Feelings about the Early reveal of the 2nd Age?

[Scarloc99]

I am just re reading the Shadow Rising and it reminded me of the first time of reading and that moment of clarity about the 2nd age, how it was a high age of technology and civilisation and not a medieval age like the world painted in the books. That, combined with the reveal of the truth of the Aiel was the moment when everything clicked. In fact the Shadow Rises is when Robert Jordan truly defines his world, we see the Finn worlds, getting a sense that there are alien creatures existing in different planes or maybe far away planets. In some respects it hit me the same way that the end of the original planet of the apes hits, seeing that he is on a future earth. 

With the TV show I was really looking forward to this big reveal, having maybe 2 seasons of being in a generic high magic land before then having that Charlton Heston moment but, it very much seems like WOT threw it all away in a cheap reveal, talking to friends who had never read the book that realisation that the world had been high tech and was now very much no tech seemed to just fall a bit flat. So I wonder, did the show runners miss a trick here should they have held off that reveal for a season or maybe even 2? 

[DojoToad]

You feel how you feel.  Hard to say if they could have done better with that.  They could have done something you appreciated more but alienated others.  I didn't watch that episode, so no opinion myself...

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

They are probably already planning to scale back the whole "road to the spear" sequence otherwise it would take up a whole episode to itself (1/6th of a season) so waiting for the big impact was not an option anyway.  But in that case why not start with the dragonmount cold open?

[WhiteVeils]

12 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

They are probably already planning to scale back the whole "road to the spear" sequence otherwise it would take up a whole episode to itself (1/6th of a season) so waiting for the big impact was not an option anyway.  But in that case why not start with the dragonmount cold open?

The slow reveal of the Age of Legends is something they wanted to do in the show also, certainly, but they had to change it. 1) They had to make it something during Season 1...it's a great hook for audiences. 2) They had to separate it from Winter Dragon. 3) They wanted to make it something Television audiences could figure out for themselves (similar to how The Road to the Spear works) even if they can't go back and reread and think about it for a long time, and 4) it couldn't take significant screentime to do.

The way they do it in the Show is through architecture.  They start by showing those skyscraper ruins in Episode 1.  They expand it by showing all the ruins they go through in episode 2, like the aqueduct. There are hints in the other ruins episodes, and then the final reveal as they pan out on the futuristic city with jo-cars and stuff in Episode 8.

If they had done it all with a Dragonmount opening, there'd be no chance for audiences to slowly figure it out and it would reveal Ishy too early, losing some of that sense you get from reading as you learn Ishy is Ba'alzamon and not the Dark one.    It'd be a big spectacular blowout, but you'd not get this sense of going along with Moiraine trying to get answers to her questions where a little is known, but much is not. 

The books are full of unreliable narrators and people (including the reader) getting things wrong, making assumptions, and then learning better.  They are leaning into it with this show too, right up into the final moments where Moiraine finds she is wrong, Rand hasn't defeated the Dark One, but set his strongest lieutenant free.

[zacz1987]

On 10/28/2022 at 12:45 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

They are probably already planning to scale back the whole "road to the spear" sequence otherwise it would take up a whole episode to itself (1/6th of a season) so waiting for the big impact was not an option anyway.  But in that case why not start with the dragonmount cold open?

 

If any single sequence in the books could be its own episode it should be this. Maybe THe episode could be called 'Ruidean' and they could also include some of Mat, Aviendha and Moiraine's trips into Rhuidean in the same episode, even though most of Moiraine and Aviendhas trips happened off screen in the books.

Edited October 29, 2022 by zacz1987

[king of nowhere]

not really a reveal. we aleady knew the age of legend was very advanced, even before rhuidean. 

[Scarloc99]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:15 PM, king of nowhere said:

not really a reveal. we aleady knew the age of legend was very advanced, even before rhuidean. 

We knew it had powerful magic but not that it was a sci fi type worl, for me I remember it being a real revelation. Until that moment I had seen the age of legends being simply the current age with more tech, I did not see it being a high tech sci fi type civilisation more akin to Coruscant. I and many others I know also saw it being more like a DnD type world, lots of magic doing lots of things but still that medieval feel to the world. 

 

[Scarloc99]

On 10/28/2022 at 5:45 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

They are probably already planning to scale back the whole "road to the spear" sequence otherwise it would take up a whole episode to itself (1/6th of a season) so waiting for the big impact was not an option anyway.  But in that case why not start with the dragonmount cold open?

If they scale this back then truly the series is done for me, there is absolutely no reason to, each "scene" needs only be a few minutes max 5 on the screen and it is a key moment of the series that really differentiates the Aiel as a culture. What I can see them doing is interspacing between Rand and Mat. Showing there 2 journeys because this is the moment where Rand truly becomes the Dragon Reborn and more then any other moment accepts his fate, and it is the moment that Mat truly becomes, well, Mat. You could have the episode start with them appearing at the portal stone (end the previous episode with Rand triggering the Stone but leave a cliff hanger as to if it works), the brief conversation with the Shaido, Wise Ones and Rhurac and then they go down into the city. Then you have the events in the city, Rand saves Mat they escape the dust and then you end the episode with the displaying of the 2 dragon arms. 

That would not require cutting anything because, as I said, many of those visions are a single scene. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[expat]

I agree with bringbackthomsmustache.  It may not be a time constraint as much as a cost constraint.  Having several one-off scenes mean hiring a bunch of actors for 5 minutes work and creating unique sets and costumes for each scene (since they take place over thousands of years). 

 

I also don't think that it would be as easy to set-up as a simple conversation prior to Rhuiden.  While book readers would understand it, non-book readers would be totally lost, especially if you mix Rand's and Matt's stories. Matt's story is easy since its one coherent interaction.  Imagine that you haven't read the books and Rand steps through the rings and suddenly you have a series of short scenes with unknown characters in unknown places, telling a set of unconnected stories with no foundation/background.   Maybe viewers will figure it out at some point, but some percentage won't.  Finally, since you don't discuss what happens at Rhuiden (so no dialogue explanations) and there are no inner monologues, what mechanism do the show runners use to help those viewers who didn't get it? 

 

Bottom line is that the "path to the spear" is much easier to pull off in a book than a TV series. As discussed in another thread, fantasy adaptation is hard.

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, expat said:

I also don't think that it would be as easy to set-up as a simple conversation prior to Rhuiden.  While book readers would understand it, non-book readers would be totally lost, especially if you mix Rand's and Matt's stories. Matt's story is easy since its one coherent interaction.  Imagine that you haven't read the books and Rand steps through the rings and suddenly you have a series of short scenes with unknown characters in unknown places, telling a set of unconnected stories with no foundation/background.   Maybe viewers will figure it out at some point, but some percentage won't.  Finally, since you don't discuss what happens at Rhuiden (so no dialogue explanations) and there are no inner monologues, what mechanism do the show runners use to help those viewers who didn't get it? 

 

Bottom line is that the "path to the spear" is much easier to pull off in a book than a TV series. As discussed in another thread, fantasy adaptation is hard.

I think they will have to drop most of the "you don't talk about X" taboos of aiel culture. book aiel don't work in tv because they never say anything. just like in the beginning of episode 7 they had to relax the veil taboo to show facial expressions.

 

as for the visions themselves, i think they may show them in cronological order, instead of in reverse. showing them in reverse works for a book, but it would be mightily confusing in movie format

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

as for the visions themselves, i think they may show them in cronological order, instead of in reverse. showing them in reverse works for a book, but it would be mightily confusing in movie format

I don't know about that. When showing visions of past timelines, it has to be made abundantly and stupidly clear to the audience what they are seeing is in the past.

The part that might throw people by, is that the technology gets "better" the further back in time you go.

I think an easy way to show this without telling the audience, is to show buildings & landmarks with varying levels of decay, and how less decayed they become as each new vision happens.

Now here's a thought...

Lets say this happens in Season 4.
Have every every cold opening, BE those visions.
Then on say, episode 5, have the cold opening being Rand stepping through the ring and we see those visions fast forward to the last vision.

[DojoToad]

16 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know about that. When showing visions of past timelines, it has to be made abundantly and stupidly clear to the audience what they are seeing is in the past.

The part that might throw people by, is that the technology gets "better" the further back in time you go.

I think an easy way to show this without telling the audience, is to show buildings & landmarks with varying levels of decay, and how less decayed they become as each new vision happens.

Now here's a thought...

Lets say this happens in Season 4.
Have every every cold opening, BE those visions.
Then on say, episode 5, have the cold opening being Rand stepping through the ring and we see those visions fast forward to the last vision.

Could work, but it must be made very clear that the visions are happening in Rhuiden, that they are being experienced by Rand, and that they are connected.

[king of nowhere]

15 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Lets say this happens in Season 4.
Have every every cold opening, BE those visions.
Then on say, episode 5, have the cold opening being Rand stepping through the ring and we see those visions fast forward to the last vision.

I don't think it would work. so on the first episode you get this vision and it makes no sense. or else you know it's rand and you know he'll have some past visions, which will spoil the whole plot of "what's inside rhuidean".

or alternatively, you have rand go in rhuidean in episode 1, and then people have to wait until episode 8 for what was shown there, but all the while rand is reacting to what he's seen.

those visions are important for the plot. if you start showing them before rhuidean, you give up spoilers. if you show the end after rhuidean, then things in the story will make no sense until the visions are seen. whatever happens, they have to be seen in one go.

[WhiteVeils]

I can see them doing one or two longer Rhuidean scenes that somehow encapsulates all of that history. It won't be as cool or complete, but it might be enough.

 

IE: 

 

Have the 'after the defeat of the dark one' + hanging scene, but in that scene the main character talks about what happened to his grandfather with another character.

 

Combine the initial rescue scene + first maiden scene + sharing water scene in one, where in show continuity they all happen as part of the same event instead of being separated by hundreds of years.

I know it wouldn't be as cool, but it would fit better for TV.