What was Moiraine's plan if the dragon was a woman?

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, Andra said:

There are two (and a half?) links between the Eye and the Dragon Reborn.

The first is the pool of untainted Saidin.  The whole idea of "need" being used to get there, it pretty much guarantees that only the DR would ever be able to both find the Eye, and use it.

The second and a half are what's hidden in the pool.  The Dragon Banner, and the Horn.

 

I call the Horn only half a link, because though it's only used in the books to aid him, according to the lore it could be used by someone else.

But we have no idea why the Eye was needed.  And clearly another male channeler could use the Eye, Aginor in this case.  We have alot of assumptions as to why the Eye was created, possibly due to the foretelling touched upon in tSR. 

[Andra]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

But we have no idea why the Eye was needed.  And clearly another male channeler could use the Eye, Aginor in this case.  We have alot of assumptions as to why the Eye was created, possibly due to the foretelling touched upon in tSR. 

My understanding from everything eventually told to the readers later in the books is that the purpose of the Eye was to hide the things it contained from everyone except the DR.  The Banner, the Horn and one of the Seals.  The "need" which made it accessible was to get those things because the DR had to have them.

 

Aginor could use the Eye once it was found, but it took the need of the DR to find it in the first place.

 

Moiraine is supposedly the only person in 3000 years to have found it twice, and she couldn't use it.  Anyone else who could use it (like Ishamael, Aginor or Balthamel - or even Taim) couldn't have found it in the first place.  That's basically what "Ba'alzamon" intended all along.  To get someone there with "need" who could pin it in place in the real world long enough for his people to get to it.

[Truthteller]

7 hours ago, AdamA said:

It's exactly what I mean about downstream impacts. From the perspective of historical lore, the existence of the Eye of the World at all only makes sense because the Aes Sedai of the time knew for sure the dragon had to be reborn as a man. They wouldn't need to create a pool of untainted saidar because saidar isn't tainted. So changing lore to allow for a female dragon now means the storyline no longer matches the world logic, but they feel the need to include the Eye anyway because they want to hit the same plot points, so they shoehorn it in without ever coming up with any satisfying explanation of why the Eye even exists, let alone how it works. Apparently, the Horn of Valere isn't even there any more, so the Eye is just a seal. But there are many seals. So why does the fight even need to take place there? As far as we can tell, because that's what happened in the book is the reason, but the actual reason from the book is gone, so it no longer makes any sense.

 

I still sympathize with whatever happened in the writer's room. If they had people telling them that gendered souls denies the existence of trans and gender-fluid people and the savior has to be male trope is outdated and offensive, fine, but you have to weigh whatever you think you gain by changing that with the harm done to the story. You can't just assume you'll be able to rewrite all the parts that depend on the lore being what it is in a way that is equally coherent and satisfying. It's arrogant to think you can do that, given all the schedule constraints of television, when one of literature's all-time great world builders took decades to craft your starting point. At a certain point, you're better off just writing a different story completely.

This captures what went wrong with the show very well.  And the result is that no one is satisfied.  Book lovers don’t like it because it is so different from the books.  Non readers might like some of the changes for a while (like the dragon mystery) but are ultimately let down because there are too many holes in the story and they haven’t been given enough information for any of it to make sense.

[ilovezam]

5 hours ago, Andra said:

I suspect that's the way they will play it.

The shorts all seem to know more about the world than any of the living characters do.

Yeah, the shorts seem much more lore friendly than the show. 

 

It seems ridiculous that modern Aes Sedai do not at least know about the two halves of the Power though. They routinely capture male channelers and given that they know about the taint you would think some of them bothered to study them.

[ashi]

5 hours ago, Andra said:

I call the Horn only half a link, because though it's only used in the books to aid him, according to the lore it could be used by someone else.

 

Quote

The Great Hunt, chapter 47

 

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.” Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.

 

A Memory of Light, chapter 39

 

Hawkwing nodded toward something nearby. Rand’s banner; Dannil still held it aloft. “We arrive here to gather at the banner. We can fight for you because of it, Gambler, and because the Dragon leads you—though he does it from afar. It is enough.”

 

A Memory of Light, chapter 45

 

Panicked, Mat looked about. “The banner! I dropped the bloody banner!” Olver smiled, looking up at the sign made by the swirling clouds. “It will be fine—we’re beneath his banner already,” he said, then lifted the Horn and blew a beautiful note.

 

Technically, someone else could blow it, but according to Hawkwing, the Heroes would not fight for anyone but the Dragon, though of course the characters believe they would fight for whoever blows the horn.

Edited January 27, 2022 by ashi

[Andra]

43 minutes ago, ashi said:

 

 

Technically, someone else could blow it, but according to Hawkwing, the Heroes would not fight for anyone but the Dragon, though of course the characters believe they would fight for whoever blows the horn.

Actually, that's not quite what they say.

They say that - if the Dragon is there - they must fight for him.

But if the Horn is sounded in some circumstance where the Dragon isn't involved, they can fight for them.  As long as it doesn't mean fighting for the Shadow.

 

Because they can tell that fighting for Mat means fighting for the Dragon in MOL, they can do it.

 

At least that's the implication from other details related in the books.

We know that at least one of those things (that they would fight for either side, whichever sounded the Horn) is wrong.  But it still looks like they only have to follow the Banner and the Dragon if they're actually present.

 

---

But if your interpretation is correct, it means that the Eye has three things that link to the DR, not just two and a half.  It's still one of the things in the Eye that he needs.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Andra

[ashi]

9 minutes ago, Andra said:

Actually, that's not quite what they say.

They say that - if the Dragon is there - they must fight for him.

But if the Horn is sounded in some circumstance where the Dragon isn't involved, they can fight for them.  As long as it doesn't mean fighting for the Shadow.

 

Because they can tell that fighting for Mat means fighting for the Dragon in MOL, they can do it.

 

At least that's the implication from other details related in the books.

We know that at least one of those things (that they would fight for either side, whichever sounded the Horn) is wrong.  But it still looks like they only have to follow the Banner and the Dragon if they're actually present.

Disagree, though I suppose it is logically possible.

 

At least I read "We can fight for you because of [the Dragon banner], Gambler, and because the Dragon leads you—though he does it from afar. It is enough." as saying that the banner and the Dragon leading are necessary requirements for their taking part in a battle. To me, it would be an odd thing to say if the Dragon was not necessary (and just precluded their fighting for someone else if he was present). "It is enough" I take to mean that the banner and the Dragon leading means that the requirements for their fighting have been fulfilled, without which they would not have taken part.

 

Moreover, what would be the point of Hawkwing noting "You are here. The banner is here" at Falme if the heroes could have fought anyway?

Edited January 27, 2022 by ashi

[Andra]

1 minute ago, ashi said:

Disagree, though I suppose it is logically possible.

 

At least I read "We can fight for you because of [the Dragon banner], Gambler, and because the Dragon leads you—though he does it from afar. It is enough." as saying that the banner and the Dragon leading are necessary requirements for their taking part in a battle. To me, it would be an odd thing to say if the Dragon was not necessary (and just precluded their fighting for someone else if he was present). "It is enough" I take to mean that the banner and the Dragon leading means that the requirements for their fighting have been fulfilled, without which they would not have taken part.

 

 

No, I can definitely see your point.

It's one of those issues that book fans will probably debate for years to come.  I've personally come down on either side of the debate myself ever since the end of Great Hunt.

 

It's actually a completely moot point, unless someone gets approval to write additional stories and have them be considered canon.  Since the only times in the books that it comes up, the Dragon and the Banner are both present.

[ashi]

14 minutes ago, Andra said:

But if your interpretation is correct, it means that the Eye has three things that link to the DR, not just two and a half.  It's still one of the things in the Eye that he needs.

Yes, I agree. To me it seems obvious that the Eye was made in preparation for the Need of the Pattern, the instrument of which is it's greatest ta'veren, viz. the Dragon.

Edited January 27, 2022 by ashi

[ashi]

2 minutes ago, Andra said:

No, I can definitely see your point.

It's one of those issues that book fans will probably debate for years to come.  I've personally come down on either side of the debate myself ever since the end of Great Hunt.

 

It's actually a completely moot point, unless someone gets approval to write additional stories and have them be considered canon.  Since the only times in the books that it comes up, the Dragon and the Banner are both present.

Fair enough! :)

[Andra]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Yeah, the shorts seem much more lore friendly than the show. 

 

It seems ridiculous that modern Aes Sedai do not at least know about the two halves of the Power though. They routinely capture male channelers and given that they know about the taint you would think some of them bothered to study them.

Well, Siuan did say Logain would be kept in the Tower to be "studied."

But how much study would anyone except the Browns really want to do?  I don't even think Reds would want to get in on that.

 

We know that the Yellows in Salidar didn't want anything to do with him.  Because everyone (including in the Age of Legends, apparently) thought severing couldn't be Healed.

[ashi]

52 minutes ago, Andra said:

No, I can definitely see your point.

It's one of those issues that book fans will probably debate for years to come.  I've personally come down on either side of the debate myself ever since the end of Great Hunt.

 

It's actually a completely moot point, unless someone gets approval to write additional stories and have them be considered canon.  Since the only times in the books that it comes up, the Dragon and the Banner are both present.

 

Quote

S1E8

[Uno] The Horn of bloody Valere, lad.

[Yakota] To be blown at the Last Battle. To call the Pattern's greatest heroes to stand at our side.

[Perrin] Well, then let's hurry up and get it.

[Yakota] We're not going to use it. It's for the Dragon. Without it, they won't stand a chance.

 

Maybe some old Shienaran lord found the horn and tried to blow it during some trolloc attack, only to get told off by Hawkwing because the Dragon wasn't there, thought to himself "that sucks" and buried it under the throne. Show headcanon (and it explains why they didn't try to use it, too!)?

Edited January 27, 2022 by ashi

[SingleMort]

5 minutes ago, ashi said:

 

 

Maybe some old Shienaran lord found the horn and tried to blow it during some trolloc attack, only to get told off by Hawkwing because the Dragon wasn't there, thought to himself "that sucks" and buried it under the throne. Show headcanon (and it explains why they didn't try to use it, too!)?

It must suck having the wrong lord try to blow your horn ?

[Andra]

19 minutes ago, ashi said:

 

 

Maybe some old Shienaran lord found the horn and tried to blow it during some trolloc attack, only to get told off by Hawkwing because the Dragon wasn't there, thought to himself "that sucks" and buried it under the throne. Show headcanon (and it explains why they didn't try to use it, too!)?

Sounds about right.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Andra

[DaddyFinn]

5 hours ago, Truthteller said:

And the result is that no one is satisfied.  Book lovers don’t like it because it is so different from the books.  Non readers might like some of the changes for a while (like the dragon mystery) but are ultimately let down because there are too many holes in the story and they haven’t been given enough information for any of it to make sense.

So nice that you know what everyone else thinks.

[Ralph]

17 hours ago, AdamA said:

It's exactly what I mean about downstream impacts. From the perspective of historical lore, the existence of the Eye of the World at all only makes sense because the Aes Sedai of the time knew for sure the dragon had to be reborn as a man. They wouldn't need to create a pool of untainted saidar because saidar isn't tainted. So changing lore to allow for a female dragon now means the storyline no longer matches the world logic, 

 

Sorry not following. Why is the possibility it would be a male Dragon not enough of a reason?

 

Besides the fact that they didn't know what it was for when they made it, as others have said. 

[king of nowhere]

Or maybe they did know the dragon would be man in the AoL, but the knowledge got lost - or at least became uncertain. As the argument between moiraine and siuan went, they are translations of translations of translations, who knows what got mixed up?

[Andra]

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Sorry not following. Why is the possibility it would be a male Dragon not enough of a reason?

 

Besides the fact that they didn't know what it was for when they made it, as others have said. 

The people who made it knew what it was for.  It's just that people 3000 years later might have forgotten.  And the readers who were confused as a result.

 

If the Dragon could be reborn as a woman, then she could never have gotten the things she needed from it.  Because they were hidden by something she couldn't touch.

 

It took "need" to find the eye, and a male channeler to use up the Saidin in the well before the things in it could even be seen, much less retrieved.  A female Dragon might have had the "need," but she couldn't have emptied the well to get the Horn and the Banner from inside it.

 

It's clear that, in the books, there was never any possibility of a female Dragon Reborn.

[Andra]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Or maybe they did know the dragon would be man in the AoL, but the knowledge got lost - or at least became uncertain. As the argument between moiraine and siuan went, they are translations of translations of translations, who knows what got mixed up?

But in the show, there's no longer a pool of untainted saidin.  Nor are the Horn and the Banner hidden there.  It's no longer a repository for things the Dragon needs, it's now the physical location of the patch on the Dark One's prison.

In effect, in the show the Eye has replaced the Pit of Doom.

 

Remember that in the show they also say that there have been female False Dragons - something else completely alien to the books.   So the idea of a female Dragon Reborn isn't the result of forgotten knowledge.  It's written in the show as if it really always was a possibility.

[Ralph]

14 minutes ago, Andra said:

The people who made it knew what it was for.  It's just that people 3000 years later might have forgotten.  And the readers who were confused as a result.

 

If the Dragon could be reborn as a woman, then she could never have gotten the things she needed from it.  Because they were hidden by something she couldn't touch.

 

It took "need" to find the eye, and a male channeler to use up the Saidin in the well before the things in it could even be seen, much less retrieved.  A female Dragon might have had the "need," but she couldn't have emptied the well to get the Horn and the Banner from inside it.

 

It's clear that, in the books, there was never any possibility of a female Dragon Reborn.

Of course in the books there was not. I was querying why changing that obviated the need for the pool. 

 

I had not realised you meant it would create a problem of accessing horn and banner, rather than that it was not needed. 

 

Interesting point. 

 

Thank you

[ashi]

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Sorry not following. Why is the possibility it would be a male Dragon not enough of a reason?

 

Besides the fact that they didn't know what it was for when they made it, as others have said. 

 

It is not a fact. In fact, it is the opposite - they knew what, or who, they made it for:

 

Quote

The Shadow Rising, chapter 26, The Dedicated

 

[Jonai] shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword - perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling - held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?
  “What good is your Foretelling,” Oselle was almost shouting, “if you cannot tell us when?” Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. “The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself?”
 

[...]

 

  “Can we trust Kodam and his fellows, Solinda?”
  “We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and ... And we have no choice.”
  “Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more.”

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by ashi

[Andra]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Of course in the books there was not. I was querying why changing that obviated the need for the pool. 

 

I had not realised you meant it would create a problem of accessing horn and banner, rather than that it was not needed. 

 

Interesting point. 

 

Thank you

Yeah, that was one of the examples in the books that showed the possibility that Moiraine's knowledge might be mistaken.

Moiraine was (according to the Green Man) the only person in 3000 years to have found the Eye twice.  She knew about the pool of saidin, and apparently believed that was what it was about.  But there wasn't enough of it to have really mattered, if that was all it was.

[king of nowhere]

otoh, i never liked the whole "eye of the world" business in the book. it appears in book 1 as a sort of macguffin, it's used in a poorly explained scene, then - excepting that rhuidean flashback - it's never seen or mentioned again. and i'd argue that none of what happened there was all that important or had long-term consequences on the plot. rand gets a surge of power to temporarily defeat ishy. rand is handed a couple of plot items that he could have gotten somewhere else.

i always felt the eye of the world was there only because rj needed some kind of resolution for book 1.

[Andra]

12 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

otoh, i never liked the whole "eye of the world" business in the book. it appears in book 1 as a sort of macguffin, it's used in a poorly explained scene, then - excepting that rhuidean flashback - it's never seen or mentioned again. and i'd argue that none of what happened there was all that important or had long-term consequences on the plot. rand gets a surge of power to temporarily defeat ishy. rand is handed a couple of plot items that he could have gotten somewhere else.

i always felt the eye of the world was there only because rj needed some kind of resolution for book 1.

I felt the same way about Portal Stones.

They are used twice in book 2, once in book 4, then never again until a very brief appearance in book 13. 

And that last appearance didn't even need to be one.

 

At least Waygates continue to crop up throughout the series after Traveling makes them almost unnecessary.

 

It's one of the problems with such a large and complex story.  Some elements will always fade into irrelevance in something like this.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Andra

[wastingtime]

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but wouldn't it be pretty much what we see with a certain reincarnated forsaken character later on in the books? IE the physical body is female, but the soul -and the associated half of the One Power - is still male...