How different do you think the show would have been with 10 episodes, and if they had been given a full budget (like GOT season 1 funding) and if Mat hadn't been recast? (SPOILERS)

[AdamA]

It looks expensive, but I'm not sure it's money well spent. If you just want to compare to season one Game of Thrones, the OG white walkers looked terrible. The first glimpse of the Eyrie is really obvious CGI. The season one baby dragons didn't even look good yet. The only thing they did definitely better was filming King's Landing in an actual city instead of trying to make it a set. Wheel of Time spent a whole lot of money on building Shadar Logoth and Tar Valon and Fal Dara, but they're never going to look better than real cities. I think the pilot episode theatrics were money not well spent as well. They even talk about how expensive it was to build that set just to immediately destroy in the behind the scenes, but it's possible they felt they had to go all out for the pilot in order to assure the show gets approved to even make a complete season; otherwise, they could have saved that money and made a better finale.

 

I think it was always going to be a challenge. Even before it came out, most people said it should cost quite a bit more than Game of Thrones because of all the added magic and shadowspawn. Game of Thrones had a nice advantage in being able to use real cities and castles for a lot of shots rather than build sets. The dragons were a huge achievement once they were fully grown. The army of the dead had an advantage in that they were always coming in darkness or crap visibility weather, so didn't need great detail. Wheel of Time will need to learn how to use cost saving tips like that.

 

People would be forgiving if the story and characters were more consistently compelling. It looks at least as good as The Witcher, which has an identical per episode budget and similar challenges with respect to a large variety of mythical creatures and lots of magic. On the other hand, I'd say Vikings looked better on a lower budget, because like Game of Thrones, Vikings was historical fiction with a tiny bit of fantasy thrown in. Game of Thrones had a massive upgrade in season six on on, too. Look at the Kae Alexander version of Leaf and compare her to the original Leaf and it's night and day. It's also when the dragons got good and the battles became really large scale. People are just remembering those last three seasons and forgetting it was mostly just medieval political drama that didn't require a ton of special effects and elaborate sets before that. Though it was also a better show when it looked cheaper.

[aclund3]

Backing off the, 'extra episodes wouldn't have helped based on x,y,z circumstances' I do think more runtime could've really boosted the show in terms of character development (for Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and especially Rand).

The most common criticism I hear from my non-reader friends is they just didn't really care about most of the characters.  Adding moments for the EF5 to interact, show their humanity and their love for one another (especially early) could've really helped to get viewers invested in the characters themselves.  Instead of the simple mystery of, 'I wonder who the DR is' it could've been extended to 'I hope its this character cause they're my favorite!" 

In Rand's case they really needed to do more with him in the first 6 episodes so the viewers actually cared that he's the DR and about to sacrifice himself for his people.  More time with the EF5 could've helped that.

[Lethira the second]

While I agree more time with the EF5 would have improved, I feel the showrunners squandered the time budget they had.  I know that's not necessarily a popular opinion.

 

I seem to remember Brandon Sanderson mentioning he queried the scene in episode one pushing Egwene off the cliff.  The response was something like -but it looks cool, we need to hook people.  -It's one of his reddit posts.  My experience is that you don't necessarily need something cool and whacky to hook people.

 

Last night I binged a series on the Hilsborough disaster and fall out from it.  It's not something I would normally watched but a friend recommended it.  From the outset, I was caught.  OK, there's some bias as I watched it unfold on TV while it was happening.  One scene of a family interacting and I was glued to it.

 

Brandon Sanderson talks a lot about 'promise' in writing.  For me, WoT failed to keep most of its promises.  An ensemble piece where I know so little about any of the characters.  5 minutes of the show I mentioned in the previous paragraph and I understood the family dynamic.  8 hours into the first series of Wheel of Time and I know roughly the same about the EF5 as I did in episode 1.  I do know about Steppin and Karene who are now dead and Valda who is presumably so.

 

Trollocs in appear in episode one -we get a glimpse of a few in following episodes but they seem to disappear as a threat.  The opening scene we hear about how the Dark One needs to be challenged by the Dragon, but nothing happens to establish him as a threat.  Yes, there's a guy with firey eyes in the dream world, but no one explains who he is and what he's doing.  Watch and Find Out can't be the default answer to all these questions, maybe for one or two things but you end up with 8 episodes worth of questions and very little in the was of answers.  The shame is that they had opportunity with the time and money they had to build a sturdy base for the story but the decisions they took let them down.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Lethira the second

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Lethira the second said:

While I agree more time with the EF5 would have improved, I feel the showrunners squandered the time budget they had.  I know that's not necessarily a popular opinion.

 

I seem to remember Brandon Sanderson mentioning he queried the scene in episode one pushing Egwene off the cliff.  The response was something like -but it looks cool, we need to hook people.  -It's one of his reddit posts.  My experience is that you don't necessarily need something cool and whacky to hook people.

 

Last night I binged a series on the Hilsborough disaster and fall out from it.  It's not something I would normally watched but a friend recommended it.  From the outset, I was caught.  OK, there's some bias as I watched it unfold on TV while it was happening.  One scene of a family interacting and I was glued to it.

 

Brandon Sanderson talks a lot about 'promise' in writing.  For me, WoT failed to keep most of its promises.  An ensemble piece where I know so little about any of the characters.  5 minutes of the show I mentioned in the previous paragraph and I understood the family dynamic.  8 hours into the first series of Wheel of Time and I know roughly the same about the EF5 as I did in episode 1.  I do know about Steppin and Karene who are now dead and Valda who is presumably so.

 

Trollocs in appear in episode one -we get a glimpse of a few in following episodes but they seem to disappear as a threat.  The opening scene we hear about how the Dark One needs to be challenged by the Dragon, but nothing happens to establish him as a threat.  Yes, there's a guy with firey eyes in the dream world, but no one explains who he is and what he's doing.  Watch and Find Out can't be the default answer to all these questions, maybe for one or two things but you end up with 8 episodes worth of questions and very little in the was of answers.  The shame is that they had opportunity with the time and money they had to build a sturdy base for the story but the decisions they took let them down.

 

I don't really disagree with much here in all honesty, as I feel S1 was full of missed opportunities. I think where my optimism lies is that I think there is a love and understanding of the books there in the show, it's execution that is letting it down. 

 

(Out of interest, what is the show about Hillsborough?) 

[Lethira the second]

I hope that they can pick things up in season 2.  I'm somewhat nervous that they are alluding to more Moiraine story; the justification being they want more Rosamund.

 

@notpropaganda73 It's called Anne, follows the story of one of the victims Mothers fighting for justice.

[EduardoEnriqueGonzalez]

13 hours ago, aclund3 said:

Backing off the, 'extra episodes wouldn't have helped based on x,y,z circumstances' I do think more runtime could've really boosted the show in terms of character development (for Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and especially Rand).

The most common criticism I hear from my non-reader friends is they just didn't really care about most of the characters.  Adding moments for the EF5 to interact, show their humanity and their love for one another (especially early) could've really helped to get viewers invested in the characters themselves.  Instead of the simple mystery of, 'I wonder who the DR is' it could've been extended to 'I hope its this character cause they're my favorite!" 

In Rand's case they really needed to do more with him in the first 6 episodes so the viewers actually cared that he's the DR and about to sacrifice himself for his people.  More time with the EF5 could've helped that.

You might be projecting what you'd do with the extra runtime instead of what the showrunners would do. You would have fleshed out the characters. As would I. There's no evidence to suggest the showrunners would have. If fleshing out the main characters was something they really wanted, we'd have seen something of it in 8 hours. The extra 2 hours would not have made a difference in that regard.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

19 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

Episodes 1-6 were already shot before covid, so that doesn't really excuse the earlier episodes.

 

This isn't entirely true. There were two COVID pauses. And they had to do reshoots on the earlier episodes. So COVID restrictions did play into shooting for all of the episodes. Not to mention that post-production work on the first 6 episodes was certainly not far along before the pandemic hit. The entire season was impacted - and with respect to digital effects and so forth, the people involved were adapting to the pandemic on the fly.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I don't really disagree with much here in all honesty, as I feel S1 was full of missed opportunities. I think where my optimism lies is that I think there is a love and understanding of the books there in the show, it's execution that is letting it down. 

This is where I'm at with the show.

Just a couple of little tweaks here and there would have made for a much better show. I'm hoping that S2 manages to elevate in a similar fashion to how the Witcher's S2 is much stronger than its S1.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Elder_Haman
Punctuation

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

This isn't entirely true. There were two COVID pauses. And they had to do reshoots on the earlier episodes. So COVID restrictions did play into shooting for all of the episodes. Not to mention that post-production work on the first 6 episodes was certainly not far along before the pandemic hit. The entire season was impacted - and with respect to digital effects and so forth, the people involved were adapting to the pandemic on the fly.

 

 

I would also add that iirc, even if it wasn't completely shut down, that production / filming was still subject to Covid Protocols, which probably prevented crowd scenes from having as many people as they should have

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I would also add that iirc, even if it wasn't completely shut down, that production / filming was still subject to Covid Protocols, which probably prevented crowd scenes from having as many people as they should have

100%

There's absolutely a reason that Tarwin's Gap was fought by archers standing 6' apart from one another. In fact, I read that there are scenes where the actors were all filmed in different locations.

 

When I start thinking about the shooting from a practical standpoint - it's astounding that they were able to get it off the ground at all.

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

100%

There's absolutely a reason that Tarwin's Gap was fought by archers standing 6' apart from one another. In fact, I read that there are scenes where the actors were all filmed in different locations.

 

When I start thinking about the shooting from a practical standpoint - it's astounding that they were able to get it off the ground at all.

I personally can't imagine how much the production had to shift with covid protocols.  From losing out on stuntmen/extra's, not being able to go to locations to film, to losing the ability to film all sorts of crowd scenes.  Plus the hasty rewrites to loosing a main cast member.

 

I wish we could have seen the season 1 that was actually planned.  I am hoping season 2 doesn't get similar treatment otherwise I could see the show not continuing after 2 or 3 seasons.  While season 1 wasn't perfect before covid shifted things I still believe that covid drastically hurt the overall quality.

[Gothic Flame]

Hmf...change the director to Joss Whedon.

[Jaysen Gore]

13 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Hmf...change the director to Joss Whedon.

Because that worked so well for the JL?

 

[Gothic Flame]

33 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Because that worked so well for the JL?

 

He was brought in after much of it was already done.

But if Avengers 1 and 2 didn't show well to you, then all 7 seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer should have, if for no other reason than his amazing handling of gender balancing. (Rafe could only dream of being that good of a writer/director/producer.)

[VooDooNut]

44 minutes ago, fitzwell said:

If 80 million got this much of a trainwreck for 8 episodes giving them 100 mil for 10 epi would have just been wasting more money.  This show couldn't even do forced perspective correct with Loial, that is free and just requires thought.

 

Book 1 is a car chase.  Again if you can't shoot a car chase in a tv show I'm not sure why you are even running shows.  What a waste of time.  Keep giving excuses of Covid and other garbage. Just watch something is going to come out about why Mat left and it will probably be that they wanted him to do something he didn't want to do.

 

All I can say is what a shame this is.  I was just completely heartbroken, then some of the idiots on the other sides stupid comments finally sunk in.  This is shit WoT yet I can see it in my imagination anytime, I just load up the audio books and an amazing story is waiting for me.  Stop wasting your time being told the main characters are not what WoT is about, or that men suck at everything, or that being stoic or innocent is bad.  Stop watching and go read the books again.  What an amazing world RJ made.

 

 

 

*continues to watch show*

 

*continues to read books*

 

 

Just wanted to add on, Mat being recast was the major injury this season suffered IMO. I think Barney would have been really good. But it's also very interesting to muse on how the show will adapt around this structural change in (hopefully) the most graceful way possible. We shall see.

 

It's fun in a way when issues like this happen to a production. It's a rare opportunity for the audience to "peek behind the curtain" and get a glimpse of the production process. I hope they lean into the casting change instead of trying to hide or downplay it. Maybe the next time Mat is cured it's such a tragic experience that he comes out the other end looking different. But the issue I see with this is the lack of footage with Barney for season 2.

Edited January 7, 2022 by VooDooNut
added on comments about Mat

[Jaysen Gore]

27 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

He was brought in after much of it was already done.

But if Avengers 1 and 2 didn't show well to you, then all 7 seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer should have, if for no other reason than his amazing handling of gender balancing. (Rafe could only dream of being that good of a writer/director/producer.)

I am a Joss Whedon fan. Seriously. But...

 

everything he is involved with is obviously Joss Whedon; he can't help writing modern witty snark dialogue. Close your eyes, and you can hear his characters and know it's him. If you think you had what RJ2 has done by injecting his personality, Joss would be worse in a different direction

 

he'd cost 1/4 of the total budget of the show.

[Gothic Flame]

12 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

If you think you had what RJ2 has done by injecting his personality, Joss would be worse in a different direction

Not sure it'd be worse.

But you're probably right in that it'd be "Joss Whedon."

 

[Jaysen Gore]

6 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Not sure it'd be worse.

But you're probably right in that it'd be "Joss Whedon."

 

yeah, and if you thought the complaints about TV being Mean girls was bad now...

[ForsakenPotato]

For the Moiraine comments, I do think she's the star power especially to hook non-fantasy fans (her most well known roles being literary adaptions of very different genres) and so more time in Season 1 could still have involved more time with Moiraine and Lan instead of more quality time with the EF5.

 

But I disagree that future seasons will revolve around her to the degree season 1 did - the larger arc of WoT is the older characters setting the norms at the start and the younger generation breaking them, discovering new ways to do things, and often replacing them in title or office. They will still need to pay for Rosamund Pike in future seasons and she is still an important character (and may have negotiated to appear at least once in each episode next season), but the EF5 have learned enough at this point she doesn't need to pop up every 2 minutes to explain things or save their behinds.

[Dagon Thyne]

Does any else get the feeling tha the reason they killed Algamar is because they are dropping Graendal?  His only storyline going forward is him and the other GC being controlled.  No evil blonde Dominatrix, no need for him to live.

 

I get the feeling that a sex crazy ssdistic woman with huge tits who keeps sex slaves would be a little much for Amazon.  

[DaddyFinn]

6 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Does any else get the feeling tha the reason they killed Algamar is because they are dropping Graendal?  His only storyline going forward is him and the other GC being controlled.  No evil blonde Dominatrix, no need for him to live.

 

I get the feeling that a sex crazy ssdistic woman with huge tits who keeps sex slaves would be a little much for Amazon.  

The one on the right has some similarity to Graendal

 

[DojoToad]

The season would have been longer with 10 episodes but no better.  Still the same writers, director and showrunner making all the decisions.

 

We still would have had a short muppet-like Loial, "Dark Crystal" looking trollocs, and I'm still amazed at how they managed to make the beautiful Rosamund ugly for the show - she is striking in everything else I've seen her in, all they had to do was not mess it up...

[nsmallw]

49 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

The one on the right has some similarity to Graendal

 

Has anyone tried to figure out who these figurines represent ? I've not seen anyone talk about that, at least in the forums I've been.  

[Lethira the second]

I don't know the first one, but I'm guessing Semirhage, Sammael, not sure on 4 Lanfear, Demandred, Moggy, Graendal

[EmreY]

43 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

Has anyone tried to figure out who these figurines represent ? I've not seen anyone talk about that, at least in the forums I've been.  

We could narrow the list down by who we believe are necessary to the story.  My guess (in declining order of importance) would be Ishamael, Lanfear, Asmodean, Bel'al, Graendal (apparently), Moghedien (or Mesaana), Demandred, and Semirhage.

 

So, left-to-right, my wildest of wild guesses (just to kick things off): Moghedien, Semirhage, Asmodean, Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Bel'al, Graendal.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by EmreY