Has Rings of Power proven that Fantasy Adaptations are really hard?

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

B) disrespecting anyone new to the world of WoT by implying that they're incapable of grasping or enjoying the story of the novels as presented onscreen without being intimately familiar with the deeper lore.

And - I should add - assuming that they will never pick up the books and judge the degree of 'deviation' for themselves.

[DigificWriter]

14 minutes ago, Guire said:

There is no public way to know how the show was received currently. If the show makes it to 8 seasons then whatever internal metrics Amazon required were met.  Changes were made to meet time compression, Amazon and show runner goals, and demands of media.  Then show had external problems.  At minimum a significant portion of sudience found it very mediocre.  So yes show didnt need any changes but changes may have reduced some negative perceptions without changing postive fans opinion.

 

Even without direct statistics from Amazon, it's safe to assume that the percentage of negative reactions is infinitesimal compared to the overall percentage of people who watched the show either as WoT newbies or as fans of the novels.

 

IOW, nobody involved with the show is going to make changes to it based on negative reactions.

[Guire]

5 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Show, don't tell. Nobody would remember anything of that several seasons later.

A two minute conversation that contextualixes Abells being horrific, why any EF 5 could be Dragon, and why tiny village has racial diversity of a new york subway would be no more or less forgetable than Tam and Rand having a conversation abour berries and love.

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Even without direct statistics from Amazon, it's safe to assume that the percentage of negative reactions is infinitesimal compared to the overall percentage of people who watched the show either as WoT newbies or as fans of the novels.

 

IOW, nobody involved with the show is going to make changes to it based on negative reactions.

What will they use to make changes to it?

[Guire]

16 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Even without direct statistics from Amazon, it's safe to assume that the percentage of negative reactions is infinitesimal compared to the overall percentage of people who watched the show either as WoT newbies or as fans of the novels.

 

IOW, nobody involved with the show is going to make changes to it based on negative reactions.

How do you have any clue about reactions in mass?  Public reviews of entire season make it out to be mediocre.  Watching an entire  1 st season of a heavily marketed beloved IP doesnt mean entire audience loved show.  It means people were giving it a chance. 

 

Currently WoT show at 59% on RT fan review. HoTD at 82%.  Makes WoT prime seem pretty average reception.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Guire
Added info

[DigificWriter]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

What will they use to make changes to it?

 

Any changes that are made to the way that Rafe and his team are approaching their adaptation of the novels are going to be made because of A) external circumstances or B) internal opinion and/or discussion.

 

Contrary to what audiences would like to believe, they have zero impact on the creative direction of any IP unless the people behind said IP have specifically stated that they're explicitly seeking to give audiences an opportunity to have an impact.

 

14 minutes ago, Guire said:

How do you have any clue about reactions in mass?  Public reviews of entire season make it out to be mediocre.  Watching an entire  1 st season of a heavily marketed beloved IP doesnt mean entire audience loved show.  It means people were giving it a chance. 

 

Economy of nature.

 

The vast majority of people who watch the show are overwhelmingly likely to be 'casuals' who make a decision on whether or not they're interested in it and/or want to watch or keep watching it based solely on whether or not it appeals to them for any number of different personal factors, and a negative reaction from a comparatively small minority is more than likely going to have little to no general effect on said factors.

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Any changes that are made to the way that Rafe and his team are approaching their adaptation of the novels are going to be made because of A) external circumstances or B) internal opinion and/or discussion.

 

Contrary to what audiences would like to believe, they have zero impact on the creative direction of any IP unless the people behind said IP have specifically stated that they're explicitly seeking to give audiences an opportunity to have an impact.

Audience feedback/reaction is not an external circumstance?

[WhiteVeils]

From earlier this thread:  Parrot Perspective: Brandon Katz's Biggest Trends and Lessons from 2022 (and Predictions for 2023) | Parrot Analytics

 

 

Wheel of Time was in the Top 3% of streamed television series in the past 90 days, a full year after it aired.

Peak US demand put it at #4, above Rings of Power at #7, despite a much lower cost per episode.  It is doing extremely well in Non-US Markets, especially India, which does not generally contribute to US-based English reviews and where shows are spread primarily by word of mouth.  It's not surprising: It's more socially acceptable/less 'shocking' fantasy with a multicultural cast and themes of reincarnation and adventure....really well matched to the Asian audience.

Those are the numbers Amazon cares about.   

[DigificWriter]

16 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Audience feedback/reaction is not an external circumstance?

 

When it comes to generally impacting the creative direction of an IP, "no".

 

Unless the people in charge of an IP specify that they're going to take audience feedback/reactions into account, said feedback/reactions are inconsequential when it comes to shaping the creative direction of said IP.

 

This is generally more true of television and literary IPs than it is of film IPs, but it's a truth nonetheless.

Edited January 23, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Guire]

35 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Any changes that are made to the way that Rafe and his team are approaching their adaptation of the novels are going to be made because of A) external circumstances or B) internal opinion and/or discussion.

 

Contrary to what audiences would like to believe, they have zero impact on the creative direction of any IP unless the people behind said IP have specifically stated that they're explicitly seeking to give audiences an opportunity to have an impact.

 

 

Economy of nature.

 

The vast majority of people who watch the show are overwhelmingly likely to be 'casuals' who make a decision on whether or not they're interested in it and/or want to watch or keep watching it based solely on whether or not it appeals to them for any number of different personal factors, and a negative reaction from a comparatively small minority is more than likely going to have little to no general effect on said factors.

I dont think Amazon is going to xhange approach to show except to reduce seasons made.  It was wishful thinking on my part.  Still there is no public metric that shows WoTprime to be really well liked.  I am not familiar enough with overseas market to comment on that possibilty. If I remember correctly Parrot analytics heavily weights factors like online engagement in ranking shows.  Basically everyone on this site unless they have insider knowledge has a valid opinion of show. And opinion is literally what we all have concerning quality and public perception of show.

[Guire]

48 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

From earlier this thread:  Parrot Perspective: Brandon Katz's Biggest Trends and Lessons from 2022 (and Predictions for 2023) | Parrot Analytics

 

 

Wheel of Time was in the Top 3% of streamed television series in the past 90 days, a full year after it aired.

Peak US demand put it at #4, above Rings of Power at #7, despite a much lower cost per episode.  It is doing extremely well in Non-US Markets, especially India, which does not generally contribute to US-based English reviews and where shows are spread primarily by word of mouth.  It's not surprising: It's more socially acceptable/less 'shocking' fantasy with a multicultural cast and themes of reincarnation and adventure....really well matched to the Asian audience.

Those are the numbers Amazon cares about.   

I read that entire article.  The big take away seemed to be that the streaming entertainment business does not know how to appeal to current audiences profitably.  The WoT stuff was more of an aside about WoT doing better than RoP on fraction of budget.  I am not sure if demand is measured uniformally across platforms so I have no idea how significant being 4 is.  

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

A two minute conversation that contextualixes Abells being horrific, why any EF 5 could be Dragon, and why tiny village has racial diversity of a new york subway would be no more or less forgetable than Tam and Rand having a conversation abour berries and love.

I am just going to say, for some reason I always pictured Randland being a mix racially all over, largely because the breaking meant that humanity spread out and mixed. Survivors ended up where they ended up, and then since then the tropic wars etc have meant a constant mass movement of refugees every hundred years or so. 
 

But also this does not need to be explained because it isn’t important to the story. As Peter Jackson explained when explains how he adapted LOTR you start at the end, Frodo destroying the ring, and you then work backwards and identify every story thread that is absolutely necessary for that to happen. Then you work out the best way to tell that story with the time out have, in a way that is enjoyable to watch. If that means making changes or cutting parts of the story that book fans loved that is ok because the only thing that matters is getting to that end point. 

 

Rand is the only red head in Eomonds field, that is all that matters. In terms of that aspect and actually, the mix of cast, my wife picked out that Rand was the only red head early on. Then you saw the Aiel corpse and she picked up on the similarity. 

[Guire]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am just going to say, for some reason I always pictured Randland being a mix racially all over, largely because the breaking meant that humanity spread out and mixed. Survivors ended up where they ended up, and then since then the tropic wars etc have meant a constant mass movement of refugees every hundred years or so. 
 

But also this does not need to be explained because it isn’t important to the story. As Peter Jackson explained when explains how he adapted LOTR you start at the end, Frodo destroying the ring, and you then work backwards and identify every story thread that is absolutely necessary for that to happen. Then you work out the best way to tell that story with the time out have, in a way that is enjoyable to watch. If that means making changes or cutting parts of the story that book fans loved that is ok because the only thing that matters is getting to that end point. 

 

Rand is the only red head in Eomonds field, that is all that matters. In terms of that aspect and actually, the mix of cast, my wife picked out that Rand was the only red head early on. Then you saw the Aiel corpse and she picked up on the similarity. 

I know this has been covered to death but I guess not enough.  3000 years since breaking, 2k since Fall of Manetheren, 1k since Hawking.  We have established 2 Rivers is isolated culturally, geographically, and economically. 

 

Randland is highly racially diverse, but book implies different countries have some racial attributes.  Urban areas and successful economic areas appear to mimic our world with higher diversity.  Fall of Manetheran will be your base beginning of EF isolation.  2k years is lots of generations of mixing in small population.  They will begin to take on racial similarity even with lots of different backgrounds.  Nothing in story indicates widespread refuge arrival in 2 rivers historically.  Might be but not shown in books.  It is mentioned 5 plus generations of isolation with no one even collecting taxes for Andor.  So having distinctly Asian and darker skinned African villagers sprinkled thoughout draws some peoples eyes and breaks immersion.  It was not absolutely needed to get from point a to point b in story.  But it is a small detail of worldbuilding.  All the small details add up.  Growing up in multiple very diverse cultural areas and in a few rural isolated areas this type of thing stands out to me.

[Scarloc99]

11 minutes ago, Guire said:

I know this has been covered to death but I guess not enough.  3000 years since breaking, 2k since Fall of Manetheren, 1k since Hawking.  We have established 2 Rivers is isolated culturally, geographically, and economically. 

 

Randland is highly racially diverse, but book implies different countries have some racial attributes.  Urban areas and successful economic areas appear to mimic our world with higher diversity.  Fall of Manetheran will be your base beginning of EF isolation.  2k years is lots of generations of mixing in small population.  They will begin to take on racial similarity even with lots of different backgrounds.  Nothing in story indicates widespread refuge arrival in 2 rivers historically.  Might be but not shown in books.  It is mentioned 5 plus generations of isolation with no one even collecting taxes for Andor.  So having distinctly Asian and darker skinned African villagers sprinkled thoughout draws some peoples eyes and breaks immersion.  It was not absolutely needed to get from point a to point b in story.  But it is a small detail of worldbuilding.  All the small details add up.  Growing up in multiple very diverse cultural areas and in a few rural isolated areas this type of thing stands out to me.

I mean if Eomonds  field is going to be homogenous then as per the description the people of the 2 rivers are dark skinned.  in fact RJ only goes out of his way to describe very fair skinned or very dark skinned characters suggesting that in fact the people of Randland are more olive skinned, which would equate to 5000 years total (from now) of humanity breeding across racial lines and Caucasian’s becoming less and less prevalent. Rand stands out because he is a white redhead in a villiage of predominantly dark skinned people. That is what makes sense if you want to assume racial homogeneity in areas of the land, but, again I will say you have had major upheaval on a regular basis across the land leading to mass movement of people. Be it being raised into armies and then returning with wives, husbands and children from those wars, to having lands destroyed forcing people to move. The 2 rivers will not have avoided that all together, Tam went off and fought in the aiel war. 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean if Eomonds  field is going to be homogenous then as per the description the people of the 2 rivers are dark skinned.  in fact RJ only goes out of his way to describe very fair skinned or very dark skinned characters suggesting that in fact the people of Randland are more olive skinned, which would equate to 5000 years total (from now) of humanity breeding across racial lines and Caucasian’s becoming less and less prevalent. Rand stands out because he is a white redhead in a villiage of predominantly dark skinned people. That is what makes sense if you want to assume racial homogeneity in areas of the land, but, again I will say you have had major upheaval on a regular basis across the land leading to mass movement of people. Be it being raised into armies and then returning with wives, husbands and children from those wars, to having lands destroyed forcing people to move. The 2 rivers will not have avoided that all together, Tam went off and fought in the aiel war. 

I never said I thought 2 Rivers would be caucasion.  I always pictured them as olive complexion.  It is remarked on that Tam bringing back outland wife was unusual.  Andor has been one of most stable kingdoms with wars since Hawkwing being mostly being kingdom consolidation.  Its a historically isolated backwater.  

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

I never said I thought 2 Rivers would be caucasion.  I always pictured them as olive complexion.  It is remarked on that Tam bringing back outland wife was unusual.  Andor has been one of most stable kingdoms with wars since Hawkwing being mostly being kingdom consolidation.  Its a historically isolated backwater.  

And yet, that tabac is known everywhere.

 

Unreliable narrator makes one question how much truth there is to the "backwater" narrative, or "no one leaves or enters" the region. 

[Guire]

30 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

And yet, that tabac is known everywhere.

 

Unreliable narrator makes one question how much truth there is to the "backwater" narrative, or "no one leaves or enters" the region. 

They have tabac, wool, and stubborness.  Traders coming once a year to pick up tabac and wool doesnt make it a bustling marketplace.  

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Guire said:

They have tabac, wool, and stubborness.  Traders coming once a year to pick up tabac and wool doesnt make it a bustling marketplace.  

Nor does it mean no one leaves and no one visits. 

[Guire]

18 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Nor does it mean no one leaves and no one visits. 

Haha.  I am dying on this hill.  The level of racial representation was unrealistic for a small town without some external reason which was not given in book or show.  The totality of changes including randomness of casting secondary characters made EF feel less like a real rural village with a hidden epic past and more like a ren fair.  Mileage will vary greatly per viewer.  I was more disturbed by changes in secondary characters personalities like Abells and Brandlywyn Alvere than race issues.  Having explanations in story for things that are unusual enhances story rather than degrades it.  Having refuges come to 2 Rivers after Aiel War matches perfectly with arguments made in this thread. 

 

 

[Mailman]

18 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Exposition is such a sloppy way to cram information in. They should have simply launched Origins earlier than the show and had IT tell the appropriate backstories about the One Power, the world as it stands, and the appropriate familial backstories. 

 

Make Origins be a setup rather than a. addendum to the episodes. 

A separate show to help you understand the show is a true failure of writing.

[Mailman]

Couple of instances

 

 

Already in the United States, another recessive trait, blue eyes, has grown far less common. A 2002 study by the epidemiologists Mark Grant and Diane Lauderdale found that only 1 in 6 non-Hispanic white Americans has blue eyes, down from more than half of the U.S. white population being blue-eyed just 100 years ago.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

It really happened: Six generations of inbreeding spanning the years 1800 to 1960 caused an isolated population of humans living in the hills of Kentucky to become blue-skinned.

 

The startlingly blue people, all descendants of a French immigrant named Martin Fugate and still living near his original settlement on the banks of Troublesome Creek when hematologists studied them in the 1960s, turned out to have a rare blood condition called methemoglobinemia. A recessive gene was pairing with itself to change the molecular composition of their blood, making it brown as opposed to red, which tinted their skin blue.

 

The hematologists' attempt to trace the history of the mutant gene revealed a gnarly Fugate family tree, contorted by many an intermarriage between first cousins, aunts and nephews, and the like over the generations. Dennis Stacy, whose great-great-grandfather on both his mother's and father's sides was the same person — Henley Fugate — offered a simple explanation(opens in new tab) for the rampant interbreeding: In the old days in eastern Kentucky, Stacy said, "There was no roads."

 

It is almost certain that every person in Emonds Field is related in some manner to every other person in the village. This would have occurred within 5 or 6 generation at the maximum. Meaning a similiar look being attained is not far behind as dominant genes take control.

 

 

[Mailman]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:50 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Google says horses could travel around 35 miles a day. A fit horse could do 50.

 

So let's say they could go 50 with Moraine, and 35 without.

 

1 week with Moraine = 350 miles

2 weeks without Moraine = 490 miles

For a total of 840 Miles.

 

Thats similar to driving from Charleston, South Carolina to Lafayette, Louisiana. 

 

That's quite the distance.

 

Besides, you can be in the middle of nowhere, with civilization only a week away by horse. 

The figures i get comes in slightly less than that.

 

They are with Moiraine for 10 days but you are limited to the speed of the slowest horse so the 350 figure holds. It is probably generous as Moiraine is gravely injured probably making for slower travel.

 

The boys are then on foot for 24 days to reach Tar Valon a good walking day is about 30km(18.6miles) although keeping that pace over that period may not be practical. Plus they lose time at the Grinwell farm and a day at Breems Spring as well.

 

This brings me to a figure around the 800 mile mark which i think is very generous considering the downtime and injuries. 

 

Remember this is also all the way to a secondary major city so the trip to Camelyn would be considerably less probably at least a 30% reduction.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Mailman

[SinisterDeath]

8 hours ago, Guire said:

Haha.  I am dying on this hill.  The level of racial representation was unrealistic for a small town without some external reason which was not given in book or show.  The totality of changes including randomness of casting secondary characters made EF feel less like a real rural village with a hidden epic past and more like a ren fair.  Mileage will vary greatly per viewer.  I was more disturbed by changes in secondary characters personalities like Abells and Brandlywyn Alvere than race issues.  Having explanations in story for things that are unusual enhances story rather than degrades it.  Having refuges come to 2 Rivers after Aiel War matches perfectly with arguments made in this thread. 

 

 

Baerlon is where all the iron and silver ore comes pouring out of the misty mountains and gets smelted, before being sent straight to Caemlyn. Hence the presence of the queens guard along the main road, and why any type of bandit is most likely found along that road.

From Baerlon, it's only 50-60 miles from Emmonds Field.

 

You know what Taren Ferry is known for? Foreigners, and embracing "outsiders cultures".
Apparently so much so, that no girls from Taren Ferry were found to be channelers, compared to the sheer number found in Emond's Field, Deven Ride, or Watch Hill. 
 

Given the history of the region as a shining beacon of civilization before it's collapse 2,284 years ago, the survivors fled the region and may have taken upwards of a hundred years before returning to resettle it after the Trolloc Wars ended. The various wars that happened in the free years during Artur Hawkwings reign...

 

There's plenty of opportunity for the region to have started with a very diverse population, and with just enough migration of people in and out of the region over the years before quieting down over the last 200, that when mixed with a bit of classism and people clustering in areas, It's entirely plausible that there's pocket populations of ethnicity through out the two rivers, and that the actual towns look far more diverse than the loose scattered population covering the two rivers region, all while maintaining the strength of the "old blood" without getting diluted like the Taren Ferry's did.

Trollocs, Fades, Flying Cars, Ruined Skyscrapers, but damn, I guess having a village with people of mix ethnicity is just too crazy and far fetched for people to maintain their suspension of belief. 

[SinisterDeath]

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

Couple of instances

 

 

Already in the United States, another recessive trait, blue eyes, has grown far less common. A 2002 study by the epidemiologists Mark Grant and Diane Lauderdale found that only 1 in 6 non-Hispanic white Americans has blue eyes, down from more than half of the U.S. white population being blue-eyed just 100 years ago.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

It really happened: Six generations of inbreeding spanning the years 1800 to 1960 caused an isolated population of humans living in the hills of Kentucky to become blue-skinned.

 

The startlingly blue people, all descendants of a French immigrant named Martin Fugate and still living near his original settlement on the banks of Troublesome Creek when hematologists studied them in the 1960s, turned out to have a rare blood condition called methemoglobinemia. A recessive gene was pairing with itself to change the molecular composition of their blood, making it brown as opposed to red, which tinted their skin blue.

 

The hematologists' attempt to trace the history of the mutant gene revealed a gnarly Fugate family tree, contorted by many an intermarriage between first cousins, aunts and nephews, and the like over the generations. Dennis Stacy, whose great-great-grandfather on both his mother's and father's sides was the same person — Henley Fugate — offered a simple explanation(opens in new tab) for the rampant interbreeding: In the old days in eastern Kentucky, Stacy said, "There was no roads."

 

It is almost certain that every person in Emonds Field is related in some manner to every other person in the village. This would have occurred within 5 or 6 generation at the maximum. Meaning a similiar look being attained is not far behind as dominant genes take control.

 

 

Key thing your missing here is inbreeding. It literally states those people married their first cousins, Aunts, and nephews.

As far as we know, Neither Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve are first cousins. They may not even be 2nd or 3rd.

So either
A) People don't keep track of their ancestry beyond first cousins
B) People try to marry outside their farmsted & village.

Did that study indicate how many families live in that region?
My guess is that there is a massive population difference between the two... and given inbreeding, the people of the two rivers don't exhibit half the symptoms you'd expect after a few generations of it.

 

As for "homogony" Look at Atlanta.

It's been 3 generations since mixed marriages were legal. By this logic, why are there still white people in Atlanta?

[DojoToad]

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Baerlon is where all the iron and silver ore comes pouring out of the misty mountains and gets smelted, before being sent straight to Caemlyn. Hence the presence of the queens guard along the main road, and why any type of bandit is most likely found along that road.

From Baerlon, it's only 50-60 miles from Emmonds Field.

 

You know what Taren Ferry is known for? Foreigners, and embracing "outsiders cultures".
Apparently so much so, that no girls from Taren Ferry were found to be channelers, compared to the sheer number found in Emond's Field, Deven Ride, or Watch Hill. 
 

Given the history of the region as a shining beacon of civilization before it's collapse 2,284 years ago, the survivors fled the region and may have taken upwards of a hundred years before returning to resettle it after the Trolloc Wars ended. The various wars that happened in the free years during Artur Hawkwings reign...

 

There's plenty of opportunity for the region to have started with a very diverse population, and with just enough migration of people in and out of the region over the years before quieting down over the last 200, that when mixed with a bit of classism and people clustering in areas, It's entirely plausible that there's pocket populations of ethnicity through out the two rivers, and that the actual towns look far more diverse than the loose scattered population covering the two rivers region, all while maintaining the strength of the "old blood" without getting diluted like the Taren Ferry's did.

Trollocs, Fades, Flying Cars, Ruined Skyscrapers, but damn, I guess having a village with people of mix ethnicity is just too crazy and far fetched for people to maintain their suspension of belief. 

I can see both sides being realistic:

• Enough isolation and intermixing that the population is generally homogenous with most people being a shade of olive to black.  If they were all Irish, I don't see Rand standing out all that much.
• I can also see Caucasian, Black, Olive, or whatever with high contrast between families and some individuals.  After all merchants come regularly, and a guard could get sweet on a Two Rivers person and stick around.  But the more contrast, the less Rand would stick out as different, because everyone was different.

Plus I seem to remember Rand comparing Elayne to Egwene at some point - with Egwene being as dark as Elayne was fair.

 

So as far as book lore goes, I still lean toward homogenous in the Two Rivers with most folks being some shade of a darker complexion - because Rand stands out.