What was Moiraine's plan if the dragon was a woman?

[Andra]

7 hours ago, wastingtime said:

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but wouldn't it be pretty much what we see with a certain reincarnated forsaken character later on in the books? IE the physical body is female, but the soul -and the associated half of the One Power - is still male... 

It's possible that the changes the show makes to the lore would account for that.  Though there is (so far) no indication that the Aes Sedai in Rafeworld have ever encountered a woman who could channel a power they couldn't see.  Or a man channeling a power they could.

But it doesn't align with the lore in the books.  In which souls are gendered, and only reincarnate into bodies of the same gender.

 

That particular change was made artificially, not by the natural process of rebirth.  I would call it a resurrection, not a reincarnation.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Andra

[DigificWriter]

If the Dragon had been female, Moiraine could and likely would have had her trained as/by an Aeis Sedai, maybe not to the fullness of her power and potential, but enough for the Dragon to trust herself enough to not be hesitant in embracing the One Power in confronting the Dark One, after which point it would be a matter of letting the Pattern weave itself out and being prepared to do what was necessary if her (Moiraine's) gamble failed.

[Andra]

On 2/7/2022 at 7:00 AM, DigificWriter said:

If the Dragon had been female, Moiraine could and likely would have had her trained as/by an Aeis Sedai, maybe not to the fullness of her power and potential, but enough for the Dragon to trust herself enough to not be hesitant in embracing the One Power in confronting the Dark One, after which point it would be a matter of letting the Pattern weave itself out and being prepared to do what was necessary if her (Moiraine's) gamble failed.

But she appears to have believed the Dragon needed the sa'angreal she brought in order to actually win.  And the implication (both from its appearance, and her description of how it was made) is that it's a male sa'angreal.  If the dragon had been female, they wouldn't have been able to use something she believed was absolutely necessary.  No amount of training would have been sufficient.

 

It's possible that the changes to the lore would permit a woman to use it, or that she had another one secreted somewhere around that we never see.  But without those changes, a woman would have supposedly been guaranteed to fail.

[nsmallw]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:03 AM, WhiteVeils said:

Except, like, they have a whole animated  addon feature just explaining this specific thing in detail in pure exposition. Just because it hasn't been fully expressed in the show yet to your satisfaction doesn't mean it's not there.

the point of those additional featurettes is because Rafe and company have been  unable to get Amazon to pony up more money and episodes to explain the system fully which is really sad.

 

Unrelated question:  Do folks think that the Sea Folk will be in the show ?

[Cauthonfan4]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

the point of those additional featurettes is because Rafe and company have been  unable to get Amazon to pony up more money and episodes to explain the system fully which is really sad.

Counterpoint. When you spend an episode and a half on something like stepin, when you could use it instead on world, character and magic development...

[Andra]

3 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Counterpoint. When you spend an episode and a half on something like stepin, when you could use it instead on world, character and magic development...

It's like saying they couldn't film a scene in a particular way because they were limited by the size of the set.  A set that was built specifically to film that one scene. ?

 

5 hours ago, nsmallw said:

the point of those additional featurettes is because Rafe and company have been  unable to get Amazon to pony up more money and episodes to explain the system fully which is really sad.

Given the way the companion materials frequently coincide with the books better than the on-screen material, I suspect the featurettes were mostly created first.  And I think Rafe didn't fully explain things in the episodes because they were already there, not because of budget constraints.

Since those explanations wouldn't have cost any more than what actually got in.

 

5 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Unrelated question:  Do folks think that the Sea Folk will be in the show ?

I doubt it.  Not as portrayed - as a separate secretive culture.

If you're trying to cut material that isn't really necessary, what better place to cut it from?

[DigificWriter]

On 2/9/2022 at 3:56 PM, Andra said:

But she appears to have believed the Dragon needed the sa'angreal she brought in order to actually win. 

 

I didn't come away from her conversation with Rand with the impression that she thought that the Dragon - regardless of who it was -couldn't have won without a Sangreal.

 

I got the distinct impression that her conversation with Rand was specific to him being the Dragon because of his gender.

[Andra]

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I didn't come away from her conversation with Rand with the impression that she thought that the Dragon - regardless of who it was -couldn't have won without a Sangreal.

 

I got the distinct impression that her conversation with Rand was specific to him being the Dragon because of his gender.

It's not about the conversation, it's about the sa'angreal she brought, and told him to use.  One that - if the magic system remains the same - would have been useless to a woman.

 

If she thought the DR could have won without it, why even bring it?

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

It's not about the conversation, it's about the sa'angreal she brought, and told him to use.  One that - if the magic system remains the same - would have been useless to a woman.

 

If she thought the DR could have won without it, why even bring it?

Perhaps she had a sackful of such oriented ones to cover all the bases? 

[Andra]

10 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Perhaps she had a sackful of such oriented ones to cover all the bases? 

 

Which is why I said this in the rest of the comment you responded to:

On 2/9/2022 at 3:56 PM, Andra said:

It's possible that the changes to the lore would permit a woman to use it, or that she had another one secreted somewhere around that we never see.  But without those changes, a woman would have supposedly been guaranteed to fail.

 

 

We don't ever see another, and she had this one from the beginning of the episode one opener.

It's possible that she had more, but why show us just this one (before she had any idea who the Dragon was) if she did?

[DigificWriter]

@Andra When you're on a job or mission, you bring all the tools or resources that you have, even if you don't need them.

 

The fact that she had the sangreal and ended up giving it to Rand doesn't mean that it was necessary for the defeat of the Dark One in a general sense.

[Raal Gurniss]

43 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

Which is why I said this in the rest of the comment you responded to:

 

 

We don't ever see another, and she had this one from the beginning of the episode one opener.

It's possible that she had more, but why show us just this one (before she had any idea who the Dragon was) if she did?

Or did she know who the Dragon was and only behaved that way to be PC to avoid potentially offending the DR and anyone else?

[Andra]

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

@Andra When you're on a job or mission, you bring all the tools or resources that you have, even if you don't need them.

 

The fact that she had the sangreal and ended up giving it to Rand doesn't mean that it was necessary for the defeat of the Dark One in a general sense.

Except that Rafe made a point of showing us this specific resource (and no others) in the opening scene of the very first episode.

Why do that if it was just one of an indeterminate number of tools?  Or if it wasn't necessary?

 

Unless you're claiming he is a worse writer than even most of his critics here believe, it was written in because she believed - from the very beginning - it would be needed.  And not something else.

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Or did she know who the Dragon was and only behaved that way to be PC to avoid potentially offending the DR and anyone else?

That's one of the possible implications.  That the whole "the Dragon could be a woman" thing was something she knew was BS all along.

[king of nowhere]

51 minutes ago, Andra said:

That's one of the possible implications.  That the whole "the Dragon could be a woman" thing was something she knew was BS all along.

how about "she thought so, but wasn't completely sure"?

some people here argue like knowledge is binary, you either know or you don't. and that's not how it works. it's easy to find hints, but very hard to confirm for certain. So, perhaps moiraine had an inkling that the dragon would be a man, but she wasn't sure enough to discard other options entirely?

maybe there was a prophecy saying that, but she wasn't sure it wasn't mistranslated and so she brought all the ta'veren she could find just to be sure?

[Andra]

10 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

how about "she thought so, but wasn't completely sure"?

some people here argue like knowledge is binary, you either know or you don't. and that's not how it works. it's easy to find hints, but very hard to confirm for certain. So, perhaps moiraine had an inkling that the dragon would be a man, but she wasn't sure enough to discard other options entirely?

maybe there was a prophecy saying that, but she wasn't sure it wasn't mistranslated and so she brought all the ta'veren she could find just to be sure?

While that's all certainly possible, one of the things to take into account is that this is a piece of written fiction.  And one of the rules for good writing is, "don't bring it up, if you're not going to use it."  Otherwise known as "Chekov's Gun." (Final Jeopardy response tonight ?).

 

Rafe showed us Moiraine with the sa'angreal in the opener to the first episode.  He showed it to us again right before the Eye.

The implication is that Moiraine knew - at the beginning - that it would be necessary, and that other things wouldn't be.

[king of nowhere]

20 minutes ago, Andra said:

While that's all certainly possible, one of the things to take into account is that this is a piece of written fiction.  And one of the rules for good writing is, "don't bring it up, if you're not going to use it."  Otherwise known as "Chekov's Gun." (Final Jeopardy response tonight ?).

 

Rafe showed us Moiraine with the sa'angreal in the opener to the first episode.  He showed it to us again right before the Eye.

The implication is that Moiraine knew - at the beginning - that it would be necessary, and that other things wouldn't be.

i disagree. by that reasoning, checkov gun implies that people in stories never take preparations that are not needed.

it is equally plausible that moiraine undertook many other preparations, but since they ended up unnecessary, they were not shown in the movie. just in the same way that we never see people buying food, but the conclusion is not "food pops magically for them", but rather "it's not something that impacts the story"

[Andra]

17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i disagree. by that reasoning, checkov gun implies that people in stories never take preparations that are not needed.

it is equally plausible that moiraine undertook many other preparations, but since they ended up unnecessary, they were not shown in the movie. just in the same way that we never see people buying food, but the conclusion is not "food pops magically for them", but rather "it's not something that impacts the story"

No, "Chekov's Gun" is (as originally formulated) explicitly about the object.

The end of the rule is, "if it doesn't end up being important, don't put it there."

 

Putting the sa'angreal in the very first scene of the series means that it specifically is important.  Not just as one among several useful things, but critically important itself.

 

It's plausible that she undertook other preparations.  It isn't plausible that this is the only preparation shown to the audience if that's true.  Unless Rafe is a worse writer than even his critics claim.

 

Plotwise, unseen food isn't remotely in the same ballpark as an unseen sa'angreal.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Andra

[Revenant13]

since Moiraine can't teach the dragon to channel if they were a man, I think she would just teach the dragon if they were a woman. Make things "easier" for herself and the White Tower. 

 

*if someone said this already, I don't mean to steal thunder.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Revenant13
added information

[WhiteVeils]

Realized the blindingly obvious answer.  Moiraine was taking the potential Dragons to Tar Valon.  If the Dragon was a man, she had the male s'angreal to help him, but obviously she had to keep it and keep it secret because he was a man.  That's why she had it with her.

If the Dragon was a woman, she could have asked at Tar Valon for any s'angreal she wanted to give to the Dragon.  She didn't need to keep a secret one to give her.

 

When she was exiled from the Tower, she didn't have time to get a big s'angreal from the Tower, and I think at that point she had a pretty good hunch that it wasn't Egwene or she'd have used more power against Valda.  And Nynaeve was too old.

[Andra]

16 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Realized the blindingly obvious answer.  Moiraine was taking the potential Dragons to Tar Valon.  If the Dragon was a man, she had the male s'angreal to help him, but obviously she had to keep it and keep it secret because he was a man.  That's why she had it with her.

If the Dragon was a woman, she could have asked at Tar Valon for any s'angreal she wanted to give to the Dragon.  She didn't need to keep a secret one to give her.

 

When she was exiled from the Tower, she didn't have time to get a big s'angreal from the Tower, and I think at that point she had a pretty good hunch that it wasn't Egwene or she'd have used more power against Valda.  And Nynaeve was too old.

Except that she herself made the point that the prophecies - even the one she was an eyewitness to - were potentially unreliable. 

Moiraine explicitly refused to dismiss either Egwene or Nynaeve as the Dragon Reborn at the time they all left the Tower.  And she at least knew Egwene could channel.  At that time she had no evidence that any of the boys could do so at all.  So whether someone might have used more power was completely irrelevant.

 

If she could have asked for a female sa'angreal so easily, why didn't she?  Siuan knew exactly what Moiraine was doing.  Hell, she was the one who sent her to the Eye.  And rather than being surprised by the exile, and being left with no time as a result, remember that it was Moiraine's idea in the first place.  She told Siuan to exile her the night before in the love shack. 

Why wouldn't she have made sure she had at least an angreal a female Dragon could have used?

She could have.  But she didn't.  Or at least Rafe didn't show her doing so.

 

Unless Rafe is a worse writer than even his critics claim, the only reason for that is because all the posturing about a female Dragon, or a Many-Headed Dragon was BS all along, and the principals knew it the whole time.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Andra

[WhiteVeils]

As I said:

Moiraine didn't have time to get a s'angreal and her movements were being watched after the fact.  It's not necessarily easy to get a s'angreal...it may take a whole vote from the Sitters of the Hall. But per the original plan, a female Dragon could be announced to the whole tower, easily, and there wouldn't be a problem having the Hall vote. 

But also, yes, I think she suspected that Egwene was not the Dragon Reborn ONLY after Emon Valda, and even then she didn't know for sure.  But if she had told Egwene she wasn't and should stay in Tar Valon, Rand would not come.  Rand had made very clear that he didn't trust Moiraine.

 

As for 'terrible writer Rafe posturing about a female Dragon', please.  Whether the world allows female Dragons or not, it was a requirement to allow for the possibility of Egwene and Nynaeve to be a Dragon once the decision had been made to go to Tar Valon and showcase some of the  Aes Sedai Politics and New Spring material in book 1.  If they go to Tar Valon, and Moiraine knew Nynaeve and Egwene were /not/ the Dragon, there was no need at all for Egwene and Nynaeve to go to Fal Dara, where they could be killed. They could continue their training in Tar Valon. 

Honestly, forcing Egwene and Nynaeve into the blight at all is a bit of a Robert Jordan plothole...they're not the Dragon, so why would Moiraine drag them through this hostile environment where almost certain death awaits, for no reason?  She could have left them safely in Fal Dara, or send them on from Camelyn to Tar Valon...they're grown women.  Making them potential dragons gives them a reason to be in Fal Dara in the first place. Even if Moiraine suspected it might not be Egwene after Valda, there was a chance, so she took her. And it meant that Rand would go.

[Andra]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

As I said:

Moiraine didn't have time to get a s'angreal and her movements were being watched after the fact.  It's not necessarily easy to get a s'angreal...it may take a whole vote from the Sitters of the Hall. But per the original plan, a female Dragon could be announced to the whole tower, easily, and there wouldn't be a problem having the Hall vote. 

Actually, what you said was "If the Dragon was a woman, she could have asked at Tar Valon for any s'angreal she wanted to give to the Dragon.  She didn't need to keep a secret one to give her."  Which implies that it would have been relatively easy to do.

And as she told Siuan to exile her before anyone would have been watching her movements, they would have been able to get one a female channeler could use before anyone knew a thing about it.

As you said yourself, she would have needed to keep the male sa'angreal secret.  So how did she get that one what appears to be two years ahead of time?

 

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

As for 'terrible writer Rafe posturing about a female Dragon', please. 

That's not what I said.

I said that either he was a terrible writer (for violating a well-known principle of written fiction known as 'Chekov's Gun' mentioned earlier) OR the possibility the Dragon could be anything other than an individual male channeler was mere posturing all along.

 

And you can't justify something as a requirement when it was only required by something he invented in the first place.  But even if you do, it still leaves unanswered the question this entire thread is about:  What was Moiraine's plan if the Dragon was a woman?

 

She'd had what is believed to be a male-only sa'angreal since at least the opening of the first episode, which appears to have been two years earlier.  She obviously believed it would be needed.  We have no evidence she had one a woman could use.  Yet when she left Tar Valon for the last time, she still thought one of the women with her could be the Dragon.  And she had made no attempt to get one in the one place she could have.

 

And twice you have mentioned Egwene not using much Power against Valda as some sort of evidence against her being the Dragon.  But why would she have been expected to be any stronger?  She was untrained, not weak.  And Moiraine had no idea at that point that Rand (or any of the boys) could channel at all - much less more than Egwene.

[WhiteVeils]

Being a little obtuse?

Once again. BEFORE Moiraine went to the Two Rivers, she considered two possibilities: That the Dragon Reborn was male, or that the Dragon Reborn was female. 

At that time she had no idea when, where, or how the Dragon Reborn would confront the Dark One. 
 

If the Dragon Reborn was male, then she knew she could do little to help him. However, she knew that if he was male, the Tower would try to capture and gentle him before he could face the Dark One.  She knew she would have to keep him secret and safe until that confrontation would occur, and then help him in that confrontation as best she could.  

In order to assist him, she secured a male-source s'angreal for him to use to help him. That was the most help she could give a male Dragon. 

 

If the Dragon Reborn was female, her plan was to take them to Tar Valon.  There was no need for secrecy then. The girl could be presented to the Hall, and the Hall could provide any kind of aid they wished, including a s'angreal for women, a linked circle, whatever would be needed.  I did not say it would be easy for Moiraine to sneak one away, but if the Dragon was female, there would be no need to steal one.  One could be provided, because the Hall would not have a problem with a female Dragon.

 

As circumstances turned out, she reached the Two Rivers, and she didn't know if the Dragon was one of the men or one of the women. She took them to Tar Valon (or planned to) both for safety and, if it was Egwene, that was where her plan would take them anyway.  Events, however, occurred to cause her exile, before she could discover which person was the Dragon Reborn.  She did not have a backup plan of being exiled; that was not expected, but she rolled with it, though she was not able to secure a s'angreal for the Dragon itself on the eve of her exile.  She may have tried, or not...we don't know. 

 

As to why Egwene facing Valda being an indication to Moiraine that Egwene was not the Dragon, it is the same thing as she told Rand on the way to the EOTW.  Moiraine believes, because of her own experience, that if the Dragon is faced with overwhelming terror and need, the way she was during her beatings, the power would come.  That was her experience, that was what she told Rand would happen for him.  She may have had doubt about Egwene being the Dragon after Valda because the power did not come then, at least not more than a trickle.  Not what Moiraine specifically has stated she expects to happen for the Dragon.  It is not definitive, and it doesn't have to be definitive for Moiraine -- she did bring Egwene anyway --, but that might contribute to her not necessarily having to try to steal a s'angreal at the last minute just in case.

 

 

[Andra]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Being a little obtuse?

Not so far.

You?

 

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

If the Dragon Reborn was male, then she knew she could do little to help him. However, she knew that if he was male, the Tower would try to capture and gentle him before he could face the Dark One.  She knew she would have to keep him secret and safe until that confrontation would occur, and then help him in that confrontation as best she could.  

So why bring him to Tar Valon at all, and put him directly in their hands?

Having a male sa'angreal wouldn't help him if she handed him to the Reds.

 

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

If the Dragon Reborn was female, her plan was to take them to Tar Valon.  There was no need for secrecy then. The girl could be presented to the Hall, and the Hall could provide any kind of aid they wished, including a s'angreal for women, a linked circle, whatever would be needed. 

And yet she did none of that.  Instead, she hid them from the Tower as much as she could.

 

"Events" didn't cause her exile, Moiraine did that intentionally herself.  In part so she could continue to hide any potential Dragon she had from the rest of the Tower.  She didn't "roll with" her exile, it was her idea.

 

Moiraine was not present to witness what happened between Egwene and Valda.  But she saw that Egwene wasn't injured - only Perrin.  Nothing in what she was told about it indicated Egwene had faced "overwhelming terror and need," or that she had been beaten even once.  She had no information about how much power Egwene had channeled, or any reason to believe it should have been more than it was.  But at least she knew for certain that Egwene could actually channel.

 

If we are to believe what the show is implying, Valda's technique has worked to overpower and execute seven full sisters.  Why would anyone have realistically expected someone who had never been trained (even the Dragon) to have stood up to it with no idea what they were doing?

 

Again, Moiraine knew that Egwene (and Nynaeve) could channel, but had no idea if any of the boys could at all.  And she didn't until Rand told her about it.  AFTER she had already left Tar Valon without a female angreal or sa'angreal, or any way to get her hands on one.  But with a male sa'angreal she'd had since at least her very first scene in the show.