Why Graendal didn't kill Asmodean

[Leopoled Boothe]

Ok, for along time I've been a member of the Graendal killed Asmodean camp, but due to a few recent revleations I must offically jump off that bandwagon.

 

Although fans have gotten RJ to say perscious little about the identity of Asmo's murderer here is what he has said:

 

1. Very few people have sent him the correct answer.

 

2. All the clues necessary to figure it out are persent withing books 1-5.

 

Fist lets examine the first point. From what I've seen on this website as well has what I've gleened from talking to WOT fans elsewhere it would seem that Graendal is one of, if not the most popular suspect. However, this does not match up with RJ's experience. Given that Graendal is such a popular suspect it would seem that if she were infact the killer that many more people would have sent this conclusion to RJ, and he wouldn't be able to say that few people have gotten it right.

 

Now let look at the second point. While I'll admit that the case for Graendal it one of the stronger ones, the fact of the matter is that we see very little of her in the first 5 books. While people have come up with all sorts of reasons why she might have been in Camylen at the time no one has yet provided any concrete evidence that she was there. Moreover, there are really no solid clues pointing to her as the killer, rather most of the clues people present while compelling are based highly on conjecture.

 

So where are the clues pointing to the real killer. Well I was reading the "Lack of Rand" thread last night and someone pointed out that it was odd the Perrin wounded Slayer in TSR and that that event has not been mentioned since. No one seems to wonder who Lord Luc was or why he ran off. Well this got me to thinking about why Slayer was introduced at this point. Yes, I know that he was there to lead the Trolloc into the Two Rivers, but why Slayer? Couldn't any random darkfreind have done the job just as well? Then I got to thinking about what else happened between Perrin and Slayer? Then I realized that there was something else that was a little bit odd, when Perrin encounters Slayer killing wolves in TAR he persues Slayer and Slayer promptly ducks into the Tower of Ghenji for cover. Birgitte promptly appears to warn Perrin about the tower of Ghenji and explains that it is a portal to the land of the Finns. My question is why did RJ provide all this info about the Tower of Ghenji in book 4 when the tower won't play a significant role in the story for another 8 books? Moreover, why reveal this info to Perrin when he will have nothing to do with the Rescue of Moiraine (as clearly it will be Thom, Mat and Noal). The reason for all this info on the Tower of Ghenji is that it is the essential clue that RJ has talking about. RJ wanted to make it clear at this point not only the the Tower of Ghenji is a portal to Finnland, but also that Slayer has free access to Finnland via the tower.

 

So who is the real killer? The killer is Slayer acting under Lanfear's orders. Hears how I see it happening. Slayer is shot by Perrin with an arrow in TAR. Being no dummy Slayer knows the Perrin is likely to make the association between his and Lord Luc's matching wounds so he hightails it to the one place where he knows Perrin cannot follow, the Tower of Ghenji. Naturally, he decides to laylow until his wound heals. Not long after this Lanfear enters Finnland via the doorway, and for reasons we don't yet know is taken prisoner by the Finns. So at some time during her captivity Lanfear encounters Slayer in Finnland. Lanfear is obviously pissed at LTT for cheating on her and known that Slayer is bound to take order from the Forsaken she decides that she is going to take from LTT the very teacher which she so generously provided him. Therefore, she orders Slayer back to the real world with instruction to kill Asmodean. Slayer being very good at his trade quickly tracks Asmo to Camylen and commits the dirty deed.

[gaishain]

Would Asmodean have recognized Slayer though? Because Asmodean clearly recognizes his killer. Also if Lanfear is giving orders from Finn Land to Slayer to go kill people why wouldn't she order Slayer to kill Aviendha or Egwene, the two very people she suspected of Rand loving in the 1st place?

 

This is a good theory though. I like it.

[BrainFireBob]

The quote about "few have sent the correct answer" is extremely old.

 

I was in the fan community at the time, Graendal was not even on the community radar until AFTER that quote.

 

So you're taking it out of context to apply it to the popularity of the theory today. Believe me, it fit at the time.

 

Now there's a backlash against it, because the older fans dismiss the mystery and younger ones think there must be more to it, since RJ hasn't confirmed.

 

EDIT: As I recall, it was about a week after that interview quote hitting the fan community the first time that I saw David Hanlon's and Karl-Johan Novac's writeups, and I believe Karl-Johan's, at least, was in reaction. Does anyone else remember that, or did I just date myself?

[Brad]

That's a compelling argument. I've wondered why we haven't seen Slayer for such a long time, and had forgotten about his attachment to Lanfear.

[BrainFireBob]

Slayer could only have taken Asmodean from behind. Only another channeller or the Gholam would have made Asmodean's own channelling sufficiently useless he never even bothered to try. Slayer's not immune to the OP, Asmo would have seized him in flows of Air.

[Beckon]

As Bob said the RJ quote is quite old. I wasn't part of the community back then but I've seen it discussed and I agree. The idea of Lanfear ordering Slayer is just as assumptive as anything else.

 

The thing that nags at me is the somewhat disputed RJ quote about the reason why Asmo stays dead. The whole it's because of both how and where he died, not one or the other. It seems to support the notion of Moiraine/Lanfear/Slayer. Most people don't really see motive for any of those people.

 

We don't know much about Slayer's standing so we don't know if Lanfear even has the authority to order him around. Even if she previously had, she's hardly in good odor with the DO because of the docks incident. She got herself captured, and likely severed because she flew into a jealous rage after all. When next we see her she's mind tripped. I rather think Slayer's response if Lanfear tried to give him an order would be something along the lines of "make me".

[Cybertrolloc]

The reason for all this info on the Tower of Ghenji is that it is the essential clue that RJ has talking about. RJ wanted to make it clear at this point not only the the Tower of Ghenji is a portal to Finnland' date=' but also that Slayer has free access to Finnland via the tower.[/quote']

Reread that section and what Brigitte has to say. It's far from clear what actually happened there, since we learn later that Luc/Isam can just step out into the "real world" too. Asmo didn't die in this book, he dies in the next. What is in this book is practically all the main characters find out about the Finn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

While I agree that the quote mentioned is fairly old, Jordan has had ample opportunity to update his response since and hasn't done so.

 

As to Slayer/Lord Luc. If you recheck, you should find that Lord Luc returned to the Inn in Two Rivers, visibly wounded, prior to Perrin getting back from their encounter. Lord Luc left the area and hasn't been seen ( as Lord Luc ) since. Further, there is a scene where he mentally recounts his most significant kills. Two DF AS are on that list, but no mention is made of Asmodean. Killing one of the Forsaken/Chosen would top his hit parade if he'd done it.

 

Jordan has also said that only one person who has communicated with him has gotten it right and even provided the correct answer as to how Asmo was killed. Further, he also said that since everybody was having so much trouble seeing what was plainly in front of them, he'd provide additional, non-obvious clues in subsequent books. Then in the Prologue of the very next book, he provides Graendal with an alibi. She was supposed to meet Moggy, and Moggy had failed to show up for that meeting.

 

That scene with Demandred and the DO tells us two very important things:

1. Graendal did not kill Asmo.

2. Graendal is/was Demandred's spy inside the Sammael/Lanfear camp.

 

Here's a ( I think ) new counter-theory for you -

 

One of the very few things we learn about Finnland is that the architecture is strange unto totally weird. No matter which set of Finns Mat visits, about all he sees of the internal structure of their buildings is doorways. Why nothing but doors? All looking the same and all appearing to be the doorway by which he entered?

 

I think that may have to do with how the Finns do what they do. What if each of those many, many doorways connects to a different reality or time. Ask a question about the future and the Finns access a time when that question has been decided and can therefore give you a true answer as to the outcome. Ask a question about the forgotten past, and they access a time when that knowledge was current and still widely known. Again you get the answer you sought.

 

Make a wish, and the Finns, using the knowledge and artifacts available to them via their doorways into different times and places, give you the means to accomplish what you desire. Nobody waved a wand and made Mat impervious to magic, they just gave him a talisman that nullified spells cast at him. IOW, the Finns don't magically do something, they just provide the means by which the wisher can accomplish what he/she seeks for themselves.

 

Now, given all those doorways, which I think could open into anywhere or anywhen as needed, what if the doorway Asmo started to step through put him partway into Finnland and face-to-face with whomever in Finnland wanted him dead? And, that may include more than Lanfear or Moiraine.

 

Finnland or the interface between it and the real world may be the very place that the DO can't get to in order to reclaim a soul.

 

I'll leave who else might have been visiting the Finns and want Asmo dead for another time.

[Beckon]

1) Meeting with Moggy doesn't take all day.

2) Jordan has stated that he's never changed what he meant to write because of anything fans have said. Doesn't really change anything though even if he had. Meeting Moggy doesn't take all day.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Would Asmodean have recognized Slayer though?

 

At this point there is no way to say for sure. The only connection we have between them is that they both work for the Shadow so it wouldn't unreasonable to believe that they may have crossed paths before. But right now all we can say it maybe, maybe not.

 

Also if Lanfear is giving orders from Finn Land to Slayer to go kill people why wouldn't she order Slayer to kill Aviendha or Egwene, the two very people she suspected of Rand loving in the 1st place?

 

I can think of two possible reasons:

 

1. She thinks that she already got the job done herself. Egwene was in pretty bad shape after the attack.

 

2. She is confident that she will escape the Finns (because Lanfear is nothing if not confident) and wants that pleasure for herself.

[Toy and Minion]

Well I was reading the "Lack of Rand" thread last night and someone pointed out that it was odd the Perrin wounded Slayer in TSR and that that event has not been mentioned since.

 

hey, that was me! Wow, no ones ever quoted me before.

 

fyi i was just trying to bring across a point that it was strange that slayer/luc/isam was like a key point in with perrin in SR and then when perrin shows up...nothing.

 

It doesn't say what happend to him after being injured or anything. im almost halfway through CoT and i dont think slayer has been mentioned once in perrins POV since SR

 

Anywho, I have to disagree with you though, i think that Asmos killer was one of the forsaken. I don't pretend to have proof, but thats what i think.

 

a gholam doesnt seem resonable either because like mentioned before, Asmo recognized his killer.

 

Forsaken deffinatley, who, am listening to the audio CD's as im reading CoT to find out. This may not be a good idea but ive already found stuff i completely forgot about when i first read them...

 

And that concludes my blabbing.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Slayer could only have taken Asmodean from behind. Only another channeller or the Gholam would have made Asmodean's own channelling sufficiently useless he never even bothered to try. Slayer's not immune to the OP' date=' Asmo would have seized him in flows of Air.[/quote']

 

Again this is a big maybe, maybe not. There isn't sufficient information to make a judgement on this. We really don't known a whole lot about the nature and abilities of Slayer. Moreover, there is no presidented case of Slayer vs Forsaken to go on. What we do know is that Slayer is very good at what he does. So could Slayer take down of the Forsaken? Unfortunalty this query brings us right back to where we started; maybe, maybe not.

[Leopoled Boothe]

We don't know much about Slayer's standing so we don't know if Lanfear even has the authority to order him around.

 

Oh but we do. I can't remember exactlly where but at one point Slayer is thinking to himself about how he never reailly obeyed anyone's orders except the DO and the Chosen, now. So it would appear that for some reason the Chosen do have authority over him. Two most likely reasons would be either it is by the DO's orders that he obey them or that they are just so powerfull that he's afraid not to. If it is the latter then once Lanfear explained that Asmo was partially sheilded Slayer would probably jump at the opportuntiy to take down someone who used to order him around.

 

Even if she previously had, she's hardly in good odor with the DO because of the docks incident. She got herself captured, and likely severed because she flew into a jealous rage after all.

 

All very true but Slayer doesn't necessarly know any of this.

[shwang]

Hey heres something to do with the Slayer theory(although extremely unlikely ) . Asmo commented on once seeing a man hanging from a cliff clutching to a patch of grass, and when asked if he helped the man or not he gave no reply if im not mistaken. So according to the Dark Prophecy it said "Isam waiting in the High Passes", which most likely would have cliffs. So if Asmodean didnt help him and thought he fell and died, than Isam would probably be the person he would be most surprised to see out of anyone else . I have no evidence to support this at all and don't believe it myself but hey, just throwing things out there :D

[Leopoled Boothe]

I was in the fan community at the time, Graendal was not even on the community radar until AFTER that quote.

 

But that's just the thing, if Graendal is the intuativly obvious answer that RJ is talking about then it seems like she would have at least been on the Radar. At the time I thought Lanfear was the obvious answer since we really did not know what had happened to her and we had had no reason to assume she was dead (I mean she went through a doorway). I didn't abandon that theory until all the business about her being held by the Finns, dying and comming back as Cyndane came out.

 

I guess I need to be reminded of exactly what clues in books 1-5 point to Graendal. I endorsed the Graendal killed Asmodean theory due process of elimination more so that any concrete evidence (there is circumstancal evidence out the wazu but nothing concrete that I can recall).

[Leopoled Boothe]

hey, that was me! Wow, no ones ever quoted me before.

 

Then it pleases me to be the first.

 

 

fyi i was just trying to bring across a point that it was strange that slayer/luc/isam was like a key point in with perrin in SR and then when perrin shows up...nothing.

 

That is rather odd. Then again Perrin has had a one track mind though most of that time, and that track leads to rescuing Faile. Unless he thinks that Slayer can somehow help him rescue Faile he is unlikely to give him any thought :lol:

 

It doesn't say what happend to him after being injured or anything. im almost halfway through CoT and i dont think slayer has been mentioned once in perrins POV since SR

 

All I remember is that he, in the form of Lord Luc, ran off after he was injured. He has briefly appeared at least once in the later books. He even had his own POV.

 

Anywho, I have to disagree with you though, i think that Asmos killer was one of the forsaken. I don't pretend to have proof, but thats what i think.

 

Not necessarly, there were both male and female channelers in Camelyn at the time and no one seemed to detect any channeling at tthe time Asmo was killed. Therefore, it is possible that he was killed my means other than the One Power.

 

a gholam doesnt seem resonable either because like mentioned before, Asmo recognized his killer.

 

That and a gholam is completely out the the question since RJ said that all the clues are in books 1-5 and Gholam didn't show up until book 7.

 

Forsaken deffinatley, who, am listening to the audio CD's as im reading CoT to find out. This may not be a good idea but ive already found stuff i completely forgot about when i first read them...

 

Sure its a good idea. No matter how many times you read this series there is always stuff you've forgotten. Or put another way you can't read this series too many times.

[Toy and Minion]

That is rather odd. Then again Perrin has had a one track mind though most of that time, and that track leads to rescuing Faile. Unless he thinks that Slayer can somehow help him rescue Faile he is unlikely to give him any thought

 

this is true

 

All I remember is that he, in the form of Lord Luc, ran off after he was injured. He has briefly appeared at least once in the later books. He even had his own POV.

 

yes that was in WH shortly after Rand changed inns in Far Madding

 

That and a gholam is completely out the the question since RJ said that all the clues are in books 1-5 and Gholam didn't show up until book 7.

 

yes, i know, i was just saying that for my own case...srry, im a big time fiddlesticker

 

Sure its a good idea. No matter how many times you read this series there is always stuff you've forgotten. Or put another way you can't read this series too many times.

 

glad that audio CD isn't a bad idea, i was worried with myself for a wile there

[Luckers]

Ok, I dont really get involved with Asmo discussions because they have been discussed so many times that both sides have such elaborate dismissals that it becomes just an argument in semantics that neither side really listens to. I did have a few comments for this thread though i wont be looking to purport any particular theory of my own.

 

Further, he also said that since everybody was having so much trouble seeing what was plainly in front of them, he'd provide additional, non-obvious clues in subsequent books. Then in the Prologue of the very next book, he provides Graendal with an alibi. She was supposed to meet Moggy, and Moggy had failed to show up for that meeting.

 

Could you perhaps provide us with a direct quote for this comment? I'm not doubting you, its just that damnable issue of semantics again.

 

That scene with Demandred and the DO tells us two very important things:

1. Graendal did not kill Asmo.

2. Graendal is/was Demandred's spy inside the Sammael/Lanfear camp.

 

I dont really think thats a sustainable deduction. We have a hear-say comment from Graendal to Demandred that at some stage during the course of that day she had gone to an arranged meeting with Moghedian, only to find her not there. That meeting could have been scheduled as much as ten minuted after Asmodean's death, and it does not provide an alibi for the time of his death. Or two hours prior. Or four hours after.

 

It's an interesting tidbit from Demandred, ill agree, but its hardly proof, or even all that strong as evidence.

 

Then there is your second point... that Graendal telling Demandred that she was to have met up with Moghedian makes her his agent. There is no strength to such a deduction. I can point you to many times throughout the series that Graendal has met with any of a number of different Forsaken, and i can also point you to any of a number of times that Graendal has told third party Forsaken of meetings she has had with other Forsaken.

 

Moreover such a deduction is simply shown as unlikely in her actions. Graendal is no ones agent, and when they come to think that she is they usually end up dead. As i suspect will happen to Aran'gar.

 

Again this is a big maybe, maybe not. There isn't sufficient information to make a judgement on this. We really don't known a whole lot about the nature and abilities of Slayer. Moreover, there is no presidented case of Slayer vs Forsaken to go on. What we do know is that Slayer is very good at what he does. So could Slayer take down of the Forsaken? Unfortunalty this query brings us right back to where we started; maybe, maybe not.

 

Whilst i agree that it is not impossible for a non-channeler to be the killer, i find it unlikely given that Asmodean noticed the killer, and seemingly read the killers intention. RJ has stated that Slayer cannot channel, nor manifest abilities to affect channeling.

 

But that's just the thing, if Graendal is the intuativly obvious answer that RJ is talking about then it seems like she would have at least been on the Radar.

 

Actually RJ has stated that whilst HE thought it intuitively obvious, no one at the time really picked up on it. Just as an idea of interest, lets assume obvious means channeler--channeler is murdered by someone he sees... obvious answer, a channeler. Also, he recognized the person, and feared them. His betrayed peers. Obvious answer, forsaken.

 

And if it should have been intuitively obvious for US it is implied that we know that Forsaken.

 

At the time this occured we know of...

 

Be'lal - dead.

Ishamael - dead.

Lanfear - Seemed dead--wasn't in fact, but im only looking at what seemed to be the case for us as readers at that moment in the story.

Rhavin - dead.

Graendal - Alive.

Sammael - Alive.

Balthamel - dead.

Aginor - dead.

Moghedian - captured.

 

Now, we were led to believe that Sammael was sitting, waiting to be attacked--we have a plan that suggests thats what he was doing. I admit, again, we have no proof he was doing that, im only, again, looking at what seemed to be to us as the reader at the moment in question.

 

Graendal was somewhere waiting for Lanfear to contact her (and Rhavin) so as to join with them. Given that between the two obvious (seeming! Seeming! Don't hurt me!) suspects at that time, she is the most likely to have been near Caemlyn, waiting to join with Rhavin for the attack...

 

The intuitively obvious person IS Graendal.

 

Now, im not saying that there arn't arguments against her, or arguments for others. Or even still questions like motive. Despite what it sounds im not actually trying to suggest Graendal as a suspect. I'm saying the most basic path of reasoning (which usually means it should be disreguarded) suggests that Graendal did it.

 

Now, normally i would likely sarcastically mock someone who suggested a person as a murder suspect based on such a superficial line of reasoning, i was just looking at what RJ might have concidered to be an intuitively obvious line of reasoning at the time of the murder.

[Beckon]

That's pretty much the nutshell version of why I think it's Graendal. The intuitively obvious line to me says the details are not spelled out. All the other Forsaken are either dead or accounted for. The four are plotting together. Two are taken out of commission earlier in the day. Sammmy is supposed to be in Illian as bait for Rand. The attempt on Mat's life is, I think, a clue that the trap is sprung. They don't expect Rand to let the murder of a close friend slide. Lanfear is in Caemlyn to confirm that Rand will move on Illian to avenge Mat's death and Graendal and Rhavin are Caemlyn so that once Lanfear shows up and gives the word, the three can arrive in Illian together. Lanfear never shows but Rand does, Graendal decides it's best just to stay out of it (though we don't know she didn't do anything since the vast majority of the battle is from Rand's PoV and in TAR). Asmodean opens the door onto Graendal's hiding spot and there you have it.

 

I admit it's shakey around the parts where everything blows up and why doesn't Graendal just get the heck out? That could be at least in some part because she wants to be seen to hold up her end of the bargain in case Rhavin gets out alive...at least until she's sure what's going on. Why didn't Rand go to Illian? Where's Lanfear? She wouldn't mourn the loss of any of the other Chosen of course but she doesn't want to be seen as completely untrustworthy either. I mean if Rhavin survived and then Graendal was nowhere to be found, maybe he blames her. Maybe he thinks she and Lanfear plotted between them to do him in. It would make her a target of the others.

 

Basically I feel that our attention in this book is repeatedly drawn back to the four, and then in the end it's all for nothing because Rand flies off in a rage over something completely unrelated to what they're doing and goes after the wrong person. If Graendal didn't do it then all that seems way too arbitrary IMO.

[grump]

I don't think anybody has mentioned that Slayer shows up first in the Great Hunt as part of the writing on the cell wall.

Then he stomps all over the SR. He kills the 2 black sisters in Tear, the girls see Lans mean twin in the world of dreams. Slayer is in fact in charge of the attack on Edmonds Field. He is playing games with Perrin then too.

Who assigned him all this ? He later points out he only takes orders from the DO or the Chosen. Would't this indicate he knows them,and they not only know him , but what he does ?

We assign him the role of a minor player , but is he not in fact a Dreadlord, and just one level under the Chosen ? Who knows if he did the deed, why , or for who ?

The above just points out it is difficult to rule him out.

[BrainFireBob]

Slayer wasn't in Fal Dara. As I recall, Jordan elucidated that one. NOT Slayer.

[Beckon]

Slayer wasn't in Fal Dara. As I recall' date=' Jordan elucidated that one. NOT Slayer.[/quote']

 

He means he was mentioned in the dark prophesy that was scrawled on the wall. Though it was Isam specifically and not "Slayer".

[mègon]

I admit it's shakey around the parts where everything blows up and why doesn't Graendal just get the heck out?

 

I'd like to point out that all of the channeling inside the castle is being done by Men. Graendal will not feel a thing. There wasn't enough destruction going on in the real world to shake the castle to its core' date=' because they fled to TAR so soon, so she may not even have had any idea everything was blowing up.

 

For all we know, she traveled to the spot where she was supposed to meet Lanfear as was just patiently waiting for Lanfear to show up so they could go up to Rhavin and get everything started.

 

So she's just chilling out impatiently waiting for Lanfear, maybe she wanders around a bit, but who's to say she would've felt anything with only males channeling, and runs into Asmo. *pow* he's gone, and Aviendha doesn't worry about feeling the small amount of channeling just assuming that it is an AS or Wise One somewhere close by.

 

Slayer wasn't in Fal Dara. As I recall, Jordan elucidated that one. NOT Slayer.

 

It's not just that Jordan may have hinted at it.

 

It is showed in later books that Slayer can enter and exit the World of Dreams at will. But we don't know this, yet, so I will not use it as an argument.

 

We don't know, at this point, that Slayer isn't just a male dreamer, like Perrin (Wolf-dream = male dreamer, they seem equivalent). So we'd have to assume that Slayer had to Travel via normal means to get to Caemlyn, or sent there via Gateway.

 

From the Two Rivers, or the surrounding country (where we last saw him) and all they way to Caemlyn in a day to kill Asmo after Lanfear found him in the 'finn world and ordered Asmo killed... not likely. And Lanfear couldn't open a gateway from the 'finn world to Caemlyn on her own, or she would've just used it to leave.

 

Also, at this point we don't know that Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken or the DO or where he gets his orders. We just know he doesn't like Perrin and wanted to scourge the Two Rivers with Trollocs, for all we know (and this is the impression I got my first read-through) Slayer is just like Fain; an evil person making their own agenda for their own reasons and able to control creatures of the Dark.

 

With the information we have up to this point, Slayer just doesn't fit anything well enough to be considered.

[grump]

Megon How long did it take Eguene to get to Salidar in the world of dreams ? Remember also that asmo was killed the same afternoon as Lanfear fell through the door. She was checking up on Rand and may have decided he was becoming to strong too fast to control with asmos help. I have no problem thinking in order to keep her hands clean she might have ordered some one else to take care of it before the door

I'm just saying excluding him for the reasons you gave won't work.

[grump]

I'm sorry something else occured to me. RJ says that there are enough clues in the first 5 books to figure it out. Didn't Grendal take the stage for the first time in book 5 . so there would be no clues to discover in books 1-4 Slayer is mentioned how often?