Nakomi!!

[Ralph]

In the new Origins, Brandon Sanderson explains Nakomi's backstory. 

 

Space for those who don't wish to be spoiled:

 

Spoiler

It was Brandon's own idea, and intended to be the back story of the mysterious woman outside Shayol Ghul, which RJ had written in with no explanation. 

 

In short, she is Jenn Aiel, and the Creator's avatar, as Shaidar Haran is the Dark One's. This is part of the ongoing purpose of the Jenn. 

 

 

Discuss.... 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by SinisterDeath
Added spoiler box

[Scarloc99]

This feels a little bit like Brandon is just matching the 2 most popular Fan Theory's, the 2 most common ones seem to have been that she was either Jenn Aiel or an avatar of the Creator. In some ways it is nice when a writer lifts from the fan ideas and interweaves them into the story, but it feels a little cheap winding both into each other, it also begs the question why, as the Avatar of the creator she didn't get more involved, really, if you assume her purpose was to nudge Avienda back to the glass pillars and change them to give a vision of the future, you could argue the main thing she does has nothing to do with the last battle but is all about nudging the world post final battle on the right path and in fact making sure the Aiel are kept safe. 

So I really don't like this revelation, I would much prefer if Brandon had doubled down on the Jenn Aiel idea and suggested that over the millenia Nakomi has nudged the Aiel ensuring that, despite everything they, maintained the right path. Maybe indicate she appeared to Aiel who "ran" after the revelation helping them resolve there own emotions, or that over the millenia she appeared to wise women helping them make key decisions for the good of the Aiel. 

The Creator idea I really just can't get on board with, mainly because like I said above, she might as well not impact the story at all so really, what was her purpose in that larger role.  

[wotfan4472]

The reason the Creator idea is the more popular is because Nakomi is absolutely signalling for many readers like myself that she was filling that position.  Tied to Nakomi is always the all caps voice that spoke in the first and final books.

 

Add in how Rand is speaking to her in that moment after leaving the Pit Of Doom and in Moridin's body to boot, it pretty much makes it clear that Nakomi was the Creator's balance for Shaidar Haran in that moment. No other figure in that moment would see Rand, and only Rand.

Everyone else would either see a Forsaken, or, and this is much more rarer, see Rand, but be tempered by the fact he is in a Forsaken's body. 

 

[DojoToad]

I think I prefer creator avatar. Both doesn’t make sense as why would a Jenn help the Aiel that abandoned the way of the leaf?  I understand the Creator not being more involved because of free will. 

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Ralph said:

In short, she is Jenn Aiel, and the Creator's avatar, as Shaidar Haran is the Dark One's. This is part of the ongoing purpose of the Jenn. 

I wonder if I take this as, she started as one, and became the other after she would have naturally died.

P.s. I added the spoiler box for your spoiler. 

In the future, on PC or Mobile you should be able highlight the text you want to spoiler, and click this buttonon the toolbar above.

[Stedding Tofu]

11 hours ago, Ralph said:

Discuss.... 

 

I hate it 🙂

 

RJ's scene at Shayol Ghul has us wondering but BS writing a "backstory" that just confused things and had to be explained years later doesn't work for me.  It just leaves more questions: about the Jenn, about the Creator's ability to use an Avatar and influence the world himself - namely why doesn't he? - about the Aiel in the scheme of the turnings of the wheel.  It either should have been meshed in more fully so we could appreciate that we are only looking at one age in one turning of the wheel with glimpses of the previous age or left out entirely.

 

Also, is that RJ's explanation or BS extrapolating "from something found deep in the notes"?

 

9 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

The reason the Creator idea is the more popular is because Nakomi is absolutely signalling for many readers like myself that she was filling that position.  Tied to Nakomi is always the all caps voice that spoke in the first and final books.

 

Add in how Rand is speaking to her in that moment after leaving the Pit Of Doom and in Moridin's body to boot, it pretty much makes it clear that Nakomi was the Creator's balance for Shaidar Haran in that moment. No other figure in that moment would see Rand, and only Rand.

Everyone else would either see a Forsaken, or, and this is much more rarer, see Rand, but be tempered by the fact he is in a Forsaken's body. 

 

 

Shaidar Haran is introduced in LoC and appears in numerous Forsaken povs in the series so we know exactly what he is and his purpose.  Nakomi seems a last minute idea that isn't developed at all.  I wonder if BS or even Team Jordan are trying to pin down an idea RJ only had floating around and ill-defined (hence the "backstory").

 

Isn't he still in his own body at that point?  IIRC He is carrying Moridin and the wound in his side is bleeding heavily, causing him to leave bloody footprints on the rocks of Shayol Ghul...

 

On balance I think Nakomi was an error on both writer's parts: we can have the body swap without her - we just need a bit more explanation of how Rand and Moridin crossing balefire streams in Shadar Logoth linked them physically; and Rand and indeed the whole world has trudged along without any involvement from or even any knowledge of the creator's avatar and her (still undefined) existence.

[wotfan4472]

23 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I wonder if I take this as, she started as one, and became the other after she would have naturally died.
 

That is actually the only way to explain it. It also explains why the Dragon Reborn had to be descended from the Aiel.

[Stedding Tofu]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:00 PM, wotfan4472 said:

That is actually the only way to explain it. It also explains why the Dragon Reborn had to be descended from the Aiel.

 

But Creator's Avatar =/= Creator's Champion.  Creator's Avatar is Jenn but Dragon / Dragon Reborn or whatever Creator's Champion is called in different turnings of the wheel is something and someone else.

 

The Dark One needs Shaidar Haran as an avatar because he is sealed in the bore and cannot touch the world directly until the seals weaken (and when they break he does not need the avatar at all).  What's the Creator's reason for needing an avatar? If he can use an avatar why does he need a champion? 

 

Nakomi just feels redundant to me.

[Sabio]

You could say Ishy was the DO's champion.  Why does the DO need Shaidar Haran when he has Ishy?    

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

You could say Ishy was the DO's champion.  Why does the DO need Shaidar Haran when he has Ishy?    

Because it is clear the DO didn’t trust any of his forsaken to actually do what he wanted. He knew they all had selfish goals and would put them above even him if they could so he needed a stick. 

[JyP]

I can see how it could have happened :

 

1) Mierin / Lanfear opens the Bore during the Age of Legend by accident

2) Lews Therin Telamon seals it again but all male Aes Sedai goes insane

3) the servants / Aiel are directed by Aes Sedai to take care of a big bunch of ter'angreal - note there are Aes Sedai in the convoy - maybe a young Nakomi included (the Guiding Star)

3) during the travels, Aiels discard the Way of the Leaf more and more
4) Aiel clans in the Three-fold land - and Jenn Aiel being less and less numerous (why ?) - including a very old Nakomi which devises the Glass Columns ter'angreal for Aiel Wise Ones and chieftains

5) I guess there's some kind of showdown between Nakomi and her Evil Twin / a Shaido Wise One who doesn't want the Glass Columns to orient the Aiels to be still under Aes Sedai chains, and who devised the Jenn Aiel demise.

6) a new Nakomi in a new body, being somewhat the Creator's Avatar - and still guiding Aiel by controlling the Glass Columns ter'angreal - the Guiding Star Reborn

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by JyP

[Stedding Tofu]

2 hours ago, JyP said:

3) the servants / Aiel are directed by Aes Sedai to take care of a big bunch of ter'angreal - note there are Aes Sedai in the convoy - maybe a young Nakomi included (the Guiding Star)

4) Aiel clans in the Three-fold land - and Jenn Aiel being less and less numerous (why ?) - including a very old Nakomi which devises the Glass Columns ter'angreal for Aiel Wise Ones and chieftains

 

You're referring to the visions Rand has of his ancestors when he goes to Rhuidean?

 

Through Jonai's vision we see six Aes Sedai in Paaren Disen arguing over what to do: they have callandor and the dragon banner and talk of both the plan to create The Eye of The World and of the role the Aiel have yet to play.  Only three are named, Solinda, Oselle and dark-eyed Deindre, the last of whom has the talent for Foretelling.

 

Much later through Rhodric's vision of the ancestors of the Cairhienin allowing them to draw water we learn that four Aes Sedai have re-joined the caravans.

 

And finally, through Mandein's vision we see two ancient, white-haired Aes Sedai brought out from Rhuidean to tell the Aiel chiefs that the only way they will survive is if they agree to the pact of Rhuidean.  One, a dark-eyed Aes Sedai, gives the prophecy of He Who Comes With the Dawn. 

 

I believe this Aes Sedai is Deindre and that she has played a key role in the events of The Breaking and setting up the Dragon Reborn's path three thousand years in the future.  What she does is because of her Foretellings.

 

 

[JyP]

We can imagine Deindre being the one to guide the Aiels through her Foretellings, and the unnamed other ancient Aes Sedai being the one to create the Glass Columns ter'angreal then. I still think one of them could have been "Nakomi".

[wotfan4472]

On 11/13/2022 at 7:09 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

But Creator's Avatar =/= Creator's Champion.  Creator's Avatar is Jenn but Dragon / Dragon Reborn or whatever Creator's Champion is called in different turnings of the wheel is something and someone else.

 

The Dark One needs Shaidar Haran as an avatar because he is sealed in the bore and cannot touch the world directly until the seals weaken (and when they break he does not need the avatar at all).  What's the Creator's reason for needing an avatar? If he can use an avatar why does he need a champion? 

 

Nakomi just feels redundant to me.

Because of the rules of balance. If the Dark One takes that step, then the Wheel will expect the Creator to do the same. Also, if the timeline is correct, then when Nakomi appeared, Rand was going through all that stuff after Semirhage collared him.

 

This is a technicality, but the Light had no representative during that period. There is a reason that it is stated that the Dark One and the Creator used champions.

[Stedding Tofu]

23 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

Because of the rules of balance. If the Dark One takes that step, then the Wheel will expect the Creator to do the same.

 

Didn't the Creator make The Wheel and The Pattern though?  He's not part of the system: we have ta'veren  for when the Wheel needs to correct the Pattern.  Shaidar Haran first appears in LOC when the seals are weakening but Nakomi is not introduced until much later.

 

31 minutes ago, wotfan4472 said:

This is a technicality, but the Light had no representative during that period. There is a reason that it is stated that the Dark One and the Creator used champions.

 

I don't know about that.  If you follow that logic then, should The Light's Champion fall - or turn to The Shadow - The Creator can simply go hands free.

 

Shaidar Haran is explained and has a purpose: The Dark One is bound away from the world but, as the seals weaken, he can touch the world indirectly and later by projecting an avatar of himself into the world.  This avatar gives his explicit instructions to his minions.  When the seals are broken he dispenses with the avatar as he has no further need for it and Rand finds it as a husk in The Pit of Doom.

 

Nakomi does nothing in story except drop some hints to Aviendha on her way to Rhuidean (courtesy of Brandon Sanderson) and turn up to be a shoulder for Rand to lean on at Shayol Ghul (courtesy of RJ).

 

I know we have her but I feel it would be better story-wise if we did not.

 

1 hour ago, JyP said:

We can imagine Deindre being the one to guide the Aiels through her Foretellings, and the unnamed other ancient Aes Sedai being the one to create the Glass Columns ter'angreal then. I still think one of them could have been "Nakomi".

 

If the Creator's avatar is a mortal who lives a natural lifespan (Deindre's companion ages as she does) and is born / reincarnated as a new Nakomi then it feels an awful lot like The Creator's Champion / Dragon Reborn.  Are they a real person who just passes on instructions like a seer or do they become a godlike being with the Creator's "personality"?  Why do they exist during The Breaking anyway - LTT was the Light's Champion?  So many questions!

 

If Deindre is guided by Foretellings - glimpses of The Pattern - then we don't need Nakomi to establish Rhuidean: The Pattern is working as intended through it's core mechanisms.  She's a redundant character.  RJ has lots of devices to give people hints on what to do - Prophecy, Foretelling, Spirit beings in Tel Aran'rhiod (Hopper, Birgitte) and a trip to the realms of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn.  I just find The Creator's Avatar / random person encountered in The Waste to be an unsatisfactory choice.

 

Right or wrong, the most credible explanation imo is she is a projection in story of H to offer Rand (RJ) comfort and reassurance that there is something more and that he has succeeded in his labours.  That's obviously deeply personal so is made ambiguous and obscured with BS creating a Nakomi backstory to try and make it fit in world.

 

The fact that Rand might survive has always been hiding in plain sight - "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" does not explicitly prophecy death - and the body swap is set up from the moment he and Moridin cross balefire streams in Shadar Logoth.  We are increasingly shown in the later books how Rand and Moridin are physically connected - right down to the confrontation at Shayol Ghul where Moridin cuts his own hand and Rand drops callandor.  Nakomi and the creator are best left out of it.

[wotfan4472]

Except, we saw Aviendha's Rhuidean vision. The issue is, Nakomi set her on the path to question that vision. Which, in turn led to the Aiel prophecy coming true in the good way with their inclusion in the Dragon's Peace.

 

Aviendha saw the bad way the Aiel prophecy came true. The key difference is that Nakomi was clearly present in one set of events, and not the other. The only Aiel that may have that fate if they do not have a Chief that survives, is the Shaido.

 

When you add in the ending of A Memory Of Light, with Rand's encounter with Nakomi, there exists only one conclusion to whom she is. Her motive was quite clear; that was to nudge Rand to the correct outcome with his negotiations, which we know also is not conditional on Nakomi's appearance. Because, at the same time, there was a far greater danger.

 

That danger, was Egwene and Rand coming to military blows at Merrilor, which required Moiranie's presence, and no one else, which would have been a repeat of Latra and LTT's clashes, just on a much more intense and dangerous outcome. The snakes and foxes themselves were clear on the stakes in that situation.

 

You could say the Wheel and the Pattern allowing  the encounter between Nakomi and Aviendha to happen is to handle a chain of development that the world would go through that had to be stopped. That kind of meeting would require the Creator to do something. Particularly if the events foreseen are to occur in a far later Age, and not the next one once the Dark One is resealed properly, and the Wheel had no way to alter that without the Creator's direct action.

 

That kind of problem would need the maker of the Wheel to take action, and it is very clear that those events that Rhuidean showed were the result of a recent development of an impending decision. Which was Rand's deal with the nations, and whether or not the Aiel were in it meant it was successful, or a failure. Moiraine made it very clear in Merrilor what outcome of the meeting the Pattern wanted, and it wanted the Aiel included in it. It also wanted the Seanchan in it as well, which is probably one of the reasons it had Mat marry the Empress, since he is a childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by wotfan4472

[Stedding Tofu]

22 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Except, we saw Aviendha's Rhuidean vision. The issue is, Nakomi set her on the path to question that vision. Which, in turn led to the Aiel prophecy coming true in the good way with their inclusion in the Dragon's Peace.

 

The Aiel prophecy is that Rand will unite them and break them and that he will save only a remnant of a remnant.  Aviendha's Rhuidean future vision shows the Aiel being destroyed completely (let's call it the default future outcome if the Aiel fight the Seanchan after TG) and does push the Wise Ones to demand inclusion in The Dragon's Peace.

 

So, why, oh why, does the Creator not use an avatar to guide people towards beneficial or essential outcomes more often?  The entire story is about people trying to work out what to do, being guided by vague prophecies and pushed and pulled here and there by The Pattern because The Creator does not take part.  Nakomi's meeting with Aviendha was BS's insertion and I wish he hadn't as it is literally a deus ex machina mechanism.

 

22 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

When you add in the ending of A Memory Of Light, with Rand's encounter with Nakomi, there exists only one conclusion to whom she is.

 

Well, it caused a lot of head-scratching and speculation before we were told in material released years later who she is meant to be.

 

22 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

You could say the Wheel and the Pattern allowing  the encounter between Nakomi and Aviendha to happen is to handle a chain of development that the world would go through that had to be stopped. That kind of meeting would require the Creator to do something.

 

The Creator created The Wheel and The Pattern just as The Dark One wants to destroy them.  It's against the whole premise of the series that if there's a problem The Creator lends a hand directly.

 

22 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Moiraine made it very clear in Merrilor what outcome of the meeting the Pattern wanted, and it wanted the Aiel included in it. It also wanted the Seanchan in it as well, which is probably one of the reasons it had Mat marry the Empress, since he is a childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn. 

 

Exactly. Yet Mat has his feet set on his path by the Aelfinn and his "luck" - the collapsing wall breaking his leg and trapping him in Ebou Dar during the Seanchan invasion, his deal with Nynaeve and Elayne moving him into the Palace so he would encounter Tuon.  And Tuon has her feet set on this path by the reading of her future by a damane and helpful hints like "the fox startling the raven into flight".

 

This is RJ and how his world works, no Creator/Nakomi pulling the strings.  That's a BS insertion to give Nakomi a back story so it's probable RJ imagined Aviendha / The Wise Ones deciding to join The Dragon's Peace without her intervention: she can draw her own conclusions from what she sees after all.  And doesn't she enter the second time by accident?  She wonders how the ter'angreal works, touches one of the pillars, gets disoriented and moves forward rather than back.

 

To be clear, I don't disagree with what you are saying: I think you are right.  But I think it was a mistake to expand Nakomi's role and to include her at all.  The Pattern is meant to be self-sustaining with a periodic crisis for which it produces a Champion to weather (by The Creator's design).  Inserting an avatar in time of need cheapens that whole system.

[Ralph]

https://dragonmount.com/news/book-news/rajivs-threads-in-the-pattern-origins-of-the-wheel-of-time-review-r1305/

[gd3123]

Nakomi being an avatar of the Creator does not go against the premise of the series at all and doesn't cheapen the concept of the Wheel in any way.  The Creator speaking to Rand in both TEOTW and AMOL is very clear evidence of this.

 

If some people don't like the choice that RJ and BS made when it comes to Nakomi, that's their preregative, but it is fully consistent with what came before.  The authors knew what they were doing, and it makes total sense.

[Amras AlThor]

I'm a tad let down by the revelation. Years of wondering and theorizing and somehow the reveal felt a bit odd. Of course Nakomi being the Creator's avatar was one of the most famous theories out there, and I'm not mad that she's Jenn Aiel, but a bit more foreshadowing would had been appreciated. The fact that we get this whole thing of the surviving Jenn serving as avatars to the Creator and subtly nudging the course of history by a word here or there in a reference book 10 years later feels like cheating. I wish we had gotten a few more appearances of mysterious characters that fit the bill not necessarily through the main story (Rand's story that is) but through some in world legends and stories. 

[VooDooNut]

Brandon doesn't have as light a touch as RJ

Edited November 21, 2022 by VooDooNut

[KakitaOCU]

On 11/12/2022 at 11:09 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

What's the Creator's reason for needing an avatar? If he can use an avatar why does he need a champion? 

Could be a lot of things, but the easiest that comes to mind for me is a concept like we have in the Film Dogma or Supernatural.  Direct interaction could break us.   So a vessel is needed to act as a filter/translator.

As for why does he need a Champion?  If the experiment really is free will for some purpose or other then directly saving breaks that.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/21/2022 at 12:14 AM, Amras AlThor said:

I'm a tad let down by the revelation. Years of wondering and theorizing and somehow the reveal felt a bit odd. Of course Nakomi being the Creator's avatar was one of the most famous theories out there, and I'm not mad that she's Jenn Aiel, but a bit more foreshadowing would had been appreciated. The fact that we get this whole thing of the surviving Jenn serving as avatars to the Creator and subtly nudging the course of history by a word here or there in a reference book 10 years later feels like cheating. I wish we had gotten a few more appearances of mysterious characters that fit the bill not necessarily through the main story (Rand's story that is) but through some in world legends and stories. 

I do wonder if BS took something he knew the fans where into and tried to shape it into something, then, realizing it hadn’t been as obvious as he thought it was took the chance years later to fix it. 
 

Or, maybe he is misremembering or changing his original thoughts to “fit in”

with the main theories. His interview last year where he insisted the dragon was born 1000 years later for the books makes me wonder if he had forgotten key parts of the books, I imagine when your writing as much fiction as he does, and no doubt reading other works, facts about books start to merge together. 

[wotfan4472]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:50 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I hate it 🙂

 

RJ's scene at Shayol Ghul has us wondering but BS writing a "backstory" that just confused things and had to be explained years later doesn't work for me.  It just leaves more questions: about the Jenn, about the Creator's ability to use an Avatar and influence the world himself - namely why doesn't he? - about the Aiel in the scheme of the turnings of the wheel.  It either should have been meshed in more fully so we could appreciate that we are only looking at one age in one turning of the wheel with glimpses of the previous age or left out entirely.

 

Also, is that RJ's explanation or BS extrapolating "from something found deep in the notes"?

 

 

Shaidar Haran is introduced in LoC and appears in numerous Forsaken povs in the series so we know exactly what he is and his purpose.  Nakomi seems a last minute idea that isn't developed at all.  I wonder if BS or even Team Jordan are trying to pin down an idea RJ only had floating around and ill-defined (hence the "backstory").

 

Isn't he still in his own body at that point?  IIRC He is carrying Moridin and the wound in his side is bleeding heavily, causing him to leave bloody footprints on the rocks of Shayol Ghul...

 

On balance I think Nakomi was an error on both writer's parts: we can have the body swap without her - we just need a bit more explanation of how Rand and Moridin crossing balefire streams in Shadar Logoth linked them physically; and Rand and indeed the whole world has trudged along without any involvement from or even any knowledge of the creator's avatar and her (still undefined) existence.

 

One major point in all this. Jordan stated in a book signing that Shaidar Haran was not introduced in Lord Of Chaos.

 

He says the Myrdraal  speaking to Rand in Barelon's Inn in the first book is actually Shaidar Haran. He then stated that the Myrdraal that threatened Caradin in Dragon Reborn was also Shaidar Haran.

 

 

My own personal theory is that Haran was the one that attacked them in daylight in Whitebridge, where Rand and Mat got separated from Thom.

Edited November 25, 2022 by wotfan4472

[wotfan4472]

On 11/24/2022 at 7:12 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

I do wonder if BS took something he knew the fans where into and tried to shape it into something, then, realizing it hadn’t been as obvious as he thought it was took the chance years later to fix it. 
 

Or, maybe he is misremembering or changing his original thoughts to “fit in”

with the main theories. His interview last year where he insisted the dragon was born 1000 years later for the books makes me wonder if he had forgotten key parts of the books, I imagine when your writing as much fiction as he does, and no doubt reading other works, facts about books start to merge together. 

That information makes me wonder if Brandon meant that the false Dragon that Hawkwing battled, Guaire Amalasan, was in fact Rand's soul reborn then. The timing is correct if that is true, because Amalasan was precisely 1000 years previous to Rand's birth.

 

It is even more telling if Yurian Stonebow was also a rebirth for Rand's soul, and he was 1000 years before Amalasan, and exactly 1000 years after LTT himself.

 

Brandon may have exposed some info that we did not have before that in that interview. If true, then the fan theory of those two figures is correct.

Edited November 25, 2022 by wotfan4472