What does the truth of the Aiel mean for the Tuatha'an and are the Tuatha'an the most tragic of all the cultures in WOT?

[Scarloc99]

One thing that is never shown in the WOT books (as far as I am aware) is how the Aiels past being made public impacts the Tuatha'an. That sudden understanding of where they came from, that the Song they seek was possibly the old harvest songs, something that will never be found again because the Nym are no more. 

I wonder how that understanding that they broke from their purpose in almost as big a way as the Aiel did will affect the culture. They stuck to the way of the leaf but walked away from their promises to the Aes Sedai. The Aiel broke from the way of the leaf but, you could argue, the Jenn Aiel would never have reached Rhuidean without them shepherding them, protecting them and then protecting Rhuidean. 

So do we think the Tuatha'an would be impacted by this knowledge that they and the Aiel where previously the same people? 

As an aside, because it probably doesn't need it's own thread but is linked. The fact that the Tuatha'an will never find the song they seek, does this make them one of the most tragic of the cultures in WOT? Forever now destined to travel seeking something they have no way of finding? 

[DojoToad]

Could affect the Tinkers much the same way as the Aiel with their own malaise.  Or perhaps not.  Maybe it ends their wandering and they abandon their search for the song and converge on Tar Valon to support the Aes Sedai again as they pick up the pieces after the Last Battle.

 

Lots of tragedy in WoT.  I don't find the need to rank it.

Edited October 31, 2022 by DojoToad
spelling

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

19 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I wonder how that understanding that they broke from their purpose in almost as big a way as the Aiel did will affect the culture. They stuck to the way of the leaf but walked away from their promises to the Aes Sedai. The Aiel broke from the way of the leaf but, you could argue, the Jenn Aiel would never have reached Rhuidean without them shepherding them, protecting them and then protecting Rhuidean. 

Except it is clear reading between the lines that what the Aes Sedai were trying to save was the Aiel themselves, the terangreal were just an excuse to allow them to command the Aiel to go.  As far as completing the actual purpose of their mission goes the Tuatha'an are doing their part by adhering to the way of the leaf.

[Kalessin]

Well, at the end of the series, we are left with Tinkers settling down in Altara, and joining in the first aid around the battles. So far no one in WOT has yet mentioned the decision their ancestors took, that made them Tuatha'an instead of Aiel. And Rand in his visit to Ebou Dar has made trees bloom. Meanwhile, in his disguise as Nobody_in_Particular, Rand is off to wander the lands.

 

I think he'll meet up with the Tuatha'an and (probably) the Aiel, and in one of those (formerly) ta'veren moments, they'd find the song. Just an "intuition", if you like ... 🙂

[Sabio]

The issue is BS has said the song they seek doesn't exist.  I think it's punishment for their breaking away from their oaths to serve the Aes Sedai and went off on their own.  

 

The Aiel to me is another thing the pattern forced to happen because has the Aiel not broken away from the leaf then Rand would have failed.  For the Dragon to succeed the Aiel need to split and the Jenn needed to die out.

[Gary Again]

I just finished a reread and while the current traveling people are searching for a song I thought it was really interesting that when they actually broke away from the Aiel they wanted to find a place where they could be safe so they could sing again. It wasn't the song that was important, that was something that was twisted over time. I think this is interesting because this is exactly what the Tinkers find in Seanchan controlled Ebou Dar with all of the traveling people gathering there due to how safe it is. It's true that they may never find the song but they did find what they were originally looking for which was a place where they can be safe and sing.

 

“Sulwin stepped back, then held his ground with his companions. “No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety, and some of us mean to do that. My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

Excerpt From
The Complete Wheel of Time
Robert Jordan & Brandon Sanderson
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-complete-wheel-of-time/id903770415
This material may be protected by copyright.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Gary Again

[Gypsum]

They sit around and play (what is probably something like Irish/Scottish) traditional music and have ceilidh dances and mostly stay out of politics, conflict, and the labouring/feudal economy. Sounds like living the dream, not tragic (unless Trollocs show up but you're sorta screwed anyway). Sign me up.

 

People in trad music circles pretty much live like that anyway. Many have strong tendencies towards the hippy/alternative lifestyle. It would be a long line.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Gypsum

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

19 hours ago, Gary Again said:

I just finished a reread and while the current traveling people are searching for a song I thought it was really interesting that when they actually broke away from the Aiel they wanted to find a place where they could be safe so they could sing again. It wasn't the song that was important, that was something that was twisted over time. I think this is interesting because this is exactly what the Tinkers find in Seanchan controlled Ebou Dar with all of the traveling people gathering there due to how safe it is. It's true that they may never find the song but they did find what they were originally looking for which was a place where they can be safe and sing.

 

“Sulwin stepped back, then held his ground with his companions. “No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety, and some of us mean to do that. My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

Excerpt From
The Complete Wheel of Time
Robert Jordan & Brandon Sanderson
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-complete-wheel-of-time/id903770415
This material may be protected by copyright.

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I always wondered what caused them to have the belief in the existence of a song to the extent that they define their purpose and identity around finding it, if it never existed in the first place. Your insight is very illuminating, and it makes me think of their belief as being somewhat like a religion. Most modern people who follow religion have adopted beliefs and practices over time that don’t necessarily align with their origin and in many cases contradict it entirely. 

[Mailman]

On 3/14/2023 at 9:58 PM, Gary Again said:

I just finished a reread and while the current traveling people are searching for a song I thought it was really interesting that when they actually broke away from the Aiel they wanted to find a place where they could be safe so they could sing again. It wasn't the song that was important, that was something that was twisted over time. I think this is interesting because this is exactly what the Tinkers find in Seanchan controlled Ebou Dar with all of the traveling people gathering there due to how safe it is. It's true that they may never find the song but they did find what they were originally looking for which was a place where they can be safe and sing.

 

“Sulwin stepped back, then held his ground with his companions. “No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety, and some of us mean to do that. My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

Excerpt From
The Complete Wheel of Time
Robert Jordan & Brandon Sanderson
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-complete-wheel-of-time/id903770415
This material may be protected by copyright.

There are also the 2 segments from Rand's trip to Rhuidean that could be relevant.

 

Firstly the story of how a group of Aiel in the past sang to one of the companions for hours as he killed them one by one while the city's population escaped.

 

Secondly one of Rands ancestors was in the fields with the Nym as they sung the harvest songs. It's possible that if the tinkers ever reconciled with the Aiel that they could in fact pass through the rings and hear the song again. That is assuming there was an actual song to be heard and not a distortion of the truth. Also probably the origin of the Aiel reference to fighting as a dance.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Mailman

[Gary Again]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

There are also the 2 segments from Rand's trip to Rhuidean that could be relevant.

 

Firstly the story of how a group of Aiel in the past sang to one of the companions for hours as he killed them one by one while the city's population escaped.

 

Secondly one of Rands ancestors was in the fields with the Nym as they sung the harvest songs. It's possible that if the tinkers ever reconciled with the Aiel that they could in fact pass through the rings and hear the song again. That is assuming there was an actual song to be heard and not a distortion of the truth. Also probably the origin of the Aiel reference to fighting as a dance.

 

 

 

Out of all of the stories of the forsaken that was the one that resonated the most it was horrifying in that he killed them one by one, beautiful that they sacrificed themselves that way to try and save others and the Aes Sedai and just the fact that he left the last person to sing alone for hours before killing them. It's like an orchestra of death with the Aes Sedai as the conductor. Horrifying yet beautiful sacrifice.

 

I also agree about the columns it would be really interesting for a tinker to go through. Loial also mentioned that he tried to teach the tree singing to the Tinkers but they were just songs but in the vision you had the Aiel singing part, the Ogier singing part and the Nym dancing so it could just be that Loial taught them the wrong part of the song. Would be kind of cool if the Tinkers go through the columns and learn the human part of the song, the Ogier sing their part of the song which creates the Nym and then eventually the Nym and Ogier use the book of translation to disappear so they are not around when our age comes and then they return during the age of legends (I think this is my head cannon I just really like the idea). 

 

 

On 3/15/2023 at 1:19 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I always wondered what caused them to have the belief in the existence of a song to the extent that they define their purpose and identity around finding it, if it never existed in the first place. Your insight is very illuminating, and it makes me think of their belief as being somewhat like a religion. Most modern people who follow religion have adopted beliefs and practices over time that don’t necessarily align with their origin and in many cases contradict it entirely. 

 

You're welcome and thanks for the kind words! That is one of my favorite things about these books is I don't even know what reread this is for me but I still seem to find interesting things each time. I agree it seems like this was one of the big themes that Jordan was playing with was how legend and myth over time changes and as you mention sometimes contradicts the original intent entirely. Another cool thing I think is both the Aiel and Tinkers may think they failed, Aiel by leaving the way of the leaf and Tinkers for abandoning the Aes Sedai mission to protect the items but in a way both of them accomplished their mission as it seemed like the Aes Sedai at the breaking were mainly trying to protect and save the Aiel people which the Tinkers did and then secondarily to preserve the powerful items of power which wouldn't have happened if the Aiel didn't abandon the way of the leaf to protect the Jenn.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 minutes ago, Gary Again said:

Out of all of the stories of the forsaken that was the one that resonated the most it was horrifying in that he killed them one by one, beautiful that they sacrificed themselves that way to try and save others and the Aes Sedai and just the fact that he left the last person to sing alone for hours before killing them. It's like an orchestra of death with the Aes Sedai as the conductor. Horrifying yet beautiful sacrifice.

not one of the forsaken - one of the insane male channelers (probably one of the hundred companions) at the height of the breaking

[Kalessin]

Jaric Mondoran, to be precise ... and I'm pretty sure he was one of the Hundred Companions.

[Scarloc99]

On 3/17/2023 at 9:00 AM, Kalessin said:

Jaric Mondoran, to be precise ... and I'm pretty sure he was one of the Hundred Companions.

A scene I am hoping they show in the tv series. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I was always waiting for them to find out that the tree songs were essentially what they were looking, but it never happened. 

 

I can only hazard that with there being a planned Seanchan story to come after the Last Battle, this explains why the issues of, for example, the damane and the tinkers (in Seanchan lands) were never dealt with before the last battle. Which does leave a bit of an itch, but I we have to be grateful for what we did get in the end.

[Aan-Alone]

On 11/1/2022 at 12:20 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Except it is clear reading between the lines that what the Aes Sedai were trying to save was the Aiel themselves, the terangreal were just an excuse to allow them to command the Aiel to go.  As far as completing the actual purpose of their mission goes the Tuatha'an are doing their part by adhering to the way of the leaf.

I never saw with that perspective.  Thank you.

[Bugglesley]

On 9/13/2023 at 3:44 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I was always waiting for them to find out that the tree songs were essentially what they were looking, but it never happened. 

 

I can only hazard that with there being a planned Seanchan story to come after the Last Battle, this explains why the issues of, for example, the damane and the tinkers (in Seanchan lands) were never dealt with before the last battle. Which does leave a bit of an itch, but I we have to be grateful for what we did get in the end.

 

I don't particularly think they needed "Dealing with," to be honest. They're going to continue their quest forever, or until the world changes enough that they can't. The ones in Seanchan lands will do exactly what they do anywhere else, except now it's fellas in bug helmets with some women with dresses with lightning bolts on taking some of your daughters instead of ladies in silk with sketchy sword friends whose cloaks ripple and distort their figure.

 

That's fine!

 

So to circle all the way back to the OP, I think the tinkers would be curious but ultimately, flat-out, not care. Their "quest" isn't literally an RPG notebook reminder to kill 15 rats in a cave that will sit there until they complete it and "move on"... it's a moral and ethical philosophy, a way of life. How many people spend their lives practicing Zen meditation only to die before ever achieving satori? How many people have lived their lives waiting for the Rapture only for them to die before it could get here? How many artists have spent their lives trying to be perfect and never got there? They ask about the song the way we say "good morning." They don't have to achieve the dreams of their ancestors, things don't have to go back how they were. The searching is the point! Their current beliefs might not be perfect reflections of what they were in the past, and that's fine too. They are what they are now.

 

By the by, they absolutely did not break any promise.. they got the ter'angreal to where they needed to be, and the Aes Sedai came by and set up the magic dome. They did their part, they're done! That's why they were free to go look for the Song again. Their current existence is far from tragic. Again, sure, maybe they go into the columns and hear a growing song sung by their ancestors, but is it the Song? Who's to say? Why don't we have another good meal and dance a little.

 

Tl;Dr The real song is the friends we met along the way

Edited December 14, 2023 by Bugglesley

[Aan-Alone]

22 hours ago, Bugglesley said:

they absolutely did not break any promise.. they got the ter'angreal to where they needed to be, and the Aes Sedai came by and set up the magic dome.

I agree with much of what you post, but I don't think I can with this. I don't think the Tinkers are/were descendants of the Jenn Aiel. Had they been, they would have remained and either died off at Rhuidean or become part of what we know as the 3rd Age Aiel. If that's how it happened? I fully admit that my memory of Rand's trip through the columns is a little foggy.

 

I think some "Leafers" broke off from what remained of the caravan to find a place of safety. They even went so far as to toss out the Ter'Angreal and Chora cuttings from wagons to make room for food/water. This  then evolved into both looking for safety and searching for "The Song". And these people became the "Lost Ones" to the Aiel and Tinkers to the rest of Randland.

 

I also think the Aiel who remained to make the journey to Rhuidian were composed of both "Leafers" and warriors, where the warriors protected the caravan the rest of the way to Rhuidean. Any remaining "Leafers" in Rhuidean are what the 3rd Age Aiel refer to as the "Jenn Aiel"; and the warriors would become the 3rd Age Aiel.

 

So in this, the Tinkers did break their promise to the AS. Again, if I have this correct. I'll keep this in mind for my next readthrough, as this is one of my favorite parts of the series.

 

As far as the question OP poses...what does the truth of the Tinkers origin mean for the Tinkers now? I don't think much at all. I recall reading something from either RJ or Team Jordan that the Tinkers Aiel bloodlines are so diluted that they wouldn't experience anything when passing through the columns at Rhuidean. So for them the truth would just be an interesting, or insulting, campfire tale. Insulting because the Tinkers know most peoples of Randland don't hold them in high regard, aside from their Tinker skills. So, from a Tinker's PoV, I can see how this information could easily be taken the wrong way.

 

Tragic: Yes, in the sense that they will never find "The Song". The same article I sorta referenced above goes on to say that the Tinkers wouldn't recognize "The Song" if it was sung to/for them. I too wanted them to have some closure with this search and this revelation disappointed me. And yes, so far as their wilders are concerned. Channelers in the Tinker cadre, at least wilders, were never meant to be "Leafers". They were always removed to study using the OP, and somehow that implied "This is NOT the Way". I'll be honest and admit I don't fully understand why someone couldn't be a channeler and follow "The Way of the Leaf". One of my takeaways from the columns was that this never happened in the 2nd Age. No reason given. Now wilders among the Tinkers will be collared and treated inhumanely.

 

Tragic: Ultimately, No. Not for the Tinkers as a people. With the Seanchan, the Tinkers have finally found their "Safe Haven". I think that's why there were numerous Tinker caravans in Seanchan-controlled areas of Randland, with more coming in. And their search for "The Song" [of Growing] evolved from the actual song to something that would return to them a place of safety where they would be allowed to freely follow "The Way of the Leaf". Throwing their lot in with the Seanchan does this. They have finally found a place of safety. They no longer need to search. The Tinkers finally found a home. I can be at peace with that. 3000 years is a long time to be moving around.