Balefire vs Balefire?

[Scarloc99]

Not sure if we ever saw this event but. 
 

If someone channeled Balefire to kill a person and then someone else channeled Balefire to kill that person. Is the first balefire undone, even if there is no pattern to recover? 

[SinisterDeath]

 

According to Jordan, yes but you have to burn them back before they burned the other person out of existence.

[CaddySedai]

The whole logic of Balefire is that you "Unmake" something in the pattern. So If you eat an apple and are full...but I balefire the tree that made the apple and my weave was powerful enough that the tree ceased to exist before that apple was harvested - you no longer have said apple in your tummy. 

 

Its pretty crazy and kind of makes you think about all the damage caused when the taint drove male channelers insane... Cuz How many times did someone get balefired, there was a counter balefiring...and that person is back - still very much insane lol.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, CaddySedai said:

The whole logic of Balefire is that you "Unmake" something in the pattern. So If you eat an apple and are full...but I balefire the tree that made the apple and my weave was powerful enough that the tree ceased to exist before that apple was harvested - you no longer have said apple in your tummy. 

"Inanimate Objects" and how balefire interacts them is weird.
If you balefire a person's hand, the entire person goes poof.

While an object, every "atom" in an object has a thread. 

So in your analogy, if you balefire a tree only the part of the tree you hit was balefired (the hole).
Go back 30 seconds, and that tree all of a sudden has a hole in it. It falls on top of the man who originally ate the apple, killing him.

The apple he originally ate, falls off the tree and rolls to your feet, allowing you to consume the apple.

In normal causality, if the channeler balefired a tree, causing it to fall on top of themselves they could never balefire it in the future causing a time paradox, something  RJ's mechanics don't care about.

[CaddySedai]

Yup, thats even weirder haha. But yeah I forgot how it worked on objects but you just reminded me lol.

 

Also, then, should we determine when someone said an entire city was destroyed by balefire that we are speaking like they balefired enough to make the city structurally unsafe to live in - and also everyone died..

 

or do they mean that literally and it was reduced atom by atom into nothingness lol. Cuz thats both insanity - and really really OCD lol. And if thats the case what would one do…destroy it line by line like the digitizer laser in TRON? Lol

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Yup, thats even weirder haha. But yeah I forgot how it worked on objects but you just reminded me lol.

 

Also, then, should we determine when someone said an entire city was destroyed by balefire that we are speaking like they balefired enough to make the city structurally unsafe to live in - and also everyone died..

 

or do they mean that literally and it was reduced atom by atom into nothingness lol. Cuz thats both insanity - and really really OCD lol. And if thats the case what would one do…destroy it line by line like the digitizer laser in TRON? Lol

Or just make a really tall line of balefire and sweep. 

[wotfan4472]

5 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Yup, thats even weirder haha. But yeah I forgot how it worked on objects but you just reminded me lol.

 

Also, then, should we determine when someone said an entire city was destroyed by balefire that we are speaking like they balefired enough to make the city structurally unsafe to live in - and also everyone died..

 

or do they mean that literally and it was reduced atom by atom into nothingness lol. Cuz thats both insanity - and really really OCD lol. And if thats the case what would one do…destroy it line by line like the digitizer laser in TRON? Lol

Well, you have seen a Romulan vessel burn the surface of a planet in Star Trek. I know pretty much every Federation starship is capable of the same thing since the Enterprise D, so, two powerful Aes Sedai with balefire duelling  each other at that time would wipe out a city easily.

 

I saw Obi Wan and watched Vader bring down that ship and rip it apart. I enjoyed it, then scoffed, because Asmoedean in Rhuidean done well would beat him in this feat. Heck, Moghedien would have, too.

 

His fight with Rand showed the scale of these channellers and one of them was no where near his most powerful. Those two with balefire would wipe out that city, just by deflecting it around.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

YIKES!!! You guys are breaking my brain. In a good way…?

[KakitaOCU]

The science nerd in me always wondered why no one found a way to measure exact distances related to power.

Someone mentioned dealing with Insane Channelers.  As horrific as it would have been, could we have figured out the exact time frame needed to take out one of the insane ones BEFORE they started their rampage?  Thus preventing just the bad stuff?  It's horrific, it's murdering a person who's only crime is being a certain sex, but still the alternatives are quite a bit worse.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

The science nerd in me always wondered why no one found a way to measure exact distances related to power.

Someone mentioned dealing with Insane Channelers.  As horrific as it would have been, could we have figured out the exact time frame needed to take out one of the insane ones BEFORE they started their rampage?  Thus preventing just the bad stuff?  It's horrific, it's murdering a person who's only crime is being a certain sex, but still the alternatives are quite a bit worse.

Perhaps there is no exact science as to how long it takes before someone goes "mad"?

Humans might just be too complex for it to be a linear equation of usage to madness.

 

It's like medications for a variety of mental health conditions. Everyone's brain chemistry is just different enough, that no two people have the same benefits or detrimental effects from using them.

A drug to treat depression, might get someone out of a depression while they're on it, while another person it might drive them to self harm. Other's yet it can cause a condition called "tardive dyskinesia".

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Perhaps there is no exact science as to how long it takes before someone goes "mad"?

There likely isn't, but I was thinking more of "Alright, we know Channeler X first showed outwards signs when he killed 18 people on the banks of a river on the 14th.  So we have a circle of... 13 with Y Sa'Angreal that'll burn back to about the 13th."

Nonsense thoughts really, but the idea was curious to me.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

There likely isn't, but I was thinking more of "Alright, we know Channeler X first showed outwards signs when he killed 18 people on the banks of a river on the 14th.  So we have a circle of... 13 with Y Sa'Angreal that'll burn back to about the 13th."

Nonsense thoughts really, but the idea was curious to me.

Ah, I misinterpreted what you meant. lol

I think the time-burning of Balefire could be worked out scientifically, but I think we'd find that the further you go back, the power increase is exponential. 

[KakitaOCU]

38 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I think the time-burning of Balefire could be worked out scientifically, but I think we'd find that the further you go back, the power increase is exponential. 

You know, now I want to set a story during the Age of Legends using Balefire in a similar way to how Minority Report worked. 

A murder happens and It's up the TRPD (Tactical Retroactive Prevention Dept) have 10 days to catch the perp in order to retro prevent the crime.  Meanwhile rising concerns come from the scientific community that BaleFire is dangerous to our world.  Meanwhile, one person has uncovered a plot to start the War of Shadow, only to stop it they had to commit murder, can they avoid capture until past the point of no return?  Find out in "Trapped in Time"   

Sometimes I dislike that my DM history makes me so casually amused with ideas in existing worlds instead of purely writing my own.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

You know, now I want to set a story during the Age of Legends using Balefire in a similar way to how Minority Report worked. 

A murder happens and It's up the TRPD (Tactical Retroactive Prevention Dept) have 10 days to catch the perp in order to retro prevent the crime.  Meanwhile rising concerns come from the scientific community that BaleFire is dangerous to our world.  Meanwhile, one person has uncovered a plot to start the War of Shadow, only to stop it they had to commit murder, can they avoid capture until past the point of no return?  Find out in "Trapped in Time"   

Sometimes I dislike that my DM history makes me so casually amused with ideas in existing worlds instead of purely writing my own.

I have my own world, and constantly realize the “unique” ideas I have are lifted in some way from books I have read lol. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

9 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The science nerd in me always wondered why no one found a way to measure exact distances related to power.

As a more general point by the third age there appears to be a complete lack of scientific curiosity regarding the one power or the world in general - they do what works and teach the known weaves to novices but experimentation is frowned upon (for some good reasons as it can be very dangerous - but this appears to have led to a strong mindset in most sisters even after passing the tests).

Even the brown ajah appear to be recording facts about the world, not generally trying to reach and test any hypothesis based on those observations.  Even a cursory knowledge of science would suggest areas for experimentation with the one power (e.g. it is not possible to pick yourself up with air, but is levitation possible by generating a magnetic field using earth?).

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

As a more general point by the third age there appears to be a complete lack of scientific curiosity regarding the one power or the world in general - they do what works and teach the known weaves to novices but experimentation is frowned upon (for some good reasons as it can be very dangerous - but this appears to have led to a strong mindset in most sisters even after passing the tests).

Even the brown ajah appear to be recording facts about the world, not generally trying to reach and test any hypothesis based on those observations.  Even a cursory knowledge of science would suggest areas for experimentation with the one power (e.g. it is not possible to pick yourself up with air, but is levitation possible by generating a magnetic field using earth?).

I think this is a natural side effect of the world they are in, scientific discovery in general is limited. The illuminators for instance do not like their members trying new things with gunpowder. Rand tries to change this as part of the legacy he tries to leave behind. 

[CaddySedai]

To be fair, for much of the history of OUR world - outside of the scientific communities of their times - most people did not concern themselves with the things they did not have explanation for. Usually defaulting to some sort of "it was god(s)". 

 

Some of the reluctance then could be attributed to both human nature - especially for the non one-power advances in the sciences.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

My point is more that even a very basic knowledge of science can be an enormous power magnifier for one power users - a case in point is Demandred's casual raising of a lightning rod to protect himself and his circle from Logain's attack - far quicker and easier than spinning a large ward against lightning.   This so impressed Logain that he immediately retreated realising that the combination of greater power and greater knowledge was unbeatable.   This mindset may be a part of Ba'alzamon's long term undermining of the opposition to the Dark one throughout the third age.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:38 AM, KakitaOCU said:

You know, now I want to set a story during the Age of Legends using Balefire in a similar way to how Minority Report worked. 

A murder happens and It's up the TRPD (Tactical Retroactive Prevention Dept) have 10 days to catch the perp in order to retro prevent the crime.  Meanwhile rising concerns come from the scientific community that BaleFire is dangerous to our world.  Meanwhile, one person has uncovered a plot to start the War of Shadow, only to stop it they had to commit murder, can they avoid capture until past the point of no return?  Find out in "Trapped in Time"   

Sometimes I dislike that my DM history makes me so casually amused with ideas in existing worlds instead of purely writing my own.

I like your idea…clearly you have the creative ability to develop something of your own. Of your own with one added thought: I think everyone who loves to read and becomes deeply immersed in and affected by and even consumed by the story and world and characters is fundamentally influenced by it in their writing. 

[KakitaOCU]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:00 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

My point is more that even a very basic knowledge of science can be an enormous power magnifier for one power users...

If you haven't, try checking out the SpellSong Cycle by L. E. Modesitt Jr.  First book is the Soprano Sorceress.  World is a place where music is magic, you sing something, visualize it and have to get every note perfect and it works.  Mistakes being very harsh and thus music kind of stagnated and never developed full harmonies and such.

Enter our main character who is from Earth and while not a super genius has a full college education and is a Voice Professor.  The addition of Highschool Science knowledge plus exhaustive vocal training literally makes them the most powerful thing in existence

[Sabio]

Did Rj ever give an official answer to the if person A open a gateway in front of them and places the other end behind them and cast balefire through the gateway if they could balefire themselves?  I know he gave sort of a joking answer.

[DojoToad]

9 hours ago, Sabio said:

Did Rj ever give an official answer to the if person A open a gateway in front of them and places the other end behind them and cast balefire through the gateway if they could balefire themselves?  I know he gave sort of a joking answer.

That's the problem with metaphysics, there is never a bottom...

[Aan-Alone]

On 3/1/2023 at 2:38 PM, KakitaOCU said:

You know, now I want to set a story during the Age of Legends using Balefire in a similar way to how Minority Report worked. 

A murder happens and It's up the TRPD (Tactical Retroactive Prevention Dept) have 10 days to catch the perp in order to retro prevent the crime.  Meanwhile rising concerns come from the scientific community that BaleFire is dangerous to our world.  Meanwhile, one person has uncovered a plot to start the War of Shadow, only to stop it they had to commit murder, can they avoid capture until past the point of no return?  Find out in "Trapped in Time"

This so sounds like a 'SyFy' channel movie.