How different is too different?

[Andra]

32 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Oh another spot to repeat myself.  It wasn't just the commander, it was the entire defensive setup.  The clearly had a structure across the Gap.  They had none of the usual things to defend a shield wall.   That wall should have been able to hold against anything the trollocs had unless Aludra goes to the dark side and provides them fireworks.  Miners might work but that is why you have cavalry in reserve.  It is pretty clear that our writing crew isn't much interested in portraying anything like a realistic battle except by accident. It takes knowledge and expertise, which the source material had.  Of course we can't tap the true source we have to do everything ourselves by hand.  Sigh it is all so difficult.  One works all day to make it beautiful and people come in and complain that the plumbing doesn't work. 

Which indicates to me that it isn't just a slight against Agelmar personally, it's a slight against the military competence of the entire culture.

At this point, we only know about the competence of Shienarans.  But I suspect he's going to make every nation on the continent just as incompetent.  Which means that the way the battle went against Logain's forces wasn't just a factor of Covid restrictions, it was specifically by design.

 

Either that, or the show has no qualified military advisors, or their advice is being ignored along with every other bit of criticism.

[Juan Farstrider]

1 minute ago, Andra said:

Which indicates to me that it isn't just a slight against Agelmar personally, it's a slight against the military competence of the entire culture.

At this point, we only know about the competence of Shienarans.  But I suspect he's going to make every nation on the continent just as incompetent.  Which means that the way the battle went against Logain's forces wasn't just a factor of Covid restrictions, it was specifically by design.

 

Either that, or the show has no qualified military advisors, or their advice is being ignored along with every other bit of criticism.

I think it's absolute ignorance, willful probably, of military competence.

Veterans are not a big part of the audience, and less probably of the writing/creative staff. But it's a major part of RJ's life and a big part of what inspired him to write the books, and Rafe has to know that. What Rafe did not know about that kind of life or that kind of circumstance should also be known to Rafe, and he should have done better by checking with some grown ups before he finished his outline.

These kinds of shows live or die by the scrutiny they can withstand. How much we can look at the details and see it all hold together, how much can they give us to think about and how that makes us think more about it, how much our minds can wander in the world they created. If it all falls apart with one thought-step in the wrong direction, there's little hope for the show. Word of mouth builds shows, unless those words are largely disappointed expletives. 

[Andra]

34 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Gonna have to call you on this since we are talking about changes.  Valda doesn't appear in the book  in this  sequence.  Child Byar was the guy who dropped the rock.  Geofram Bornhald was commanding the White Cloaks who captured Egwene and Perrin.  Child Bornhald was a much more sympathetic character than Valda who shows up later on in the books.   None the less your story is not the story but it is a story.  

 

34 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Already noted by Andra here

 

One additional thing I wanted to add to that previous post:

Geofram Bornhald was known to use the term "Questioners."  But no Questioner would have ever used the name themselves.  They consider it an insult, and have made even superiors among the Children apologize for using it.

 

They referred to themselves exclusively as the "Hand of the Light."  As in "the hand that digs out truth."

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:18 AM, Lethira the second said:

I do not believe the show suffers from lack of money, I believe the show runners did a poor job apportioning the budget.

 

I too am puzzled on where the supposed money went.  It didn't get spent on writers, special effects, or editing.  There is nothing in this show that jumps out and screams "I had a huge budget."  If it wasn't reported as around 10 Million an episode I would have honestly thought they did the whole show on a shoe string budget.  

[Raal Gurniss]

27 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

I too am puzzled on where the supposed money went.  It didn't get spent on writers, special effects, or editing.  There is nothing in this show that jumps out and screams "I had a huge budget."  If it wasn't reported as around 10 Million an episode I would have honestly thought they did the whole show on a shoe string budget.  

9 million an episode on wigs?……Perhaps Rafe had a side wig renting them out.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:53 AM, WhiteVeils said:

I've been listening to the Wheel Takes with Ali and Gus podcast (here:  Wheel Takes (buzzsprout.com)).  Ali is a professional scriptwriter and script 'polisher' (person who takes earlier drafts of scripts and cleans them up to be made professionally) for movies and television.  I used to wonder if those people saying the writing for this show is lazy or sloppy had a point, but after listening to it analyzed on this podcast, I just have to laugh. There is NOTHING about this series that is done lazily and thoughtlessly.  

Every change has been done for a reason, very intentionally, to heighten clarity or increase audience engagement and enjoyment.  So much of the point of what is going on that seems like changes are to set things up for future seasons.  They want to tell the whole story and they're doing everything that they possibly can to be able to give you ALL those moments you want, not just EOTW moments.

 

Lets assume that your premise is true and they did everything for a reason.  Having writing make no sense now only to make sense in later seasons could possibly mean you won't have an audience in those later seasons.  If you don't have enough interesting things to grab people's attention it won't matter in future years as the show won't keep going.  

 

A second thought is there is no way that Wheel Takes could have known everything is written (a take I do not agree with) with a specific purpose in mind unless they had a show insider on the podcast.  The claim there is NOTHING lazily and thoughtlessly done can be countered by the thousands of tropes they used in the first season.  In the first episode they fridged Perrin's wife.  That is as lazy as it gets.  

 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 1/16/2022 at 5:05 PM, Truthteller said:

I really wish people would stop dismissing criticisms by saying that is just an opinion.

Not everything that isn’t a fact, is therefore only an opinion.  
 

Not all opinions are equally valid.  
 

If everything is opinion there is no point in discussing anything, no point in speaking with precision, no point in giving reasons, no point to anything at all.

 

 I echo your opinion on opinions of criticism.  ?

 

Seriously though pointing out that the dialog is bad, the editing is bad and the lighting is bad is NOT an opinion.  Compared to other shows of good quality these statements are true.  Whether you care, or like these things IS an opinion.  It is ok to like a show that has bad production values.  Nobody can tell you what you like to watch.  However saying that a show has good production values because you like it doesn't make it true.

 

[VooDooNut]

40 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

 I echo your opinion on opinions of criticism.  ?

 

Seriously though pointing out that the dialog is bad, the editing is bad and the lighting is bad is NOT an opinion.  Compared to other shows of good quality these statements are true.  Whether you care, or like these things IS an opinion.  It is ok to like a show that has bad production values.  Nobody can tell you what you like to watch.  However saying that a show has good production values because you like it doesn't make it true.

 

If I like the color red, and hate the color green, and my favorite book series, The Meal Of Thyme, is adapted for TV in such a way that every scene is lit with green light, and I hate it, is that opinion on my part, or fact? What if other people find the green-lit show to be preferable to a hypothetical red-lit show? Opinion? Or fact?

[Jake Sykwalker]

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

If I like the color red, and hate the color green, and my favorite book series, The Meal Of Thyme, is adapted for TV in such a way that every scene is lit with green light, and I hate it, is that opinion on my part, or fact? What if other people find the green-lit show to be preferable to a hypothetical red-lit show? Opinion? Or fact?

 

You are mixing observable traits with opinion and engaging in a logical fallacy called a Red Herring.  Your opinion is your own.  However execution of a task is not an opinion.  If you get a C on a test your opinion could be you did well, or poorly.  However you still got a C. 

 

Just like the person who said a podcasters said the writing was all done for a purpose and not lazy.  Because a professional writer said that it must be true.  That is called Appeal to Authority.  

 

https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

 

Liking something, or not liking something does not change what the thing is.  It changes your reaction to it, but not what is observable. People aren't arguing that people can't like the writing, lighting, or edition of WOT.  They are just pointing out it is very poorly done.  That is not an opinion based on comparing to other shows of the same genre and other TV shows in general.  

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

You are mixing observable traits with opinion and engaging in a logical fallacy called a Red Herring.  Your opinion is your own.  However execution of a task is not an opinion.  If you get a C on a test your opinion could be you did well, or poorly.  However you still got a C. 

 

Just like the person who said a podcasters said the writing was all done for a purpose and not lazy.  Because a professional writer said that it must be true.  That is called Appeal to Authority.  

 

https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

 

Liking something, or not liking something does not change what the thing is.  It changes your reaction to it, but not what is observable. People aren't arguing that people can't like the writing, lighting, or edition of WOT.  They are just pointing out it is very poorly done.  That is not an opinion based on comparing to other shows of the same genre and other TV shows in general.  

The show was poorly done in comparison to other shows I enjoy.

 

The show was well made in comparison to other shows I don't like as much.

 

Both of the above are opinions, as are all critiques of works of arts and forms of entertainment.

 

Just like someone can walk into a museum, see a sculpture in the shape of a giant peach, and say it's the most evocative thing since sliced bread, I can walk into the same museum, see the same sculpture, and wonder who left this trash in the middle of the gallery.

[WhiteVeils]

Believing a piece of art, such as a show, or some aspect of that art is "Good" or "Bad" is 100% an opinion.  It is not a fact.  A fact would be 'This art is Purple" or some other measurable aspect.
Not every opinion is equally valid.  The opinion of an art appraiser who studies art and has a wide range of experience in creating or examining art, who also explains the reasoning behind their opinion, would be also an opinion, but is an opinion that is more informed and explained than the opinion of a random internet person.   
If I said that expert's opinion makes something a fact, I'd be wrong and it would be an Appeal to Authority.  But if I said that expert's opinion should be considered before fully forming an opinion of your own, I'd be using Authority the way it was intended to be used.
I am not the one saying the show is objectively good, however. I'm only saying that saying the show or aspects of the show is good or bad is an opinion.  And one many people disagree with.

As for the "Taking a Test is an opinion." Fact would be '70% of my answers matched what the creator of the test expected' or 'The grader marked my test with a C'.  Opinion would be: C is good. or C is bad.  C could be considered a great grade...especially if every previous grade was D, or everyone else in class got a D, or the test was considered to be nearly impossible to get a B on.

As to Wheel Takes, the reasons for everything is carefully explained in the Podcast, and has to do with the nature of screenwriting. So if you care to listen and learn, you'll find out the reasons.  
But I doubt you will.

Edited January 25, 2022 by WhiteVeils
Edited for "Test as Opinion" question.

[VooDooNut]

6 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Believing a piece of art, such as a show, or some aspect of that art is "Good" or "Bad" is 100% an opinion.  It is not a fact.  A fact would be 'This art is Purple" or some other measurable aspect.
Not every opinion is equally valid.  The opinion of an art appraiser who studies art and has a wide range of experience in creating or examining art, who also explains the reasoning behind their opinion, would be also an opinion, but is an opinion that is more informed and explained than the opinion of a random internet person.   
If I said that expert's opinion makes something a fact, I'd be wrong and it would be an Appeal to Authority.  But if I said that expert's opinion should be considered before fully forming an opinion of your own, I'd be using Authority the way it was intended to be used.
I am not the one saying the show is objectively good, however. I'm only saying that saying the show or aspects of the show is good or bad is an opinion.  And one many people disagree with.

As to Wheel Takes, the reasons for everything is carefully explained in the Podcast, and has to do with the nature of screenwriting. So if you care to listen and learn, you'll find out the reasons.  
But I doubt you will.

To add on to this... If sometime in the future it became apparent that hiring an art appraiser to curate a gallery leads to non-stop outrage by visitors, the gallery owner would probably give the art appraiser a swift kick out the door (expert or not) and start listening to the average "uninformed" art gallery patron. If they didn't, the business would probably fail due to lack of customers. Does this mean the appraiser is right? No. Does this mean the "average" patron is right? No. It's all contextual.

[ForsakenPotato]

I'm not sure going down the road of what experts think of Wheel of Time is going to make anyone happy. Most English Lit academics could likely write a scathing review of the books if they weren't busy writing about more prestigious material, but that clearly hasn't stopped most of us from enjoying them.

[WhiteVeils]

7 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I'm not sure going down the road of what experts think of Wheel of Time is going to make anyone happy. Most English Lit academics could likely write a scathing review of the books if they weren't busy writing about more prestigious material, but that clearly hasn't stopped most of us from enjoying them.

True.  But if a screenwriter/script doctor says "this and this and this is a sign of really good screenwriting" and someone else (not a screenwriter) says "the writing sucks and a ten year old could do better", I'm thinking the screenwriter does have something worth listening to.  You are free to agree or disagree, but the screenwriter has a valid pertenant expertise.

[ilovezam]

5 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Actually expressing vulnerable, human emotion? What is this?!

Meh. I am fully of the opinion that men overall IRL would greatly benefit if they were more in touch with their vulnerability and emotion, but that doesn't mean all fictional men have to written like that. Lan is notably characterized to be... not that. I think we needed hardass Lan before we got softer Lan, and Nynaeve should have been the impetus for that change, not Stepin.

[ForsakenPotato]

Just now, WhiteVeils said:

True.  But if a screenwriter/script doctor says "this and this and this is a sign of really good screenwriting" and someone else (not a screenwriter) says "the writing sucks and a ten year old could do better", I'm thinking the screenwriter does have something worth listening to.  You are free to agree or disagree, but the screenwriter has a valid pertenant expertise.

Yeah, not saying some criticisms aren't better thought-out or more effectively presented than others. And usually experts make theirs better by having fuller context and better points of comparison -- i.e. less "this is good or bad" and more "what does this say in relation to other works or the society in which it was created". But letting critics decide what gives you joy is still a fast way to not enjoy much of anything.

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Meh. I am fully of the opinion that men overall IRL would greatly benefit if they were more in touch with their vulnerability and emotion, but that doesn't mean all fictional men have to written like that. Lan is notably characterized to be... not that. I think we needed hardass Lan before we got softer Lan, and Nynaeve should have been the impetus for that change, not Stepin.

We're all soft on the inside. It's nice to see character role models display that same softness where others can see and respond to it.

Just now, ForsakenPotato said:

Yeah, not saying some criticisms aren't better thought-out or more effectively presented than others. And usually experts make theirs better by having fuller context and better points of comparison -- i.e. less "this is good or bad" and more "what does this say in relation to other works or the society in which it was created". But letting critics decide what gives you joy is still a fast way to not enjoy much of anything.

Right @ForsakenPotato, I actually think that's the same point @WhiteVeils is saying. And why everything should be taken as opinion, not fact. Well-stated opinions are much more interesting regardless of the credentials of the speaker.

[ilovezam]

10 hours ago, EmreY said:

Sorry, I read Aragorn when it was obviously Elrond.  My issues are not so much with Elrond but with Aragorn, and therefore also how Elrond sees him in the film.

Ah that makes a lot more sense. I think what they tried to do was to regress Aragorn's character so we could watch him grow into kingship, whereas in the books he was fully confident and ready to reclaim his place from Day 1. It worked well for me, when he finally told the dying Boromir that he would not let his people fail, it was really powerful.

Faramir too, had that character regression before he grew to become more like book Faramir. I liked that a lot less. But even then, I think both Aragorn and Faramir's overall motivations are essentially good. Aragorn has doubt because he doesn't want to fail everyone like Isildur did. Faramir was corrupted by the Ring because he desperately wants to protect his people, but they both overcome their inner demons through the course of the film.

 

 

Contrast this with show Agelmar whose position was "Stop suggesting that I get help, I can do this myself!". His sole consideration was his own pride in rejecting help and dismissing his sister, and he actually got everybody killed. To do to Aragorn what was done to him would require Aragorn to take the Ring for himself because he's confident he can bring it to Mount Doom by himself, and then fail at the end.

 

[WhiteVeils]

Why do you say that's his only consideration?

 

I honestly took that whole conversation as him not wanting to look weak and controlled by the Aes Sedai in front of his court and his people.

[ilovezam]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Why do you say that's his only consideration?

 

I honestly took that whole conversation as him not wanting to look weak and controlled by the Aes Sedai in front of his court and his people.

If you're going to risk the doom of your people because you didn't want to look weak by asking for one single Aes Sedai to help, that's pride. Despite knowing that Moiraine would have been worth a thousand soldiers he goes all alpha male with: "We have guarded Tarwin's Gap for a thousand years, and fought off armies of Trollocs that would make even an Aes Sedai blanch!" 

I'm struggling to find a positive spin for him.

 

16 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

True.  But if a screenwriter/script doctor says "this and this and this is a sign of really good screenwriting" and someone else (not a screenwriter) says "the writing sucks and a ten year old could do better", I'm thinking the screenwriter does have something worth listening to.  You are free to agree or disagree, but the screenwriter has a valid pertenant expertise.

If that's the case I wonder if you'd be more amenable to a very negative review from an alleged "Former English Language Arts teacher, present day professional writer and analyst."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPCOoorMdy0

 

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

If you're going to risk the doom of your people because you didn't want to look weak by asking for one single Aes Sedai to help, that's pride. Despite knowing that Moiraine would have been worth a thousand soldiers he goes all alpha male with: "We have guarded Tarwin's Gap for a thousand years, and fought off armies of Trollocs that would make even an Aes Sedai blanch!" 

I'm struggling to find a positive spin for him.

Why not defend against The Blight exclusively with Aes Sedai then? I empathized with a man who was probably equal parts terrified/brave/stubborn/mistrustful, but, ultimately, open enough (eventually) to the idea of aid when Moiraine offers. It's a fascinating scene. One of my favorites of this season.

[Pukel-man]

4 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

I too am puzzled on where the supposed money went.  It didn't get spent on writers, special effects, or editing.  There is nothing in this show that jumps out and screams "I had a huge budget."  If it wasn't reported as around 10 Million an episode I would have honestly thought they did the whole show on a shoe string budget.  

Jumping into this...

 

The answer to this question likely appears in the opening credits, I think. FOURTEEN producers, and just about all of them getting a title screen to themselves. The show has more producers than it has primary protagonists. Oh, right, and there are a few actors and crew. Maybe a director (you couldn't really tell that from the acting, action, and dialogue). But lots of producers! That's clearly the most important thing.  </sarcasm>

[ilovezam]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

open enough (eventually) to the idea of aid when Moiraine offers.

What? When did he ever become open for Moiraine to help? Moiraine left Fal Dara altogether by the end of Episode 7.

[VooDooNut]

Just now, ilovezam said:

What? When did he ever become open for Moiraine to help? Moiraine left Fal Dara altogether by the end of Episode 7.

He takes her warning under consideration instead of outright dismissing her.

[ilovezam]

Just now, VooDooNut said:

He takes her warning under consideration instead of outright dismissing her.

...ok dude