Has Rings of Power proven that Fantasy Adaptations are really hard?

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

No idea why you're quoting me. I'm not the one mentioning or advocating "translation". I'm literally calling for an adaptation rather than a re-imagining.

How is this a re-imagining? The basis of the story is the same, what Rafe had to do was find ways of getting important information to the audience who have not read the book in the limited amount of time. The scenes that people seem to complain about make alot of sense. Adding in the Logain stuff, allows the viewer to see how men channel, to see how they are different to women. Adding in the Aes Sedai dying, the suicide of the Warder. That is one of the key most important things that Viewers need to understand as a thread through the series because, at the last battle, if Alanna dies, the viewer needs to feel that tension, that worry about what happens to Rand. 

Have the rules of magic been simplified, possibly yes, you know what that doesn't matter because I don't need 70 minutes of TV telling me all the subtle rules of the one source and I know the rules, audiences def don't need that, magic is magic the important thing for the WOT there are 2 halves to the power, the male half is tainted. I am not even sure if we will get the true power. 

We have seen Aes Sedai forming a circle, a key aspect of the last battle, we have seen an Aes Sedai die from drawing too much power, a key aspect of at least 1 main characters story. The main characters are in the same place as they are at the end of book one (mat exception) in the same rough state, yes you did not get Rand fighting in the sky, I am glad, lets be fair the final battles of books 1,2 and 3 are all very similar  now that works in the book but on TV you risk giving the audience the same thing 3 times. 

Peter Jackson defined the best way to tell a story like this. You start at the end, what are the key things that need to happen to end the story told in the book, then work backwards and remove anything that does not directly get the characters from A-B-End. Then, when you have that story see what you can add back in for flavour from the bits you cut out. WT is a far bigger book being told across a far shorter runtime in proportion to the amount of story. I am not even sure we get the battle of Dumais Wells in the form it is told in the book because I don't know that we get the Shaido in the same form because their story has little relevance on the final battle. I have no doubt we will see the Shaido but why waste precious minutes of storytelling on that conflict when you have so many moments in the books that can draw a direct line to the last battle and getting each of the key players to where they need to be. You could argue that the White Cloaks have no relevance to this direct line story to the last battle, if I was sketching this out this for a TV show they would be one of the "for flavour" aspects I added in, but I would ask the question "do we need them what can we do if we don't include them". Now I am not saying remove them but I am saying adapting this book into a TV show you have to make those very difficult choices of what do you cut and, if you cut it, what do you need to change to get across anything important, be it character development or story, in the bit of book you cut. 

This all then comes down to my point, in 64 hours Rafe has to. 

Define a world that viewers can't understand without it being explained, he has to explain the rules of magic, the rules of culture, tell the important key historical moments that let to this point. He has to explain how politics work, and introduce the vast array of characters in a way that the audience feel some connection to them very quickly (hence Perrin killing his wife). 

He then has to tell the actual story told across a vast array of books in a way that draws an audience in and gets them invested, in a way that is actually filmable on a realistic budget and timescale. He also has to avoid mass exposition as much as he can to show and not tell the audience the rules of the world. This means cutting the books down to a small number of set piece moments each one capturing the flavour of the book but not necessarily matching the actual narrative. For instance the travels of Mat and Rand in the TV show vs the book, it got across what it needed to in a very succinct way. 

He then needs to make sure all the pieces come together to end the story the way it ends in the books, or as closely as possible. while avoiding all the faults with GOT and not rush to the end cramming everything into the last series.

Lets be fair here if he was going to give the last battle the same proportion of time as it gets int he books you are looking at what 2-3 hours devoted to the actual fighting of it, you have to show the Sharans appearing from nowhere (if Rafe uses the Sharans expect some scenes devoted to them before the last battle just so people know who they are, possibly taking from the short story Brandon wrote). You show the battle in Tel'aran'rhiod, the Seanchan leaving, I hope you see Mat wading into the fight to "just get a feel for how it is going". You get assassination attempts, Siuan and Bryne die, again reinforcing the danger to a warder f her Aes Sedai falls. Egwene and Elayne fighting, Avihenda fighting Rhurac. All those scenes are going to take up time, and you reduce the time to tell how you get there to 61 hours. 

I don't know how you demonstrate what Rand does to protect the one power from the taint other then a crazy light show and him explaining afterwards? This is why I feel the true power won't come into the show, it exists in the book simply as the way for Jordan to allow the bore to be sealed without any taint. Once you start breaking down most of what Robert Jordan put in place early on you see he was making a tool box ready for telling the story later on. Rafe needs to do the same thing. 

Now has he made mistakes, undoubtably, but, those mistakes have largely been effects and in some respects scripting. You can pick apart the choices he made in what he cut and added but, you also have to accept we where never going to get the books as written, we can't we can't even get a clear adaptation, there is not enough screen time to present 1/8th of the books directly, and, if you cut that much out of the books you have to accept you are making a different story. 

[Guest Cranglevoid]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

How is this a re-imagining? The basis of the story is the same, what Rafe had to do was find ways of getting important information to the audience who have not read the book in the limited amount of time. The scenes that people seem to complain about make alot of sense. Adding in the Logain stuff, allows the viewer to see how men channel, to see how they are different to women. Adding in the Aes Sedai dying, the suicide of the Warder. That is one of the key most important things that Viewers need to understand as a thread through the series because, at the last battle, if Alanna dies, the viewer needs to feel that tension, that worry about what happens to Rand. 

Have the rules of magic been simplified, possibly yes, you know what that doesn't matter because I don't need 70 minutes of TV telling me all the subtle rules of the one source and I know the rules, audiences def don't need that, magic is magic the important thing for the WOT there are 2 halves to the power, the male half is tainted. I am not even sure if we will get the true power. 

We have seen Aes Sedai forming a circle, a key aspect of the last battle, we have seen an Aes Sedai die from drawing too much power, a key aspect of at least 1 main characters story. The main characters are in the same place as they are at the end of book one (mat exception) in the same rough state, yes you did not get Rand fighting in the sky, I am glad, lets be fair the final battles of books 1,2 and 3 are all very similar  now that works in the book but on TV you risk giving the audience the same thing 3 times. 

Peter Jackson defined the best way to tell a story like this. You start at the end, what are the key things that need to happen to end the story told in the book, then work backwards and remove anything that does not directly get the characters from A-B-End. Then, when you have that story see what you can add back in for flavour from the bits you cut out. WT is a far bigger book being told across a far shorter runtime in proportion to the amount of story. I am not even sure we get the battle of Dumais Wells in the form it is told in the book because I don't know that we get the Shaido in the same form because their story has little relevance on the final battle. I have no doubt we will see the Shaido but why waste precious minutes of storytelling on that conflict when you have so many moments in the books that can draw a direct line to the last battle and getting each of the key players to where they need to be. You could argue that the White Cloaks have no relevance to this direct line story to the last battle, if I was sketching this out this for a TV show they would be one of the "for flavour" aspects I added in, but I would ask the question "do we need them what can we do if we don't include them". Now I am not saying remove them but I am saying adapting this book into a TV show you have to make those very difficult choices of what do you cut and, if you cut it, what do you need to change to get across anything important, be it character development or story, in the bit of book you cut. 

This all then comes down to my point, in 64 hours Rafe has to. 

Define a world that viewers can't understand without it being explained, he has to explain the rules of magic, the rules of culture, tell the important key historical moments that let to this point. He has to explain how politics work, and introduce the vast array of characters in a way that the audience feel some connection to them very quickly (hence Perrin killing his wife). 

He then has to tell the actual story told across a vast array of books in a way that draws an audience in and gets them invested, in a way that is actually filmable on a realistic budget and timescale. He also has to avoid mass exposition as much as he can to show and not tell the audience the rules of the world. This means cutting the books down to a small number of set piece moments each one capturing the flavour of the book but not necessarily matching the actual narrative. For instance the travels of Mat and Rand in the TV show vs the book, it got across what it needed to in a very succinct way. 

He then needs to make sure all the pieces come together to end the story the way it ends in the books, or as closely as possible. while avoiding all the faults with GOT and not rush to the end cramming everything into the last series.

Lets be fair here if he was going to give the last battle the same proportion of time as it gets int he books you are looking at what 2-3 hours devoted to the actual fighting of it, you have to show the Sharans appearing from nowhere (if Rafe uses the Sharans expect some scenes devoted to them before the last battle just so people know who they are, possibly taking from the short story Brandon wrote). You show the battle in Tel'aran'rhiod, the Seanchan leaving, I hope you see Mat wading into the fight to "just get a feel for how it is going". You get assassination attempts, Siuan and Bryne die, again reinforcing the danger to a warder f her Aes Sedai falls. Egwene and Elayne fighting, Avihenda fighting Rhurac. All those scenes are going to take up time, and you reduce the time to tell how you get there to 61 hours. 

I don't know how you demonstrate what Rand does to protect the one power from the taint other then a crazy light show and him explaining afterwards? This is why I feel the true power won't come into the show, it exists in the book simply as the way for Jordan to allow the bore to be sealed without any taint. Once you start breaking down most of what Robert Jordan put in place early on you see he was making a tool box ready for telling the story later on. Rafe needs to do the same thing. 

Now has he made mistakes, undoubtably, but, those mistakes have largely been effects and in some respects scripting. You can pick apart the choices he made in what he cut and added but, you also have to accept we where never going to get the books as written, we can't we can't even get a clear adaptation, there is not enough screen time to present 1/8th of the books directly, and, if you cut that much out of the books you have to accept you are making a different story. 

Cool story, bro. They've changed too much. It's a re-imagining and way too far from the source material. Feel free to disagree.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Cranglevoid said:

Cool story, bro. They've changed too much. It's a re-imagining and way too far from the source material. Feel free to disagree.

 

 

And things like that, after receiving a long, careful explanation about why the changes were necessary, are why it feels like discussing these topics is done in bad faith.  If you can't accept even be bothered to read Sir_Charrid's careful explanation about why the changes were made, you can't accept the premise of what an adaptation into this format must be.  Nothing that will fit this format and be successful on TV will be acceptable to some. They won't even try to consider it.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

How is this a re-imagining? The basis of the story is the same, what Rafe had to do was find ways of getting important information to the audience who have not read the book in the limited amount of time. The scenes that people seem to complain about make alot of sense. Adding in the Logain stuff, allows the viewer to see how men channel, to see how they are different to women. Adding in the Aes Sedai dying, the suicide of the Warder. That is one of the key most important things that Viewers need to understand as a thread through the series because, at the last battle, if Alanna dies, the viewer needs to feel that tension, that worry about what happens to Rand. 
 

Agreed that adding the Logain scenes was an excellent addition on the front end - specifically to show the difference between male/female channeling.

 

Have to disagree with Aes Sedai death and warder suicide.  Could have been hit on when the warders were having their kumbaya moment around the campfire.  They could have even taken a few minutes to show his anguish, finding the body, and the funeral in 5 minutes of screen time.  That would have left more time for developing the main characters instead of hoping that viewers will remember a minor character 7 seasons later - "Oh my gosh!!  If Alanna dies, Rand is screwed!!!"

[Scarloc99]

31 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Agreed that adding the Logain scenes was an excellent addition on the front end - specifically to show the difference between male/female channeling.

 

Have to disagree with Aes Sedai death and warder suicide.  Could have been hit on when the warders were having their kumbaya moment around the campfire.  They could have even taken a few minutes to show his anguish, finding the body, and the funeral in 5 minutes of screen time.  That would have left more time for developing the main characters instead of hoping that viewers will remember a minor character 7 seasons later - "Oh my gosh!!  If Alanna dies, Rand is screwed!!!"

I get the argument against the Aes Sedai death and Warder Suicide, I don't know where I stand on it myself at the moment and want to see how it plays out. I was just trying to present a view as to why scenes like that might need to be added depending on what in future is planned to be removed. 

 

[SinisterDeath]

45 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

That would have left more time for developing the main characters instead of hoping that viewers will remember a minor character 7 seasons later - "Oh my gosh!!  If Alanna dies, Rand is screwed!!!"

Did you forget about Lan?

That setup is 100% for explaining what happens with Lan after Moiraine. 
It obviously sets up some extra tension with Rand... But also explains Egwene in the final battle.
 

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I don't know how you demonstrate what Rand does to protect the one power from the taint other then a crazy light show and him explaining afterwards?

Guess that'll depend on how much detail they go into the "taint" later in the show, and how well they can visually show both the Taint, and possibly the TP?

Ironically? We already got a tiny preview of Rand's show down with the DO in season 1. They really set the scene, if you will of how that could play out.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

 

And things like that, after receiving a long, careful explanation about why the changes were necessary, are why it feels like discussing these topics is done in bad faith.  If you can't accept even be bothered to read Sir_Charrid's careful explanation about why the changes were made, you can't accept the premise of what an adaptation into this format must be.  Nothing that will fit this format and be successful on TV will be acceptable to some. They won't even try to consider it.

Thankyou for the support.

I am used to it lol, people like that have the view, I don't like it so it is rubbish and I have no interest in engaging in an intelligent discussion. I can get into a debate of what you swap in and out, there is an argument that the whole Aes Sedai piece was too long and could have been replaced and I am open to that but very few people realise a sweeping statement like "add in Caemlyn" without explaining what you remove from the first season, what you re shoot and cut, how you change the script and put that other material in without impacting run time.

Those one lines statements also stop us debating the things we didn't like, I won't pretend that season 1 was perfect, as much as I had issues with Rings of Power re watching WOT straight after the production and some (not all) of the script highlighted issues with WOT production. My hope is that Covid restrictions impacted quality and season 2 we start to see what it can be but there seems to be a view of "If you don't hate it you must adore it and think it is the best thing on TV and you are wrong so nah na na nah" 🙂 

But hey ho, I tried
Right rant over lol

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Did you forget about Lan?

That setup is 100% for explaining what happens with Lan after Moiraine. 
It obviously sets up some extra tension with Rand... But also explains Egwene in the final battle.

I did not forget Lan or Egwene. I still think Stepin’s arc could have been much compressed and still gotten the point across. 

[Guest Cranglevoid]

14 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

 

And things like that, after receiving a long, careful explanation about why the changes were necessary, are why it feels like discussing these topics is done in bad faith.  If you can't accept even be bothered to read Sir_Charrid's careful explanation about why the changes were made, you can't accept the premise of what an adaptation into this format must be.  Nothing that will fit this format and be successful on TV will be acceptable to some. They won't even try to consider it.

"If you can't accept even be bothered to read Sir_Charrid's careful explanation"

 

Who says I didn't read it? Why are you making assumptions that you know nothing about? And no, "Cool story, bro" does not mean that you didn't read it. I'm simply not going to write an itemized essay about why I disagree with everything. I simply disagree with it, that's it.

 

"you can't accept the premise of what an adaptation into this format must be"

 

And I supposed you and Sir_Charrid are the ones who decide what it "must be"? Pardon me for disagreeing. Again, changes have to be made, things have to be removed, and stuff has to be added in adaptations, and in the case of WoT, they royally screwed it up by thinking they could "re-imagine the original story for a modern audience".

 

The writers and Rafe simple aren't skilled enough to pull it off and they are just making the story worse with their changes. They could have, and should have, stuck much more closely to the original.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

The writers and Rafe simple aren't skilled enough to pull it off and they are just making the story worse with their changes. They could have, and should have, stuck much more closely to the original.

I did like several changes they made.  But overall disliked many more.  So don't know that it came down to a matter of skill so much as it did to interpretation.  In the end I believe the show was crap - too many things I didn't like subjectively.  And several choices I didn't like objectively as well.

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

"If you can't accept even be bothered to read Sir_Charrid's careful explanation"

 

Who says I didn't read it? Why are you making assumptions that you know nothing about? And no, "Cool story, bro" does not mean that you didn't read it. I'm simply not going to write an itemized essay about why I disagree with everything. I simply disagree with it, that's it.

 

"you can't accept the premise of what an adaptation into this format must be"

 

And I supposed you and Sir_Charrid are the ones who decide what it "must be"? Pardon me for disagreeing. Again, changes have to be made, things have to be removed, and stuff has to be added in adaptations, and in the case of WoT, they royally screwed it up by thinking they could "re-imagine the original story for a modern audience".

 

The writers and Rafe simple aren't skilled enough to pull it off and they are just making the story worse with their changes. They could have, and should have, stuck much more closely to the original.

I am genuinely interested in what your version of the TV show would be, how would you have made it differently, what would have been the creative decisions you made? How do you get across Perrins arc in the short run time, how do you explain the politics of the tower and introduce Tar Valon in season 1? How do you get across the important aspects of the whole story across 8 episodes. Yes Rafe made some mistakes, Mat and his family made no sense as a change. I am unsure about the Steppin storyline, but I do agree with taking the story to Tar Valon earlier. 
 

again please explain how this is a re imagining from your perspective. What has changed so drastically it is no longer recognizable from the source? 

[Guest Cranglevoid]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am genuinely interested in what your version of the TV show would be, how would you have made it differently, what would have been the creative decisions you made? How do you get across Perrins arc in the short run time, how do you explain the politics of the tower and introduce Tar Valon in season 1? How do you get across the important aspects of the whole story across 8 episodes. Yes Rafe made some mistakes, Mat and his family made no sense as a change. I am unsure about the Steppin storyline, but I do agree with taking the story to Tar Valon earlier. 
 

again please explain how this is a re imagining from your perspective. What has changed so drastically it is no longer recognizable from the source? 

It's already been discussed at length and I've got better things to do than writing essays that ultimately won't lead to anything. I have no interest in convincing any of you of anything. You have your opinion and I have mine, and that's totally fine.

[SinisterDeath]

58 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

It's already been discussed at length and I've got better things to do than writing essays that ultimately won't lead to anything. I have no interest in convincing any of you of anything. You have your opinion and I have mine, and that's totally fine.

So... You just want to go into every thread and say "The show was trash, Rafe was Trash, and you should feel like trash if you liked it." duck out with no intent to have an authentic discussion?

[Guire]

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

So... You just want to go into every thread and say "The show was trash, Rafe was Trash, and you should feel like trash if you liked it." duck out with no intent to have an authentic discussion?

After RoP I think there ia something incompatible with Amazon making great tv from epic fantasy IP.  I am less likely to blame Rafe completely.  However I think the decisions in both shows to modernize the stories is going to require more talent than has been shown.  Any discussion about problems with the show runs quickly into accusations of sexism, racism, fascism, homophobia, etc.  Once accused of this behavior no amount of ernest argument is tolerated.  So I think for some people dissatisfied with the show saying its crap is about all that they can say.

[SinisterDeath]

14 minutes ago, Guire said:

Any discussion about problems with the show runs quickly into accusations of sexism, racism, fascism, homophobia, etc.  Once accused of this behavior no amount of ernest argument is tolerated.  So I think for some people dissatisfied with the show saying its crap is about all that they can say.

There's been plenty of discussions about the issues the show that don't devolve into accusing each other of isms.

The trick, is to discuss the touchy topics with Nuance. This isn't Twitter. Huge multi-paragraph posts... are encouraged.

The knee jerk memed canned responses, Like using a word that rhymes with Bloke, and typing in all caps about about the gay agenda, are going to devolve to isms pretty fast.

[Scarloc99]

18 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

It's already been discussed at length and I've got better things to do than writing essays that ultimately won't lead to anything. I have no interest in convincing any of you of anything. You have your opinion and I have mine, and that's totally fine.

It isn't about trying to "convince" some people seem to have forgotten that about human communication. It is about an expression of ideas and accepting that we might disagree and thats ok, and that maybe there might be aspects we both agree on. I am also intrigued what YOUR unique take on things is, not a repeat of what the internet says. You say it is a re imagining, why do you think that? but if you don't want to actually get into a conversation that's fine and I wish you well but, maybe think about why your on a discussion forum if your not interested in having discussions and just want to try and out shout people. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Guest Cranglevoid]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

So... You just want to go into every thread and say "The show was trash, Rafe was Trash, and you should feel like trash if you liked it." duck out with no intent to have an authentic discussion?

This topic asked, "Has Rings of Power proven that Fantasy Adaptations are really hard?", and I answered that with my take on it, which is that writers and showrunners need to stick closer to the source material and not think that they know the story better than the original author.

 

Why people like me think the show made unwarranted changes have been discussed to death already, including by me, and I'm not gonna spend a bunch of time regurgitating the same thoughts again.

 

I didn't realize voicing an opinion on this forum obligates you to partake in a marathon of discussions and debates, so I'll use the contact form to have my account deleted. I don't want to spoil the accoustics of the echo chamber.

Edited November 8, 2022 by SinisterDeath
removed troll bait comments.

[A Memory Of Why]

Sigh..

 

Anyone else excited about the Willow sequel?

[Cauthonfan4]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:26 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

How is this a re-imagining?

Brandon Sanderson said he had to look at it from the perspective a different turning of the wheel...

 

 

Are the very very broad strokes the same? yes. but that's about it.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[expat]

Quote

Are the very very broad strokes the same? yes. but that's about it.

I've never understood why people expect more than the very broad strokes to be the same when they are doing 185 book pages per hour of screen time. Covering that much material while still trying to make an interesting visual show (about an extremely lore heavy topic) is going to necessarily remove/change vast number of things. 

[Cauthonfan4]

8 minutes ago, expat said:

I've never understood why people expect more than the very broad strokes to be the same when they are doing 185 book pages per hour of screen time.

Doesn't help when Rafe dedicates an episode and a half to a storyline that never happened in the books.

 

They could have been closer to the source without sacrificing nearly as much as they did.

[Cauthonfan4]

10 minutes ago, expat said:

Covering that much material while still trying to make an interesting visual show (about an extremely lore heavy topic) is going to necessarily remove/change vast number of things. 

yeah, now imagine how much less would have been cut without all his completely unnecessary changes

[Skipp]

50 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

yeah, now imagine how much less would have been cut without all his completely unnecessary changes

A surprising amount considering he is attempting to adapt the series as a whole and not just The Eye of the World.

[expat]

Quote

yeah, now imagine how much less would have been cut without all his completely unnecessary changes

You're missing the point.  If every scene in the series came straight out of the book, your basic comment remains.  By necessity, the show will be divergent from the books because they had to cut a vast amount of material, the actors/directors have to interpret the characters and scenes, and there are lots of minimally defined concepts the series can play around with (without breaking any book cannon).  This analysis doesn't even begin to take into account production issues like cost, availability of actors/sets, expectations of the paymasters, available CGI, filming restrictions, etc.

 

Realisticaly, because of the book size, cutting 60% of the book material isn't materially different than cutting 72% of the book material.  It is STILL an interpretation of the book that has to both make sense and be visually interesting.

[DaddyFinn]

Perhaps animated version could have been more "faithful". Hard to say.