The Dagger

[SingleMort]

I've seen there has been some debate about the dagger Fain has at the end and whether it is THAT dagger. As per the below. It appears this absolutely is the same dagger and that Fain has Mat's dagger from Shadar Logoth. So I honestly cannot see how Loial and everyone else who got wounded with it cannot be dead. ? 

 

Spoiler

Guess they are going to have to invent a solution for the problem they've created with this if it is true that Loial is coming back. 

Episode 2 

 

 

 

Episode 8 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by SingleMort

[Skipp]

I had always assumed that the dagger grew in strength the longer Fain had it.  But I don't know if there is anything to back that up.

 

Do we know the first time someone is cut with the dagger?  Is it when Fain retrieves it from the WT after Mat has been healed from it?  I believe he kills a novice/accepted with it at that time. 

[SingleMort]

8 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I had always assumed that the dagger grew in strength the longer Fain had it.  But I don't know if there is anything to back that up.

 

Do we know the first time someone is cut with the dagger?  Is it when Fain retrieves it from the WT after Mat has been healed from it?  I believe he kills a novice/accepted with it at that time. 

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ruby-hilted_dagger

 

"The simplest scratch from the dagger brings a rapid festering, skin-blackening death within seconds unless Healing is immediately applied, and sometimes even then it is not enough." - in fairness they don't say how many seconds ?

 

As far as I remember Rand is the only one who survives getting wounded with it during the books.  

Edited December 26, 2021 by SingleMort

[Yojimbo]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I had always assumed that the dagger grew in strength the longer Fain had it.  But I don't know if there is anything to back that up.

 

Do we know the first time someone is cut with the dagger?  Is it when Fain retrieves it from the WT after Mat has been healed from it?  I believe he kills a novice/accepted with it at that time. 

Mat slashes a DF with it during their travels, doesn't he?   And that person dies quickly and horribly.  

 

And as I stated before, they can and will change anything if it serves their purposes, no matter how many ripples it will cause further on in the story.   Jordan's Rules on how things work are only Suggestions to the writers of the show.  

Edited December 26, 2021 by Yojimbo

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Mat slashes a DF with it during their travels, doesn't he?   And that person dies quickly and horribly.  

 

And as I stated before, they can and will change anything if it serves their purposes, no matter how many ripples it will cause further on in the story.   Jordan's Rules on how things work are only Suggestions to the writers of the show.  

Because the dagger being an immediate death sentence is critical to the story how?

 

We'll have to see what they plan to do this this plot point.  I do wonder how it would have played out if Mat had been present.  Would he have been the one stabbed instead?

[Ralph]

25 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Mat slashes a DF with it during their travels, doesn't he?   And that person dies quickly and horribly.  

 

 

 

He almost does, but doesn't actually iirc

 

PF and the novice is the first I think

 

Looking carefully at the scene I think only Loial is stabbed with the dagger? 

 

Mat also survives it of course

[TheDreadReader]

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Because the dagger being an immediate death sentence is critical to the story how?

 

I always found the dagger a little too over-powered in the books if I am being honest.  But, I also don't have a lot of attachment to the Fain storylines either.

 

The biggest impact that I can think of is the interplay between Rand's wounds that help him figure out how to cleanse saidin.  But, they can easily arrive at the same destination from a different route for that one.  

 

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

We'll have to see what they plan to do this this plot point.  I do wonder how it would have played out if Mat had been present.  Would he have been the one stabbed instead?

 

Indeed.   As with any "change" the worst possible impact on future storylines isn't always going to be the one that happens.  

 

My thought on the scene was that the struggle was going to be between Mat and Fain in the throne room.  But, I don't know that having someone injured by the dagger is really all that important.  I understand why the writers would want to put in it but I'm not exactly a fan of it.  We will definitely have to see how it plays out.

 

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I always found the dagger a little too over-powered in the books if I am being honest.  But, I also don't have a lot of attachment to the Fain storylines either.

 

The biggest impact that I can think of is the interplay between Rand's wounds that help him figure out how to cleanse saidin.  But, they can easily arrive at the same destination from a different route for that one. 

 

 

Agreed, this is the biggest impact of the Dagger and I would certainly prefer it to have it's moment injuring Rand.  But we haven't really had the Rand/Fain build up yet so it is possible they may take this in a different direction.  Or we could have the Rand/Fain thing start in season 2.  It is fun to be able to speculate on WoT again.

[SingleMort]

16 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

He almost does, but doesn't actually iirc

 

PF and the novice is the first I think

 

Looking carefully at the scene I think only Loial is stabbed with the dagger? 

 

Mat also survives it of course

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Mat got injured by the dagger? 

 

Okay lets assume for a moment they rewrite the way the dagger works to make sense with the way they have depicted it's use in the show. Okay not sure they needed to, but fine. But why don't they draw more attention to it in the scene with Fain and Perrin? I've read the books mutiple times (although I cannot claim to be the biggest WoT fan by any means) but even I didn't pick up on the fact it was Mat's dagger until I rewatched the episode so I'm sure there must be many non book readers and more casual fans who didn't pick up on it. The fact that whether or not it was the dagger was being questioned even here points to it not being very clear. There should have been some line of dialogue referencing it in my opinion if they think it's important enough that Fain has it. 

 

13 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

I always found the dagger a little too over-powered in the books if I am being honest.  But, I also don't have a lot of attachment to the Fain storylines either.

 

I always thought it was important that the dagger was so OP because it created a much bigger threat that someone so evil had something so powerful and that it turned Fain so evil that even other followers of shadow seemed to fear him. Also if Fain is going to fight Rand with it eventually it needs to be pretty powerful in order to create some real stakes.  

Edited December 26, 2021 by SingleMort

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Mat got injured by the dagger? 

 

 

In the Last Battle at Shayol Ghul

[TheDreadReader]

6 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I always thought it was important that the dagger was so OP because it created a much bigger threat that someone so evil had something so powerful and that it turned Fain so evil that even other followers of shadow seemed to fear him. Also if Fain is going to fight Rand with it eventually it needs to be pretty powerful in order to create some real stakes.  

 

Outside of when Fain gets him with the dagger after Rand's duel with the blademaster, do Fain and Rand ever meet again?

 

Fain has always been an outlier character to me.   I think RJ himself didn't really know what to do with him after a certain point.  (Speculation on my part there.   I wonder what RJ's notes say about it.)

 

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

In the Last Battle at Shayol Ghul

Apologies. You are right it is Mashadar, just it is the same

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Outside of when Fain gets him with the dagger after Rand's duel with the blademaster, do Fain and Rand ever meet again?

 

Fain has always been an outlier character to me.   I think RJ himself didn't really know what to do with him after a certain point.  (Speculation on my part there.   I wonder what RJ's notes say about it.)

 

Doesn't Rand run into Fain while in Far Madding?  But that was the last time I think.

[TheDreadReader]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Doesn't Rand run into Fain while in Far Madding?  But that was the last time I think.

 

Yes, you are right.   In Winter's Heart.  I just looked it up in one of the wikis.

 

 

[Sabio]

Mat killed a Seanchan in Book 2 when they were rescuing the Horn.  I think that was the first dagger kill.  I hope it's not the same dagger or they better explain how he got the dagger.  They always could change what it does when someone is stabbed but if he has the dagger in his possession they need to explain how/where he got it.  

Edited December 26, 2021 by Sabio

[Yojimbo]

52 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Because the dagger being an immediate death sentence is critical to the story how?

 

We'll have to see what they plan to do this this plot point.  I do wonder how it would have played out if Mat had been present.  Would he have been the one stabbed instead?

I am not saying it is critical, just that it is another change that can cause ripples, which may require other changes, which will cause ripples that will require other changes.  And on and on and on.  

[TheDreadReader]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Mat killed a Seanchan in Book 2 when they were rescuing the Horn.  I think that was the first dagger kill.  I hope it's not the same dagger or they better explain how he got the dagger.  They always could change what it does when someone is stabbed but if he has the dagger in his possession they need to explain how/where he got it.  

 

I am wondering if we get some Mat scenes shown in flashback or slightly out of sequence with the new actor in episode 201.  

 

Rafe says we have enough hints that we should be able to figure it out.  So, I am assuming that Fain was Liandrin's man in northharbor and she gave it to him.   But, we're never actually shown what Lan did with the dagger in episode 6, so who knows?

 

In general, episode 6 is the one that frustrates me in the first season.  I'll probably harp on it for months ?

 

[Sabio]

This is also one of my frustrations with Season 1, things happen and you are given no clue how they happen.  Fain comes out of the ways, how did he get in (I know there is a bonus footage picture showing him holding a small object)?  The dagger just vanishes but now Fain may have it?  Moiraine is suddenly outside of Rand's inn and knows Mat is sick.  How?  Too many scenes are just added with no explanation.

 

I do suspect there will be some flashback scenes about Mat showing what he has been doing in Tar Valon.

[DaddyFinn]

The only reason I would like to have the dagger stay true to the books is Rand's wound. I hate&love all the pain he goes through. I hope there will be something special about it, but it will most likely be nerfed based on the show scene.

 

[WhiteVeils]

This doesn't /have/ to be this way, but from the show, it looked like Tar Valon was at least a few hours travel on horseback from the Way Gate.  Fain had the dagger when he was following the gang in the Ways, and he was maybe a few hours or so behind them.  If he was further behind them than that, he would have been caught by Lord Agelmar's men when he left the waygate (and we saw him in the distance in some flashes). 

It seems very possible that Mat heading back towards Tar Valon from the WayGate and Fain heading towards the WayGate from Tar Valone would have intersected.  Something happened to make Mat look so much more terrible when he entered the city than he had.  I think/hope in early Season 2, we get the confrontation between Mat and Fain that was cut out of S01E08, and Mat gets stabbed or at least touched with the dagger at that time.  I don't doubt that if Harris hadn't left, Mat would have been stabbed in E08. 

Loial got stabbed instead for a bunch of reasons. He couldn't interfere with Fain's exposition to Perrin, and it would drive Perrin to feel he failed to defend those he cared about, which, given everything else, would have happened if it had been Mat, and Perrin needs that impetus to go into S2 arc.  
If Rafe really did intend to steer Mat straight to Book 3 (awesome Mat) and skip Book 2 Mat, he would have done so by having Mat taken to Tar Valon with Egwene and Nynaeve after getting stabbed.  This way, he's just already in Tar Valon.

Which leaves stabbing Loial.

Loial can actually be OK....it deflected off a book or whatever.  And Loial is, most importantly, not human, and the evil of the dagger is human evil. He may need the dagger to be cured (though if they are doing Mat>>Book 3, that seems unlikely?) or he may need to be taken to a stedding to be cured (fortunately, there is a very nice stedding with some very friendly ogier in Book 2).  Or he may not need a cure at all but was told something by Fain before he was hit that he reveals to Perrin.

The blade not killing Loial could be a change to the blade, and to me that's OK and kind of matches the powering down of all the power levels (except the channelers) that they are doing so they can build strength up slowly.  We'll see I guess?

[Wassup]

9 hours ago, SingleMort said:

Okay lets assume for a moment they rewrite the way the dagger works to make sense with the way they have depicted it's use in the show. Okay not sure they needed to, but fine. But why don't they draw more attention to it in the scene with Fain and Perrin? I've read the books mutiple times (although I cannot claim to be the biggest WoT fan by any means) but even I didn't pick up on the fact it was Mat's dagger until I rewatched the episode so I'm sure there must be many non book readers and more casual fans who didn't pick up on it. The fact that whether or not it was the dagger was being questioned even here points to it not being very clear. There should have been some line of dialogue referencing it in my opinion if they think it's important enough that Fain has it. 

They showed the whole dagger with a bloody blade before Fain put it away. However, I agree with you. I had to go look up a photo of the dagger to confirm based on the shape of the handle. 
 

They probably had more time on it, but edited it out thinking that was enough. They needed more time for non-book items. 
 

I also thought the dagger in the book made Fain a more immediate threat when someone was around him. His ability to corrupt and manipulate others made him a worthy adversary in the long game. He did not show anything that would make him a physical threat to you like the dagger did. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Wassup
Added more thoughts.

[Chivalry]

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

The only reason I would like to have the dagger stay true to the books is Rand's wound. I hate&love all the pain he goes through. I hope there will be something special about it, but it will most likely be nerfed based on the show scene.

 

I have a feeling this will be cut. On the other hand, I suspect we'll see injuries pop up that are not in the books.

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, Chivalry said:

On the other hand

Pun intended? ?

[Andra]

On 12/26/2021 at 10:45 AM, Yojimbo said:

Mat slashes a DF with it during their travels, doesn't he?   And that person dies quickly and horribly.  

 

And as I stated before, they can and will change anything if it serves their purposes, no matter how many ripples it will cause further on in the story.   Jordan's Rules on how things work are only Suggestions to the writers of the show.  

The first character we see killed by the dagger is Turak's top so'jhin Huon.  By Mat.

Earlier he held it against a darkfriend's neck to keep her from killing Rand with her knife that boiled a bucket of water.  A darkfriend who we meet again later and learn her name (Shiane/Mili Skane).  But he leaves her alive.

The first person we see Fain kill with it is the Accepted in the basement of the Tower when he steals it back and talks to Alviarin.

Both those victims die fast and hard.

[Deviations]

On 12/26/2021 at 11:58 AM, Skipp said:

Because the dagger being an immediate death sentence is critical to the story how?

It gives Fain power over fades, but they won't show that progression either.  You're right.  It doesn't matter.  None of it does.  They can tell whatever story they want.  They should tell the story that's in their hearts.  The story that sings to them.  Just don't pretend it's Jordan's story.  To be honest, I really wish Rafe would have written a story from scratch and told that.  It may have been great but we'll never know.