How different is too different?

[Gothic Flame]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

Mat abandons Rand in tGH once he learns he can channel.

What the...?

Do you even remember the events that happened? Because it doesn't seem that you do...at all.

Ingtar...horn...dagger all in the last chapters. And guess who sounds the Horn? 

[Andra]

6 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Mat abandons Rand in tGH once he learns he can channel.

 

6 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

What the...?

Do you even remember the events that happened? Because it doesn't seem that you do...at all.

Ingtar...horn...dagger all in the last chapters. And guess who sounds the Horn? 

 

Yeah, I was going to say something on that.

 

Mat (AND Perrin) avoid Rand because they think he's putting on airs.  But they don't in any way abandon him.  He had actually threatened to abandon them.

 

All that time, they didn't know he could channel.

 

They learn he can channel when they see him with the Dragon Banner that Moiraine had hidden in his saddlebags, which he had just yelled about.  Because he still thinks she wants to set him up as a false Dragon for some devious purpose.

 

The only thing that they do differently after that is to sleep on the other side of the camp.

 

The night they learn he can channel is the night he(?) activates the Portal Stone.  And he disappears.

[Skipp]

20 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

What the...?

Do you even remember the events that happened? Because it doesn't seem that you do...at all.

Ingtar...horn...dagger all in the last chapters. And guess who sounds the Horn? 

The Great Hunt, Chapter 11, Glimmers in the Pattern;

 

After stopping for the night on the hunt for Fain Ingtar gives Rand the bundle from Moiraine.  Rand sneaks into the woods and finds it to be the Dragon Banner.  Mat and Perrin follow him and find out he can channel.  Mat tells Rand that he won't stay near him much on their journey, "you just are not the same any more", and leaves.

 

Now while this is solved by Rand/Lanfear using the Portal stone it doesn't change Mat's initial reaction is to not be around Rand as much as possible.  By the time Rand and Mat reunite in Cairhein I don't recall this plot point being brought up again though. 

 

I may have been stretching by using the word abandon but it is not like Mat could leave the Shienarians as they were his only hope to retrieve the dagger.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Skipp

[Gothic Flame]

8 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

I may have been stretching by using the word abandon but it is not like Mat could leave the Shienarians as they were his only hope to retrieve the dagger.

"...may have?"

There was no abandonment here.

You misrepresented Mat because you prefer Rafe's rotten characterization.

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

"...may have?"

There was no abandonment here.

You misrepresented Mat because you prefer Rafe's rotten characterization.

Mat telling Rand that him that he isn't same anymore and doesn't want to be around him isn't abandonment?  Especially after after Rand and Mat were taking care of each other on the way to Camelyn while Dagger/Channeling sick?

 

Hell yes that I would that is abandonment.  We never got to see the extent of it one way or another due to the portal stone.  Not everyone will see it the same way as I but that was a shitty friendship on his part.

[Andra]

15 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Mat telling Rand that him that he isn't same anymore and doesn't want to be around him isn't abandonment?  Especially after after Rand and Mat were taking care of each other on the way to Camelyn while Dagger/Channeling sick?

 

Hell yes that I would that is abandonment.  We never got to see the extent of it one way or another due to the portal stone.  Not everyone will see it the same way as I but that was a shitty friendship on his part.

It's not abandonment.  It's a snap reaction to a shock.

He didn't leave, and didn't threaten to.  He was only saying he would keep his distance within the party.

 

And neither of them knew on the way to Caemlyn that either of them were sick from the dagger or channeling.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's not abandonment.  It's a snap reaction to a shock.

He didn't leave, and didn't threaten to.  He was only saying he would keep his distance within the party.

 

And neither of them knew on the way to Caemlyn that either of them were sick from the dagger or channeling.

You're right, they didn't know what was causing the illness for either of them at the time.

 

As I said before Mat couldn't leave or threaten to, he needed to recover the dagger.  But by making clear to Rand  "he wasn't the same anymore" and would stay clear of him for the journey is what I see as abandoning a friend especially at a time when said friend is dealing with something devastating personally.  While Mat could be said to be having practical self-preservation reasons to the new we don't get to see how this would have played had Rand not gone portal surfing.  While we can label it as a shock reaction, one that Mat eventually overcomes, it was still his initial reaction

 

I apologize for using the word abandon as it certainly suggests something stronger that was shown in book.  When i first read the book I certainly felt like Mat had abandoned Rand in a time of need.

 

We also get a hint that Mat did something bad to Rand in one of the **Flicker** possibilities.  While that is not something to lay much stock into we know that they are all possible worlds.

[Gothic Flame]

41 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Mat telling Rand that him that he isn't same anymore and doesn't want to be around him isn't abandonment? 

You're making judgments based upon mere words. He also hated the squalling children in one scene even as he gave a fistful of coin into the mother's hands.

He also says he isn't a hero...

This is him; saying all kinds of outrageously negative things one moment, while showing a heart of gold the next.

Judge by actions...

[Spiritweaver1]

Just a little more fuel to the fire. Do we think the show Matt can actually get to this point.

 

"Tuon looked at him, squatting there by the map, moving his fingers over its surface, and suddenly she saw him in a new light.  A buffoon?  No.  A lion stuffed into a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different.  Toy was loose on the high plains now.  She felt a chill.  What sort of man had she entangled herself with. "

 

In the books Matt comes from a very solid background with parents who love him.  As the twig is bent so grows the tree say the gardeners.  I would submit that the show Matt depicted so far can never transform into the Matt many of us know and love in the books.  Let alone somebody who can win the heir to Seanchan throne.   He is too far bent as evidenced by his failure to go through the Ways when the fate of the world may be resting on it.  Naturally the show team can do anything they want including turning him into the reincarnation of Ishamael.  Somehow I don't think they are going to get him to the point where I quoted from KoD.   Excuses from show ferrets pay coin little for me.    

Edited January 26, 2022 by Spiritweaver1
fix spelling errors

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

You're right, they didn't know what was causing the illness for either of them at the time.

 

As I said before Mat couldn't leave or threaten to, he needed to recover the dagger.  But by making clear to Rand  "he wasn't the same anymore" and would stay clear of him for the journey is what I see as abandoning a friend especially at a time when said friend is dealing with something devastating personally.  While Mat could be said to be having practical self-preservation reasons to the new we don't get to see how this would have played had Rand not gone portal surfing.  While we can label it as a shock reaction, one that Mat eventually overcomes, it was still his initial reaction

 

I apologize for using the word abandon as it certainly suggests something stronger that was shown in book.  When i first read the book I certainly felt like Mat had abandoned Rand in a time of need.

 

We also get a hint that Mat did something bad to Rand in one of the **Flicker** possibilities.  While that is not something to lay much stock into we know that they are all possible worlds.

 

It's not so much about whether his reaction was warranted or not, it's about whether he would have maintained it had Rand not disappeared via the Portal Stone.  And given their interactions once they reunited in Cairhien, I think it's fair to expect that he wouldn't have.

 

Any resentment he showed after that point was all about Rand getting a big head, and Mat being expected to act like a servant.  Not because he could channel.

 

The response when he found out about the channeling was snap reaction to the shock.  A response I have no doubt he would have reconsidered if he'd been given the time to.

 

Friends can have flares of anger with friends.  Friends can trade insults with friends.  Neither of those things make them enemies unless they continue after consideration.  Mat's reaction was a flare that would have cooled off after consideration.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Andra

[Spiritweaver1]

7 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

You're making judgments based upon mere words. He also hated the squalling children in one scene even as he gave a fistful of coin into the mother's hands.

He also says he isn't a hero...

This is him; saying all kinds of outrageously negative things one moment, while showing a heart of gold the next.

Judge by actions...

Yes indeed.  To paraphrase, one action is worth a 1000 words.  His failure to go into the Ways with the world at stake is all the action I need to judge the show Matt against my Matt according to my value system and show Matt doesn't have what it takes.  This was a serious character development error by the show team.  Barney's departure could have been handled differently as several posters have already pointed out.  The show is so sloppy we don't even know if he is really healed if he is the team doesn't need to chase the dagger.  And of course Loial was stabbed by the tainted dagger twice which should have finished him off in about 2 minutes max based on other characters who get to feel it's bite. 

 

 

[Truthteller]

3 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Just a little more fuel to the fire. Do we think the show Matt can actually get to this point.

 

"Tuon looked at him, squatting there by the map, moving his fingers over its surface, and suddenly she saw him in a new light.  A buffoon?  No.  A lion stuffed into a horse-stall might look like a peculiar joke, but a lion on the high plains was something very different.  Toy was loose on the high plains now.  She felt a chill.  What sort of man had she entangled herself with. "

 

In the books Matt comes from a very solid background with parents who love him.  As the twig is bent so grows the tree say the gardeners.  I would submit that the show Matt depicted so far can never transform into the Matt many of us know and love in the books.  Let alone somebody who can win the heir to Seanchan throne.   He is too far bent as evidenced by his failure to go through the Ways when the fate of the world may be resting on it.  Naturally the show team can do anything they want including turning him into the reincarnation of Ishamael.  Somehow I don't think they are going to get him to the point where I quoted from KoD.   Excuses from show ferrets pay coin little for me.    

That this isn’t evident to everyone makes me question their literacy.

 

Just like Rand, Mat’s entire character depends upon his upbringing.   Change that and you change everything.  It is the single most important theme in the entire series, and the show has not only missed it, they have overturned it.

 

At least with Rand they just ignored his relationship with his father rather than destroying it.  
 

The people who are making the show fundamentally misunderstand the books.  It is that simple.  

[SingleMort]

4 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

That this isn’t evident to everyone makes me question their literacy.

 

Just like Rand, Mat’s entire character depends upon his upbringing.   Change that and you change everything.  It is the single most important theme in the entire series, and the show has not only missed it, they have overturned it.

 

At least with Rand they just ignored his relationship with his father rather than destroying it.  
 

The people who are making the show fundamentally misunderstand the books.  It is that simple.  

Mat essentially got a soft reboot during book 2. My hope is they use the recasting to do something similar with TV show Mat. If new TV show Mat is more like book Mat and completely ignores what came before in season one I am totally fine with that if it gives us a Mat that's closer to the books. 

[Jaysen Gore]

Mat and Lan are Hollywood changes; I don't blame Rafe for them, because either he made them because he's a product of the system, or because he was told to, and doesn't have the stroke to say no to everything they want. I'm sure there are notes from Amazon execs pushing them towards generic trope-land.

 

In someone's immortal words, don't hate the player, hate the game...

[Chivalry]

I think Mat will be OK. There's no way the show turns him to the Dark Side. Moraine's annoying suggestion to the contrary seems like just another misdirect to stir the anxiety of book readers and build suspense among non-readers.

 

These kind of feints come off as silly (Oh no, they killed Loial...you bastards!), but I think it's pretty obvious even to the non-book folk that we're not watching GOT.

But if they reveal that Mat killed that poor farm family, even under the influence of the dagger...that's probably enough for me to quit.

[Jaysen Gore]

4 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Yes indeed.  To paraphrase, one action is worth a 1000 words.  His failure to go into the Ways with the world at stake is all the action I need to judge the show Matt against my Matt according to my value system and show Matt doesn't have what it takes.  This was a serious character development error by the show team.  Barney's departure could have been handled differently as several posters have already pointed out.  The show is so sloppy we don't even know if he is really healed if he is the team doesn't need to chase the dagger.  And of course Loial was stabbed by the tainted dagger twice which should have finished him off in about 2 minutes max based on other characters who get to feel it's bite. 

 

 

On Mat - No one is so lost to the Dark that they can't come back to the light...

 

On the sloppiness - yup; I agree. But it also continues to emphasize that Moiraine Damodred is wrong. A lot. What if Gandalf was a Blue Wizard wrong.

 

On Loial - yeah, this was dumb. 

[notpropaganda73]

11 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Oh I get you don't see it the way I do. You refuse to consider another perspective if it undercuts the notion that the show was well done. It makes no sense, regardless of you calling it interesting or not. What you're not doing is admitting you are not trying to see it more fully by incorporating other perspectives, and you do not want to.

Being obtuse is not the same as having an opinion. Even having an opinion is not the same as gaining more information and broadening  one's perspective to enhance and flesh out an opinion over time. You're being purposefully obtuse.

 

 

You are calling me purposefully obtuse but frankly I think you're being purposefully adversarial. Being honest it's felt a little out of nowhere and gone from a disagreement about Agelmar to now being told I ignore anything that doesn't fit with a notion that the show was well done. I repeat - have you read any of my posts about the show?

 

To take a step back for a moment, you quoted me saying that I think it would be a more interesting dynamic if the Borderlands were not a monolith of wise flawless leaders who were respectful of Aes Sedai. You said that the culture of the Borderlands being on the frontlines creates those traits. I said I didn't understand how the culture has been changed in the show. You then tell me I'm ignoring things because it doesn't fit with how I feel about the show. And so here we are sniping back and forth.

 

ilovezam and I talked a little about it as well in between posts. I even said I agree with their wider points about Agelmar in the show? So how am I ignoring other perspectives?! Honestly, am I going mad? If I'm coming across as someone refusing alternate perspectives or as someone who loves the show unconditionally, then please make that clear by quoting where that is coming across, because it's not my intention. I've gained a lot from reading perspectives on the show that I disagree with from this board. I'd even say that my general optimism for S2 has dimmed quite a bit since the finale from reading others' well reasoned criticisms on here.

 

Again, I don't understand the needless adversarial nature of your post. 

 

11 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

You found him interesting, and I'm saying he's laughably bad as a commander and leader. The change is from a great commander to a pathetic and petty one: interesting, or bad? What was interesting about that change? What interesting thing did it give you to ponder? Does the change cheapen him, now that you've seen other perspectives on it? Or are you glad he was cheapened? How does taking a stalwart character from the book and making him pathetic not count as a crime against the book? Surely you must have reasons and good answers for these questions, so I can see what is so interesting about this change. I'd love to have my perspective broadened.

 

I didn't say I found him interesting. I said I can understand trying to give Agelmar a different slant to try and make him more interesting. Even if he is laughably bad as commander and leader, in the context of a nation on the frontline, that could make for interesting dynamics. Much like Denethor or Theoden being blind to the problems facing them until it's almost too late. Having a nation that faces the threat of the DO on a daily basis being less welcoming of Aes Sedai could make for interesting dynamics. However, as I've said ad nauseum, the show has not explored this in any depth so it hasn't worked. 

 

Once more, I didn't like what we got in the end with Agelmar. So no, I wasn't glad - but that doesn't mean I don't think the core idea was bad. This gets back to something I've said repeatedly as well, most of my issues with the show I think come down to bad writing, rather than bad ideas. 

 

Hopefully I've been clear here but honestly, can I ask you to stop telling me I'm being obtuse or ignorant or whatever else? It's needless and gets my back up, so I end up snapping back. If I've said something that has gotten yours up, then I'm sorry, it's not my intention.

[WhiteVeils]

We don't yet know why Mat left, for starters.  My belief is that he left because Moiraine told him before they went to the waygate that if the Dragon joined the Dark One it would break the world and it would be better if they never went near the place, and any who go who aren't the Dragon would die in either event.  He can't afford to die...he has sisters to take care of.  And he doesn't want to destroy the world.  He has just been facing the evil in himself and is at this point very aware of his darkest side...he was on the verge of caving to the dagger.  He stayed because he thought of he were the Dragon he would cave.  He didn't stop the others from going because he thinks they are heroic and good.  Unlike him.

 

All this doesn't even require Moiraine to tell him more than she has already said privately to Lan....or even less if you think Mat is smart enough to have a decent BS detector. (Which I think he is.)

 

His staying is virtuous, in this way, a realistic assessment of the situation and acting for the best of the world.

 

In the books he gets memory holes that drive much of his plot. But Jordan never shows anything important he forgot..he just thinks he has them in his head.  To do this on screen, he is going to need more serious amnesia...he has to forget very important things.  Like his sisters. 

He's going to forget, I think, almost everything and need to stich himself back together.

It never was his memories of a cozy childhood that drive Mat forward anyway...he doesn't remember it. He never even thinks about seeking out Abell at the end, or inquiring about his mom. And BTW it sucks that there are people who think you can't be good or heroic if you come from a past raised with abuse.  

[Humbugged2]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

 

 

 

To take a step back for a moment, you quoted me saying that I think it would be a more interesting dynamic if the Borderlands were not a monolith of wise flawless leaders who were respectful of Aes Sedai. You said that the culture of the Borderlands being on the frontlines creates those traits. I said I didn't understand how the culture has been changed in the show. You then tell me I'm ignoring things because it doesn't fit with how I feel about the show. And so here we are sniping back and forth.

 

 

 

Yet Tenobia of Saldea wrote to the Amyrlin to stay out of her way because they were meddling in her affairs and Elaida tried to kidnap her

[Lethira the second]

48 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

We don't yet know why Mat left, for starters.

 

Mat left because the actor left.  They will eventually contrive a reason for him not going through the gateway but this was not a decision taken by the writers, it is a patch up job to temporarily fix a difficult situation.

[Pukel-man]

59 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

We don't yet know why Mat left, for starters.  My belief is that he left because Moiraine told him before they went to the waygate that if the Dragon joined the Dark One it would break the world and it would be better if they never went near the place, and any who go who aren't the Dragon would die in either event.  He can't afford to die...he has sisters to take care of.  And he doesn't want to destroy the world.  He has just been facing the evil in himself and is at this point very aware of his darkest side...he was on the verge of caving to the dagger.  He stayed because he thought of he were the Dragon he would cave.  He didn't stop the others from going because he thinks they are heroic and good.  Unlike him.

 

All this doesn't even require Moiraine to tell him more than she has already said privately to Lan....or even less if you think Mat is smart enough to have a decent BS detector. (Which I think he is.)

 

His staying is virtuous, in this way, a realistic assessment of the situation and acting for the best of the world.

 

In the books he gets memory holes that drive much of his plot. But Jordan never shows anything important he forgot..he just thinks he has them in his head.  To do this on screen, he is going to need more serious amnesia...he has to forget very important things.  Like his sisters. 

He's going to forget, I think, almost everything and need to stich himself back together.

It never was his memories of a cozy childhood that drive Mat forward anyway...he doesn't remember it. He never even thinks about seeking out Abell at the end, or inquiring about his mom. And BTW it sucks that there are people who think you can't be good or heroic if you come from a past raised with abuse.  

WV, from reading many of your posts, my impression is that you impose much of your own internal thinking on what the show is. You speculate and manufacture ways to overcome the bad writing on the show. It's fine, you like the show, and that's fine. But just understand that your internal additions to the content don't help the rest of us. You're a passionate fan, I respect that.

[nsmallw]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:06 PM, Pukel-man said:

After the first episode, there was never another thought about Mat being "desperate." It gives the impression that the business of being "for the sisters" was a throwaway, or something added to make a shallow and dark character more sympathetic.

 

As for the part I underlined, you're reading things that are not there. We can't impute our own interpretations on the characters, we have to respond to what we're shown. Moiraine said he's evil. His actions are, taken together, pretty rotten. I don't think it's hasty at all to say Mat is a villain, this comes from eight episodes of his actions. I forgot to even mention shirking the chores at the Four Kings seedy tavern, just one more piece of bad character. Again, not a heroic character, not even a reluctant hero.

Moraine can be wrong , in fact is mostly wrong about almost everything in season 1 it seems to me

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, Lethira the second said:

 

Mat left because the actor left.  They will eventually contrive a reason for him not going through the gateway but this was not a decision taken by the writers, it is a patch up job to temporarily fix a difficult situation.

It was a weak solution.  Actors abound.  They could have plugged and played pretty easily.  How many did they interview initially?  One of those could have stepped into the breach.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Pukel-man said:

WV, from reading many of your posts, my impression is that you impose much of your own internal thinking on what the show is. You speculate and manufacture ways to overcome the bad writing on the show. It's fine, you like the show, and that's fine. But just understand that your internal additions to the content don't help the rest of us. You're a passionate fan, I respect that.

Maybe so. We all have a choice, though. We can choose to believe 'Oh, I haven't had this detail spelled out for me, so obviously the Writers /have/ to be bad and have no idea what they're doing so I'm going to hate it'. Or we can choose to think 'Oh...I haven't had this detail spelled out for me...I wonder if I missed something or there is an explanation that will come later, or if I can figure out what the reason for that is.'

The first choice leads to misery, nitpicking, and whining about things that, yes, the Show may have missed. Or the /viewer/ may have missed but the show did say (there's a reason that many people find the show gets better on a rewatch). Or the show will do in later seasons. It doesn't bring much happiness to me, and it doesn't bring much happiness to other people.  It certainly doesn't bring much enjoyment of the gift that is 'Getting to see the Wheel of Time on Screen at all'.

 

The second choice lets you enjoy the show.  I offer my internal reasons or explanations so that other people can, if they choose to actually want to enjoy the show, they can realize it could have an explanation, and there it is, and go on enjoying the show.  Or it might encourage them to find explanations themselves, either in what has been provided or in future seasons. 

I mean, why would you want to be miserable?

<shrug> If you like to bemoan it, sure. But not my deal.

[Katherine]

16 hours ago, Skipp said:

The Great Hunt, Chapter 11, Glimmers in the Pattern;

 

After stopping for the night on the hunt for Fain Ingtar gives Rand the bundle from Moiraine.  Rand sneaks into the woods and finds it to be the Dragon Banner.  Mat and Perrin follow him and find out he can channel.  Mat tells Rand that he won't stay near him much on their journey, "you just are not the same any more", and leaves.

 

Now while this is solved by Rand/Lanfear using the Portal stone it doesn't change Mat's initial reaction is to not be around Rand as much as possible.  By the time Rand and Mat reunite in Cairhein I don't recall this plot point being brought up again though. 

 

I may have been stretching by using the word abandon but it is not like Mat could leave the Shienarians as they were his only hope to retrieve the dagger.

 

16 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

"...may have?"

There was no abandonment here.

You misrepresented Mat because you prefer Rafe's rotten characterization.

 

 

NOw look..... I did not love the Mat in the Show.... but let's not pretend that Mat was loyal AF to Rand. Mat spends quite a lot of time avoiding Rand and trying to stay away from him and everything that has to do with the Dragon. I seem to remember his reluctance in taking Asha'man in his ranks even though they gained him a tactical advantage. 

 

Of all of them, Mat's prejudice against men able to channel lasted the longest.