid readers have been pointing out. I think even the most hardcore WoT fans would agree that the series has some problems. The main three:

 

-Jordan's repetitive desciptions. Tugging your braid, Nynaeve? Folding arms under breasts, Elayne? There's more, and I don't need to mention them. You'll immediately think of a few more as you read this. This puts a lot of people off, and while I can live with them, the story would have been better with more variation in the descriptions.

 

-The slog. In my opinion, it's not as bad as some make it out to be, but there's quite a few side quests that slow the story down, and the cast of characters could have been trimmed as well. The story could have easily been streamlined and trimmed down to 10 books, perhaps even less. But as it is, in my opinion only Crossroads of Twilight gets a fail. The other books all have enough cool stuff for me to give them a pass.

 

-As discussed above already: the author change. I love how Sanderson finished the story. He did a much better job than anyone had any right to expect. But he's not Jordan. His prose is worse, some of the storylines did not get the conclusion they deserved, and Sanderson did not quite get the character of Mat. Also, as you move from Knife of Dreams to The Gathering Storm, the pace picks up about twofold, which is a bit jarring at first. You don't have to fear the series because of the author change, but I think everybody agrees that the ending of the series would have been better with Jordan at the helm until the very last page. (Albeit three books further down the line, knowing Jordan.)

 

But any long running book series has its flaws and weaker entries. Book 4 of A Song of Ice and Fire isn't great and there's an entire storyline in book 5 that could have been cut and the story would have been exactly the same. And the Sword of Truth series actually has books that I would recommend you actively skip. Or skip the entire series. That one has so many flaws it's hard to figure out where to start.

 

But hey, even The Lord of the Rings has clear flaws, and I think almost everybody agrees that's a masterpiece that kickstarted an entire subgenre. Every piece of literature has aspects that can be criticized. The only book that I can't think of a flaw in would be The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark Haddon, but even that one has one-star reviews on Goodreads. Many one-star reviews, in fact. ^^

Edited April 3, 2023 by Asthereal

[Gypsum]

3 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Thank you so much for your perspective. You picked up on what I was essentially asking. As a relative newcomer to the series and a complete beginner to the forum, I’m extremely curious about how earlier fans experienced and interpreted WOT. I admit I am taking the lazy approach by asking questions via short cut rather than searching the archives, but I’ve had some trouble finding what I searched for. I appreciate your reply!

My experience is very different now, as an adult and a writer myself. I first read the Eye of the World at age 13/14, then devoured the series from there. My parents have hardbacks in their basement because I had to buy them as they were published. Remember when hardbacks were sold first, and it would be months before a paperback appeared? Crossroads of Twilight came out during my second year as an undergrad. I lost the will to live halfway through that book and never finished.

 

Picked up the series again in 2021 when a friend told me the Sanderson books were rather good. That's when I found this website and others - looking for cliffnotes summarizing the plot and character arcs well enough to start with The Gathering Storm. Fired through those three, then read backwards, going from Knife of Dreams to Crossroads. Knife was alright, but Crossroads was as tedious as I remembered. Still, I made myself finish it. At that point, I decided to restart the whole series with the Eye of the World, this time on Kindle. 

 

Teenage me didn't notice or care about the repetitive phrases, or runaway descriptions, or Jordan's 'interesting' vision of feminism, his hang-up with breasts, and his powerful matriarchal organization of mature women who could be like 100 years old but they're cattier and more dysfunctional than any bunch of 20-something college students. I felt totally immersed in the world. The writing seemed to work perfectly. Adult me thinks, "Jeeze, man, where's your editor?"

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Gypsum

[Asthereal]

34 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

Teenage me didn't notice or care about the repetitive phrases, or runaway descriptions, or Jordan's 'interesting' vision of feminism, his hang-up with breasts, and his powerful matriarchal organization of mature women who could be like 100 years old but they're cattier and more dysfunctional than any bunch of 20-something college students. I felt totally immersed in the world. The writing seemed to work perfectly. Adult me thinks, "Jeeze, man, where's your editor?"

 

His editor would be his wife, lauded as one of the best editors in the genre. Perhaps she decided to let him have his things with mature women acting like brats. And spanking. 🤣

[Gypsum]

1 hour ago, Asthereal said:

 

His editor would be his wife, lauded as one of the best editors in the genre. Perhaps she decided to let him have his things with mature women acting like brats. And spanking. 🤣

 

Aye, I know his editor was his wife, making a strong case for why your editor shouldn't be your spouse. I like a lengthy, florid description as much as anyone, but there is a time and place for being bold with that 'delete' key.

 

I can usually deal with the spanking. Sometimes. Jordan's thing with corporal punishment for discplining adults is weird for us 21st century folk, but it wasn't that long ago - 19th century - that the cat'o'nine tails were punishment du jour for the wayward.

 

Still think the Aes Sedai's high school politicking could have been downplayed a little. Are there no adults in the room? It gets in the way of more interesting stuff.

 

But describing every curl of embroidery on everyone's coat during a meeting truly drags on the narrative.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Gypsum

[Asthereal]

2 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

Aye, I know his editor was his wife, making a strong case for why your editor shouldn't be your spouse. I like a lengthy, florid description as much as anyone, but there is a time and place for being bold with that 'delete' key.

 

I can usually deal with the spanking. Sometimes. Jordan's thing with corporal punishment for discplining adults is weird for us 21st century folk, but it wasn't that long ago - 19th century - that the cat'o'nine tails were punishment du jour for the wayward.

 

Still think the Aes Sedai's high school politicking could have been downplayed a little. Are there no adults in the room? It gets in the way of more interesting stuff.

 

But describing every curl of embroidery on everyone's coat during a meeting truly drags on the narrative.

 

I agree with each of these points. 🙂 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

His editor would be his wife, lauded as one of the best editors in the genre. Perhaps she decided to let him have his things with mature women acting like brats. And spanking. 🤣

Love the series of course, but if she is one of the best...  How bad was it before she got her mitts on it? 

[Elgee]

1 hour ago, Gypsum said:

I can usually deal with the spanking. Sometimes. Jordan's thing with corporal punishment for discplining adults is weird for us 21st century folk, but it wasn't that long ago - 19th century - that the cat'o'nine tails were punishment du jour for the wayward.

 

I grew up in a time (and maybe place) where you got your backside smacked for being naughty. To me, this is how things should be. I only have to look at how our country went to hell in a hand-basket after that was out-lawed.

Anyhoo, my point being that we're all different, and we like and dislike different things. Luckily RJ's books are a smorgasbord 😛

I find SOME of the repetitive things boring, but some of the intricate detailing fascinating and enriching.

I do find the concept that teenagers have enough sense to save creation whereas 250 year old highly trained women can't find their backsides even with a compass and a map, rather irritating.

But not enough to put me off the story.

[WheelofJuke]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:06 AM, Gypsum said:

Not quite sure what you're asking, but if you read old threads on this forum and elsewhere, you'll see that plenty of people who loved the books acknowledge that they had their flaws. 90% of The Crossroads of Twilight (most of that 90% was characters having meetings...no one likes meetings). Letting the narrative get bogged down in overwrought descriptions (do we need to know about every stitch, type of fabric, and neckline on every dress or coat even the most minor character wears? No, we do not). Repetitive language (pick up a thesaurus next time you want to write "stout Two Rivers woollens"). Plot diversions that went on way longer than they should have done (Faile kidnapping). Jordan's fixation on men and women not understanding one another and gender being the primary reason for such misunderstandings (would work as a quirk of some characters, but everyone, from every culture in Randland? Why?).

 

It's a testament to the strength of Jordan's writing that despite these issues, the books are so popular and readable and have so many devoted fans. That said, on my reread, I speed read every paragraph that overdoes description on things that don't matter, like the exact layout of a pub or people's clothes.

Interesting, I'm the opposite. I force myself to slow down and read the horse and/or dress embroidery parts and really savor them, because that's the stuff I wouldn't normally dig, that I feel Jordan does such a ritualized job of using and reusing (almost like a court bard using High Chant, it's a stylistic flourish) that greatly adds, not detracts, from the whole, imho. 

 

I know people's miles vary greatly with that. 🙂

Edited April 3, 2023 by WheelofJuke
mangled sentencimafying

[Gypsum]

8 hours ago, WheelofJuke said:

I force myself to slow down and read the horse and/or dress embroidery parts

 

Oh, I read the horse stuff because I own two of them and will read anything horsey in great detail, and then find myself annoyed because many writers (including Jordan) make it obvious that they've never ridden or spent any meaningful time with horses and have no idea what they are talking about.

 

I think Jordan is at his best in action scenes or when he's inside people's heads dealing with their psychological woes. I'm inching slowly towards the 'box scenes' in my Lord of Chaos reread, dreading it because it was really traumatic the first time, and won't have got better. His writing was so powerful and convincing, like watching a movie.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

9 hours ago, Elgee said:

I do find the concept that teenagers have enough sense to save creation whereas 250 year old highly trained women can't find their backsides even with a compass and a map, rather irritating.

Except that their training/indoctrination is counterproductive to the needs of the time (unity at almost all costs, defer to power rather than to good sense, conceal information and misinform as a default setting rather than sharing knowledge for the good of all, division of priorities and tasks into rival Ajahs instead of respecting each position etc).  Very good for forcing an organisation composed of individually powerful members to work together, very bad for flexibility in the face of change.   

 

I like to think that Hugh Cook's diatribe on the point of why military organisations composed of individually powerless troops hold together so well while fantasy wizards and the like each powerful in their own right are prone to disunity in "the Wazir and the Witch" is relevant here.  The third age Aes Sedai are a product of rules that were necessary to force unity on their members without any natural common allegiance.  The integration of wind finders and wise ones into their societies are a stark contrast to this.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Thank you all for sharing your perspectives and experiences. As I’ve only experienced the series as a whole, back to back, I was always curious what it would have been like if I hadn’t, and how many things would have been more impactful if I had time to think about it between books. I see a lot more of these things in the writing that are unsettling to the point of being disturbing or at least distracting as I progress through my reread, now that I’m not just trying to devour the story but actually taking it in. I appreciate you all giving me some glimpses of how you responded to things one book at a time. For good or ill, comfortable or uncomfortable, RJ in my opinion seems quite skilled in his ability to invoke a significant variety of deeply internal and personal reactions in his readers. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, Gypsum said:

 

Oh, I read the horse stuff because I own two of them and will read anything horsey in great detail, and then find myself annoyed because many writers (including Jordan) make it obvious that they've never ridden or spent any meaningful time with horses and have no idea what they are talking about.

 

I think Jordan is at his best in action scenes or when he's inside people's heads dealing with their psychological woes. I'm inching slowly towards the 'box scenes' in my Lord of Chaos reread, dreading it because it was really traumatic the first time, and won't have got better. His writing was so powerful and convincing, like watching a movie.

The box scenes in LOC on my first reread legitimately induced panic and anxiety when I read it. I recently reread it and it wasn’t any easier the second time. 

[nsmallw]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:18 AM, wotfan4472 said:

Yes. There were equal discussions over the Brandon books vs the Robert books.

 

A number of readers disliked Brandon's writing in equal measure to what the show did.

 

Robert Jordan had the clear ability to place you in the moments of the story, which is why the descriptive writing was seen as either a really good thing, or an off putting one depending on whom you ask.

 

Brandon Sanderson, by comparison, showed a vast difference in writing. This meant that many situations, and characters were off when reading straight from a Robert Jordan book, and the most important comparison, is reading Knife Of Dreams, back to back with The Gathering Storm. Those two books shows a vast difference in how the story is told. 

 

What the show is doing is off putting to many, because the mediums are different. It is still telling the story, just using characters in different events to build what is happening, and building what is to come. Kerene and Stepin interacting with Logain is a direct case to this difference even being needed. You can even include Owain in this as well. Thom's nephew.

 

They were all chosen and revealed for a specific purpose, and it is because their fates would affect key characters at very important and vital moments in the story they are telling, and also world building in showing the cost of becoming an Aes Sedai, or a male channeller even using their abilities.

 

The stakes are high in the story, and they are only going to get higher as each season is done, and more dangers are revealed.

Is there a discussion somewhere of the differences or similarities between Knife of Dreams & The Gathering Storm vis a vie the writing ?

[Asthereal]

8 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Is there a discussion somewhere of the differences or similarities between Knife of Dreams & The Gathering Storm vis a vie the writing ?

 

It's quite spread out over the forum, but here's the main stuff:

-Gathering Storm ups the pace about twofold, which is a bit jarring at first.

-Sanderson missed the mark with Mat.

Everything else is actually surprisingly spot on, for the most part. Both Rand's and Egwene's voices work, and their arcs rock. I personally realy loved the Ituralde bits as well. That character has such a nice clear view on stuff, he's a pleasure to follow.

 

I knew the differences would be there, but after reading the first 50 or so pages I breathed a sigh of relief: Sanderson was on the right track for sure. And onwards from there the story just kept getting better. Gathering Storm is one of my faves, actually.

[DojoToad]

I personally had little problem with the transition to Sanderson.  He did an excellent job picking up the load for Jordan in my opinion.  Not perfect by any means, but who could be?

[Disco]

I agree with a lot of this thread however my two contributions are

 

- I did not mind the aes sedai "isn't there an adult in the room" conundrum. I think this is separate to the bizarre gender divide of every culture. I think the aes sedai were a powerful organisation that ran for hundreds of years full of God like individuals with zero checks and balances. Furthermore, unofficial power of the organisation was primarily granted not on capability basis (but on talent, common in medieval times were everything is father son). 

 

- Sanderson books did pick up the pace but after CoT and even KoD they needed it. Yes it was jarring but it was the best editorial decision imo. Roberts story had grown like a tree and Sanderson needed to have everything point one way again.

[Asthereal]

On 4/9/2023 at 1:39 AM, Disco said:

Sanderson books did pick up the pace but after CoT and even KoD they needed it. Yes it was jarring but it was the best editorial decision imo. Roberts story had grown like a tree and Sanderson needed to have everything point one way again.

 

This is very true. Sanderson was hired to finish the series, and because he had so much to cover still, he needed to up the pace big time. But the pace was always going up with the author change. Sanderson naturally has a higher pace than Jordan.

 

The story needed to finish, and in order to do so, everything needed to move up a gear. Also, the way he disposes of Masema and his storyline in the prologue is extremely telling. Here's what we're going to do: trim the fat, up the pace and end this thing. And yet he needed three fat books anyway. How many books would Jordan have needed to finish it up? Six? More? 😅

[Blackbyrd]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:51 AM, DojoToad said:

Love the series of course, but if she is one of the best...  How bad was it before she got her mitts on it? 

 

Why not ask Glenn Cook?

 

Then go ahead and query the Malazon?

 

I hoped for you Toad, that you could ever be anything more... . but you are nothing more than less than a tool of the ordinary. Enjoy the eddings of it 

 

What a tool

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

Why not ask Glenn Cook?

 

Then go ahead and query the Malazon?

 

I hoped for you Toad, that you could ever be anything more... . but you are nothing more than less than a tool of the ordinary. Enjoy the eddings of it 

 

What a tool

Hmm.  A bit to unpack here.

 

Malazon evidently had many similarities to Black Company.  And I think that you are mirroring that to my comparison of Eddings and Jordan (different thread).  Though the comment of mine that you responded to was about Harriet's editing skills, especially after LoC - not about similarities between WoT and Eddings' works.

 

Tool of the ordinary?  If you mean simple, yes I am.  If you mean something else, you will need to speak plainly - due to me being simple.  Appreciate further thoughts...

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

Why not ask Glenn Cook?

 

Then go ahead and query the Malazon?

 

I hoped for you Toad, that you could ever be anything more... . but you are nothing more than less than a tool of the ordinary. Enjoy the eddings of it 

 

What a tool

This may be none of my business as it’s not directed at me but it’s posted on a forum where any members can read…was this meant to be mean or did I misinterpret it? Just curious, I’m new to this forum and have never participated in any other ones, so admittedly I have no context for interpreting the intent behind the statement which is why I’m asking. I’ve only been participating on this forum for a short time and while people certainly have some strong opinions and are sometimes very direct in their ways of expressing them, I have yet to see anything that seemed mean spirited but it could be that i just haven’t been around here long enough to see it, or that I misperceived your intent or that I’m just a little too naive and inexperienced in terms of how people interact in the world of anonymous forums.