Thoughts on the article at Wotseries.com re: Aviendha, Perrin etc.

[DojoToad]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You mean other than Gaul? Cause he's basically attached to Perrin's hip for the entire series.

Right, but he doesn't bring the Aiel to Rand's cause.  I thought that is where all the changes and combining were going.  Maybe I'm just confused again.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Right, but he doesn't bring the Aiel to Rand's cause.  I thought that is where all the changes and combining were going.  Maybe I'm just confused again.

So, you're wondering why Perrin needs to meet the Aiel at all for purposes of the show? Obviously hard to say since we know that the books are only a very rough guide. But I don't know why we would conclude that it would break down the way you mentioned above (though your suggestion is sensible if they wanted to go that route). 

[DojoToad]

Yes.  While I like Bain, Chiad and Gaul, I don't think I'd miss them.  Very peripheral characters.  I enjoyed their interplay with Perrin and Faile and the Aiel jokes they threw at each other.  But not a big loss if they just go away - from my perspective...

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes.  While I like Bain, Chiad and Gaul, I don't think I'd miss them.  Very peripheral characters.  I enjoyed their interplay with Perrin and Faile and the Aiel jokes they threw at each other.  But not a big loss if they just go away - from my perspective...

Agreed. I could take them or leave them.

Does this mean you're planning to watch S2?

[DojoToad]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Agreed. I could take them or leave them.

Does this mean you're planning to watch S2?

If it is the same as S1 - absolutely not.  But if it is a big improvement, based on what I read here, then sure.

 

Fighting in the books was a big draw for me.  The way it was done in the first 4 episodes was awful.  They get more fight scenes like the Blood Snow, then I could probably swallow some of the other changes that didn't sit right with me.  Long wait in any case... Until then I'm still enjoying the interaction on DM.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

If it is the same as S1 - absolutely not. 

[Pedant mode engaged] Well, it won't be the same cause, you know, different season and all. [Pendant mode disengaged]

 

I thought the fighting in E1 was pretty good. And the blood snow was excellent. Most of the rest was okay and I'm prepared to give them a good bit of benefit of the doubt because of COVID restrictions messing with everyone's spacing. 

[Nik]

I'd argue that while there were some good fight scenes, they probably weren't the top priority of the show makers in season 1. They seem to have focused a lot more on building out the foundations of the world and the characters' relationships to one another. From what I hear, though, there will be some good fight sequences in season 2, so if that's what you're into, there may be things for you to enjoy yet.

[Nik]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I agree that is not how relationships should work.  But I've seen some where men aren't allowed to speak with other women and vice versa.  Crazy world we live in.

 

Yes, as a life-long monogamist, I tend to get blinders on to other lifestyles/cultures/options.  In this case Gaul only wanted Chiad.  But she said he could only be in relationship with her if he accepted Bain as well.  It was his choice to accept or decline - but the women set the conditions.  They were in charge of the relationship conditions if he chose to accept their terms.

 

Here's a different example that doesn't involve a pre-existing romantic partner:

 

If you want to marry someone who already has a child, you're agreeing by default to enter into a relationship with that child. You may not have been planning to become a parental figure, but that's irrelevant. The person you love and want to be with has a child, and you can't pick and choose which parts of their life you want to be involved in.

 

Chiad doesn't have a child, but she does have a first-sister, and in Aiel culture that's not a bond that can just be severed. It takes precedence over all other relationships. Just like I wouldn't date someone who wouldn't accept my child into their life, Chiad also wouldn't date someone who wouldn't accept her first-sister into their life.

[Skipp]

An interesting thought for having Perrin taught about Aiel culture.

 

It allows for the audience to learn some of the nuance of the culture before Rand.  This would still allow for Rand to fumble his way through the culture while having the audience know how he is fumbling.

[WhiteVeils]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

An interesting thought for having Perrin taught about Aiel culture.

 

It allows for the audience to learn some of the nuance of the culture before Rand.  This would still allow for Rand to fumble his way through the culture while having the audience know how he is fumbling.

That's a great point.  

 

One of the things an adaptation HAS to do is spread out the exposition. You can't have 20 minutes of exposition to share everything you want to share about a culture.  The audience loses interest and it's dull.  You have to have 2 minutes of exposition over 10 scenes in order to make it work.   Also, if the exposition is important, you need to re-share parts of it 2 or 3 times so that it sinks in and the audience remembers it. Therefore, when setting up the culture of the Aiel, you need to have lots of scenes with and about the Aiel to spread that exposition out in, and earlier is better. We got our first exposition about the Aiel in Episode 3 of Season 1, and more in Epsiode 5 and 7.  We can expect that pattern to continue as they try to frontload as much exposition as possible so the lift is much lighter later on.

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, Nik said:

 

Here's a different example that doesn't involve a pre-existing romantic partner:

 

If you want to marry someone who already has a child, you're agreeing by default to enter into a relationship with that child. You may not have been planning to become a parental figure, but that's irrelevant. The person you love and want to be with has a child, and you can't pick and choose which parts of their life you want to be involved in.

 

Chiad doesn't have a child, but she does have a first-sister, and in Aiel culture that's not a bond that can just be severed. It takes precedence over all other relationships. Just like I wouldn't date someone who wouldn't accept my child into their life, Chiad also wouldn't date someone who wouldn't accept her first-sister into their life.

Its a little more complicated in the books though after he makes his interest known she tells him she would not lay down the spear for him yet still continues to interact with him as if they are courting in the Aiel way. Using your example its like you said you would not date someone who could not accept your child yet you continue to flirt with them.

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

That's a great point.  

 

One of the things an adaptation HAS to do is spread out the exposition. You can't have 20 minutes of exposition to share everything you want to share about a culture.  The audience loses interest and it's dull.  You have to have 2 minutes of exposition over 10 scenes in order to make it work.   Also, if the exposition is important, you need to re-share parts of it 2 or 3 times so that it sinks in and the audience remembers it. Therefore, when setting up the culture of the Aiel, you need to have lots of scenes with and about the Aiel to spread that exposition out in, and earlier is better. We got our first exposition about the Aiel in Episode 3 of Season 1, and more in Epsiode 5 and 7.  We can expect that pattern to continue as they try to frontload as much exposition as possible so the lift is much lighter later on.

Theres plenty of POVs available to tell the audience about the Aiel already.

 

Rand overall arc especially learning from Aviendha 

Egwene learning to dreamwalk with the wise ones 

Perrin with Gaul

Moiraine with the wise ones.

 

Would have been better if they had done some of the lifting on the magic system and current world building before the end of season 1.

[DojoToad]

13 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

[Pedant mode engaged] Well, it won't be the same cause, you know, different season and all. [Pendant mode disengaged]

Absolutely true.  I guess I never took into account that S2 could be worse than S1.  In which case, I will not be watching.  But the posts here at DM should be entertaining regardless.

[WhiteVeils]

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

Theres plenty of POVs available to tell the audience about the Aiel already.

 

Rand overall arc especially learning from Aviendha 

Egwene learning to dreamwalk with the wise ones 

Perrin with Gaul

Moiraine with the wise ones.

 

Would have been better if they had done some of the lifting on the magic system and current world building before the end of season 1.

 

I wasn't talking POVs. I was talking specific scenes.  Yes, I'm sure that there will be more Aiel exposition in scenes with those characters too, assuming none will be cut. But there's a lot of exposition required and it has to be spread out much more. 

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

I wasn't talking POVs. I was talking specific scenes.  Yes, I'm sure that there will be more Aiel exposition in scenes with those characters too, assuming none will be cut. But there's a lot of exposition required and it has to be spread out much more. 

But that is my point its not like only one character has all the interaction with the Aiel and these characters themselves know basically nothing about the Aiel. Its a very natural way for the characters and the audience to learn about them at the same time and with the spread it does not have to feel like we are being crammed with exposition from one source.

[WhiteVeils]

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

But that is my point its not like only one character has all the interaction with the Aiel and these characters themselves know basically nothing about the Aiel. Its a very natural way for the characters and the audience to learn about them at the same time and with the spread it does not have to feel like we are being crammed with exposition from one source.

I'm saying that there must be even more than that.

[Dagon Thyne]

I think they are merging Gaul, Bain and Chiad into one character and having Faile become first sisters with her , and Perrin will take book Gaul's place in the love triangle.

[Mailman]

2 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I think they are merging Gaul, Bain and Chiad into one character and having Faile become first sisters with her , and Perrin will take book Gaul's place in the love triangle.

That would be a major deviation for Faile as a character. She is incredibly jealous throughout the books. Having her willing to share Perrin with another would be a massive change.

[Dagon Thyne]

Just now, Mailman said:

That would be a major deviation for Faile as a character. She is incredibly jealous throughout the books. Having her willing to share Perrin with another would be a massive change.

I think that she would be willing to share because her friendship is too important to her.  They could add a polyamrous element.  Make her and the Aiel woman lovers.  I always got that vibe from Bain and Chiad.

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I think that she would be willing to share because her friendship is too important to her.  They could add a polyamrous element.  Make her and the Aiel woman lovers.  I always got that vibe from Bain and Chiad.

I really did not get a feeling that Bain and Chiad where lovers from the books. 

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

That would be a major deviation for Faile as a character. She is incredibly jealous throughout the books. Having her willing to share Perrin with another would be a massive change.

For sure. We already see this relationship with Rhuarc’s wives and with Aviendah, Elayne, and Rand. I understand that polyamory is common among Aiel but showing this among more main characters seems overdone. 

[Nik]

I agree it would be repetitive to have it here too. They will probably want to have a variety of relationship dynamics among the main cast to keep things interesting.

[Skipp]

I still think them introducing Gaul later would work.  I liked someone's idea of making him related to Aveindha(brother?) and sharing Aveindha's Life debt/Toh once she becomes an Apprentice Wise One.

[WhiteVeils]

I don't think they are going to put Perrin in a romantic relationship with this character as auditioned (the Aiel...be it Gaul/Bain/Chiad/Aviendha) at all.  I think the jokes here about 'not a lover' should be read the exact same way as Rand in S1 saying, "If I wanted a man, I could do better'.  In the society being constructed within the show, homosexuality and bisexuality is normalized to a sufficient degree that it can be joked about and talked about casually without meaning anything other than a topic of conversation.

 

This character's words should be taken literally:  I would not be adverse to having a sexual relationship with you, but the relationship I see between us is one where I am paying an obligation off to you and that has nothing to do with sex.  

I see it as heavily larded with Aiel humor, and I think Perrin is intended to be very confused by it.

I don't see it actually romantic, and I think it's unlikely with that particular start that it ever gets there.

[Dagon Thyne]

20 hours ago, Mailman said:

I really did not get a feeling that Bain and Chiad where lovers from the books. 

I did.  Or at least that they were more than just close friends.    I always assumed that there was or had been a sexual element to their relationship.

 

The way I always saw it was that they were very close and became lovers when they were teenagers, before taking up the spear, one or both became jealous when men showed attention, and were afraid that a man would come between them, and so they chose to become first sisters in order to ensure that even if one of them did fall in love and choose to marry, they wouldn't be separated.  

Edited June 26, 2022 by Dagon Thyne