Mat In Season 1

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

My point is exactly that because if he suspects DFs then sending increased numbers reduces the chance of DFs stealing the Horn. You give the greater chance of success by sending more soldiers unless you are arguing that the majority of the humans are DFs.

 

He suspects DFs but feels his personal confidants are loyal.  We know he's wrong, but it's a human failing to trust people.  No one suspected Ingtar in the books either.
 

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

There where 100s of fades with the trolloc force that they destroyed. Coupled with soldiers to help defend the channlers you are still saying they would have had no value. This makes no sense.

 

If Amalisa and the 2 nameless channelers could achieve absolutely nothing what was the point of them standing against the trolloc force. Again you make no sense.

Amalisa and the other two were not useful strength wise.  Amalisa had training that when combined with Nynaeve and Egwene's power made her formidable.   Her destruction was done in an open area with no concern for collateral.  Not the same as trying to target weaves inside a building with friendlies.
 

[Mailman]

14 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

He suspects DFs but feels his personal confidants are loyal.  We know he's wrong, but it's a human failing to trust people.  No one suspected Ingtar in the books either.
 

Amalisa and the other two were not useful strength wise.  Amalisa had training that when combined with Nynaeve and Egwene's power made her formidable.   Her destruction was done in an open area with no concern for collateral.  Not the same as trying to target weaves inside a building with friendlies.
 

Again you are arguing my point that increasing the numbers leads to a greater chance of success.

 

So the almost powerless Amalisa had training with vast destructive forces despite not having the ability to actually channel enough to use those forces.

 

Think about what you are saying. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Mailman

[Juan Farstrider]

6 minutes ago, Mailman said:

So the almost powerless Amalisa had training with vast destructive forces despite not having the ability to actually channel enough to use those forces.

 

Think about what you are saying. 

It's like being trained to dead-lift 700 lbs but weighing 140. Or having no arms or shoulders but being taught to shoot a rifle. Makes total sense! /s

[expat]

Quote

Underscore added. Point of information, shifty and lazy are not racist terms. It is racist to believe that any particular ethnic group is, as a group, "shifty" or "lazy," but those terms themselves do not refer to any ethnic or racial characteristic.

 

And since the Emonds Field folk are uniformly and exclusively white in the books, there isn't any possible "racism" in description of Coplins.

"Shifty" and "lazy" certainly have racist undertones when used to describe a group.  Remember American history when immigration in the 1800s switched from mostly Northern European to Southern and Eastern European.  Everyone was white, but the abuse and discrimination against the Italians, Poles, etc was still racist. 

 

If you want to use another word than racist, fine.  It was still the case that the book centric EF characters looked down on whole groups (families) using disparaging language often found in racist arguments. Were they a valid description of the Coplins/Congars? Who knows since the books never addressed it other than the put-downs.  Just seemed out of place and unnecessary.

 

Bad people exist and there is nothing wrong with pointing out their problems. When you extend those issues to everyone in an extended group, you are flirting with danger.  

[Andra]

1 hour ago, expat said:

"Shifty" and "lazy" certainly have racist undertones when used to describe a group.  Remember American history when immigration in the 1800s switched from mostly Northern European to Southern and Eastern European.  Everyone was white, but the abuse and discrimination against the Italians, Poles, etc was still racist. 

 

If you want to use another word than racist, fine.  It was still the case that the book centric EF characters looked down on whole groups (families) using disparaging language often found in racist arguments. Were they a valid description of the Coplins/Congars? Who knows since the books never addressed it other than the put-downs.  Just seemed out of place and unnecessary.

 

Bad people exist and there is nothing wrong with pointing out their problems. When you extend those issues to everyone in an extended group, you are flirting with danger.  

"Shifty" and "lazy" don't have racist undertones unless they are assigned to an ethnic group.  Otherwise, they are just disparaging terms that are applied to individuals.

Noting that certain characteristics run in families is not in itself racist - particularly since the Congars and Coplins are the same "race" as everyone else in the Two Rivers.  Except Rand.

 

Any more than noting that the Hatfields and McCoys had "issues" is racist.

[Andra]

5 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Amalisa and the other two were not useful strength wise.  Amalisa had training that when combined with Nynaeve and Egwene's power made her formidable.   Her destruction was done in an open area with no concern for collateral.  Not the same as trying to target weaves inside a building with friendlies.

The way we learn she can channel is by her nonchalantly igniting multiple wall torches simultaneously, without setting fire to anything else in the hallway by accident.  Given what we are told in the books, that would have taken excellent control and dexterity with the Power, if not necessarily great strength.  And it meant she was actually quite proficient at using "weaves inside a building with friendlies."

 

Sorry, but what we see in the show means precisely the opposite of what you imply.

 

Is it true that she was ordered to do something else - something she would have been completely useless at without Nynaeve and Egwene's presence?  Absolutely.

 

And that's the problem.

Again.

[WhiteVeils]

7 hours ago, Andra said:

Is it true that she was ordered to do something else - something she would have been completely useless at without Nynaeve and Egwene's presence?  Absolutely.

She wasn't ordered to do anything. She was in command.  She chose to make her last stand in front of her city rather than watch it fall. 

[WhiteVeils]

13 hours ago, Mailman said:

There where 100s of fades with the trolloc force that they destroyed. Coupled with soldiers to help defend the channlers you are still saying they would have had no value. This makes no sense.

 

60 fades.

[KakitaOCU]

11 hours ago, Andra said:

The way we learn she can channel is by her nonchalantly igniting multiple wall torches simultaneously, without setting fire to anything else in the hallway by accident.  Given what we are told in the books, that would have taken excellent control and dexterity with the Power, if not necessarily great strength.  And it meant she was actually quite proficient at using "weaves inside a building with friendlies."

In a calm environment with no pressure or time constraints, sure.  I'm a hobbyist Archer.  I can go out to range, take a moment to warm up and then hit multiple stationary targets no problem.  If you put me in a battle situation with people trying to kill me, friendlies and enemies running around and crossing in and out of each other, I don't think I'd do nearly as well, would I?

 

  

16 hours ago, Mailman said:

Again you are arguing my point that increasing the numbers leads to a greater chance of success.

It always depends on the circumstances.  In this case, there is a known factor that SOMEONE is a traitor but not who.  The more people you include the more chance you give information to the traitor who can use it betray you.

By limiting the number you reduce the chance of finding the traitor.  

Example, there are 10 People and 2 are traitors.   If you pick a group of 5 then there are 5 rolls of the dice.  If you pick a group of 2 there are only 2 rolls of the dice.  If you personally feel those 2 are completely loyal then you've reduced those dice rolls.   You can be wrong, but that's only with the advantage of book knowledge.

Who is more likely to turn to the shadow?  The random footsoldier offered power or wealth or who's family is threatened?  Or the Noble who's been with you for decades, fought beside you, saved your life?

WE know Agelmar picked badly, but within the context of the story it's not a bad pick at all.

Edited February 8, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Pukel-man]

16 hours ago, expat said:

"Shifty" and "lazy" certainly have racist undertones when used to describe a group.  Remember American history when immigration in the 1800s switched from mostly Northern European to Southern and Eastern European.  Everyone was white, but the abuse and discrimination against the Italians, Poles, etc was still racist. 

 

If you want to use another word than racist, fine.  It was still the case that the book centric EF characters looked down on whole groups (families) using disparaging language often found in racist arguments. Were they a valid description of the Coplins/Congars? Who knows since the books never addressed it other than the put-downs.  Just seemed out of place and unnecessary.

 

Bad people exist and there is nothing wrong with pointing out their problems. When you extend those issues to everyone in an extended group, you are flirting with danger.  

I think I found the problem. You seem to think that any word used to disparage people in a racist statement then is a racist term. That's false. "All _____ are untrustworthy." Does the word untrustworthy then become a "racist" term? Of course not, that's just ridiculous.

 

The books do portray the Coplins as disreputable, look at how they confronted Moiraine after the Trollocs raided Emonds Field (and were rightly shamed by the mayor). But there's nothing racist about it. Again as Rand & Co are passing from Tear to the portal stone: Rand observes that not even the Coplins would let their farms become as poorly kept as the farmhouses they saw in the country there. Again, it can't be called racist.

[Andra]

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

She wasn't ordered to do anything. She was in command.  She chose to make her last stand in front of her city rather than watch it fall. 

She was "ordered" to use the women and children to protect the city after all the foreigners got out.

She was in command of that effort - because she was given command.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

14 hours ago, Andra said:

The way we learn she can channel is by her nonchalantly igniting multiple wall torches simultaneously, without setting fire to anything else in the hallway by accident.  Given what we are told in the books, that would have taken excellent control and dexterity with the Power, if not necessarily great strength.  And it meant she was actually quite proficient at using "weaves inside a building with friendlies."

 

Sorry, but what we see in the show means precisely the opposite of what you imply.

 

Is it true that she was ordered to do something else - something she would have been completely useless at without Nynaeve and Egwene's presence?  Absolutely.

 

And that's the problem.

Again.

 

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

In a calm environment with no pressure or time constraints, sure.  I'm a hobbyist Archer.  I can go out to range, take a moment to warm up and then hit multiple stationary targets no problem.  If you put me in a battle situation with people trying to kill me, friendlies and enemies running around and crossing in and out of each other, I don't think I'd do nearly as well, would I?

 

That depends - did you have to go through the same kind of intense training we know is required to earn that Ring?  Including passing the extremely stressful testing to be raised Accepted?  She didn't get it by doing nothing but the equivalent of hitting stationary targets at a range.

 

She isn't remotely a "hobbyist."

We're told she left the Tower because she wasn't strong enough, not because she wasn't skilled enough.  Knowing how to lead a Link shows us that she was capable.  And she had experienced trolloc raids before.  So she understood danger and pressure even outside her Tower training with the Power.

 

Yes, I'm using book knowledge to explain something the show doesn't.  But you're doing the opposite - denying book knowledge when the show doesn't.  Unless and until the show says otherwise, the background info should be what the books say it is.  And from what the books tell us, she would have been far better used helping get the Horn to safety than burning thousands of Shadowspawn on a battlefield.

Which you've already acknowledged she couldn't have done without Nynaeve and Egwene's strength, and had no way of knowing about ahead of time.

[KakitaOCU]

44 minutes ago, Andra said:

That depends - did you have to go through the same kind of intense training we know is required to earn that Ring?  Including passing the extremely stressful testing to be raised Accepted?  She didn't get it by doing nothing but the equivalent of hitting stationary targets at a range.

That depends?  Specifically with a bow?  No.  With a Rifle, handgun and humorously and uselessly enough a sword?  Yes.

The accepted test forces stress, it doesn't force combat readiness and training.  In fact the books specifically talk about Accepted and Novices NOT being combat trained and hence why all the accepted were relegated to being batteries for yellows in the last battle.  We also don't know that she passed the test for Accepted, she might have a ring the same reason Morgase has one.  We don't know, but it is a consideration.
 

46 minutes ago, Andra said:

Yes, I'm using book knowledge to explain something the show doesn't.  But you're doing the opposite - denying book knowledge when the show doesn't.  Unless and until the show says otherwise, the background info should be what the books say it is.  And from what the books tell us, she would have been far better used helping get the Horn to safety than burning thousands of Shadowspawn on a battlefield.

I'm not sure how you're getting my stance opposite.  I'm firmly in the boat that unless the show actively changes something the book is valid (IE Linking clearly doesn't protect from burning out anymore and healing doesn't require physical contact).

But you're confusing general stress and difficulty with specific training in a specialized manner.  If she had made the test for the Shawl and failed due to strength, I'd be on board with you saying she's fully combat ready.  But all we know is that she probably passed the Arches, and that doesn't require combat training.  Elayne and Nynaeve certainly had none and passed in the books. 
 

[Andra]

17 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

But you're confusing general stress and difficulty with specific training in a specialized manner.  If she had made the test for the Shawl and failed due to strength, I'd be on board with you saying she's fully combat ready.  But all we know is that she probably passed the Arches, and that doesn't require combat training.  Elayne and Nynaeve certainly had none and passed in the books. 

I'm not saying that novice training gave her meaningful combat readiness.  I'm saying that it trained her to deal with stress while channeling.  Her experience growing up in Fal Dara and living through trolloc raids would have done even more.

 

And while Elayne and Nynaeve hadn't had combat training in the Tower prior to Accepted testing, we know that their experiences (whether in the Tower or outside it) allowed them to handle combat situations - even indoors and surrounded by "friendlies" - when they encountered them.

After being kidnapped on the way to Tear, they destroyed three Fades in a room that were surrounded by Aiel.  Who were fighting both the Fades and the humans that had kidnapped them.

Without harming any of the Aiel.  And would have even if Nynaeve hadn't used Balefire on them.

 

I see no reason to believe that someone who literally grew up with the risk of attack by Shadowspawn on a daily basis would have done worse than they did.

[KakitaOCU]

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

I'm not saying that novice training gave her meaningful combat readiness.  I'm saying that it trained her to deal with stress while channeling.  Her experience growing up in Fal Dara and living through trolloc raids would have done even more.

Skills don't really translate like that, being cool under pressure doesn't mean you can aim at moving targets better or around people you need to not hit.  Again, the only channeling we've seen her do was in a wide open field with no concern for the devastation unleashed.

I specifically brought up the comparison of firing on stationary (ish in the case of the Trollocs coming straight at you.) targets without concern for collateral vs picking moving targets while avoiding friendlies.  In response you're discussing general handling of stressful situations which is not the same animal or conversation.
 

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

And while Elayne and Nynaeve hadn't had combat training in the Tower prior to Accepted testing, we know that their experiences (whether in the Tower or outside it) allowed them to handle combat situations - even indoors and surrounded by "friendlies" - when they encountered them.

Elayne had had one sorta combat situation against the Seanchan.  Before Nynaeve's test she had.   Stood still, unable to grasp the source, while Aginor and Balthamael knocked her out.  She had no combat or channeling training at all.
 

16 minutes ago, Andra said:

After being kidnapped on the way to Tear, they destroyed three Fades in a room that were surrounded by Aiel.  Who were fighting both the Fades and the humans that had kidnapped them.

Without harming any of the Aiel.  And would have even if Nynaeve hadn't used Balefire on them.

Happened after the accepted tests and after Egwene had been forced to strength.  Not relevant to the discussion.   
 

[Andra]

21 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Skills don't really translate like that, being cool under pressure doesn't mean you can aim at moving targets better or around people you need to not hit.  Again, the only channeling we've seen her do was in a wide open field with no concern for the devastation unleashed.

I specifically brought up the comparison of firing on stationary (ish in the case of the Trollocs coming straight at you.) targets without concern for collateral vs picking moving targets while avoiding friendlies.  In response you're discussing general handling of stressful situations which is not the same animal or conversation.
 

Elayne had had one sorta combat situation against the Seanchan.  Before Nynaeve's test she had.   Stood still, unable to grasp the source, while Aginor and Balthamael knocked her out.  She had no combat or channeling training at all.
 

Happened after the accepted tests and after Egwene had been forced to strength.  Not relevant to the discussion.   
 

 

Christ, I am not just talking about "general handling of stressful situations."

But you're right that we're not having the same conversation.  

 

My example of the three of them simply pointed out that Tower training/Accepted testing (which Amalisa had), plus personal experience with danger and fighting (which Amalisa had), can result in precisely the same kind of ability you said Amalisa wouldn't have had.

 

At no point did I say that any of them had received actual combat training in the Tower.

 

 

I'm sorry that you seem unable to grasp the point.

[KakitaOCU]

13 minutes ago, Andra said:

Christ, I am not just talking about "general handling of stressful situations."

But you're right that we're not having the same conversation.  

But all your examples are general handling of stress.  You even invoked her upbringing in the borderlands as something that would help her with those skills.  Unless she was combat channeling BEFORE she went to the Tower, no, they wouldn't.
 

13 minutes ago, Andra said:

My example of the three of them simply pointed out that Tower training/Accepted testing (which Amalisa had), plus personal experience with danger and fighting (which Amalisa had), can result in precisely the same kind of ability you said Amalisa wouldn't have had.

You cited the test for accepted as proof of channeling in dangerous situations and being able to handle combat channeling.  The Test for Accepted technically is supposed to prevent you knowing you can channel, has no guarantee of any specific scenario, and was considered something a person could handle with ZERO channeling training and be fine.  So given that that's the only level that Amalisa is suggested to have reached, no, she was not trained for combat channeling and nothing suggests she was.

Side note: Your example is largely Egwene, who at that point had been forced and trained by the Seanchan on top of having become an accepted and having MORE training after the arches.  Elayne was in a similar boat but weaker.  Nynaeve used a weave that ended the fight immediately and that Amalisa most definately does not know.  Without Balefire, the dead burning Fades would continue fighting.  As I recall dealing with a fade without something to disintegrate them involves cutting them into little pieces.

Fun side note, we se first hand what training in using an implement and then being forced into combat with no actual combat training can lead to horrific mistakes (Laila?)
 

13 minutes ago, Andra said:

At no point did I say that any of them had received actual combat training in the Tower.

My original point was that an inexperienced person channeling into friendlies was a bad idea.  (like handing a teenager a rifle and telling them to only hit enemy targets in a melee).   

If your argument isn't that the Tower trained Novices for combat upto and before the accepted Test, I'm not sure what bringing up Amalisa having a ring accomplishes.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[expat]

Quote

I think I found the problem. You seem to think that any word used to disparage people in a racist statement then is a racist term. That's false. "All _____ are untrustworthy." Does the word untrustworthy then become a "racist" term? Of course not, that's just ridiculous.

Use whatever word you want to describe the situation.  When I read the book, the casual negative stereotyping of the Coplins/Congars felt analogues to racial stereotyping.  Clearly, it didn't bother you.  Did Jordon intend to imply the EF folks were prejudiced or am I reading too much into it, who knows? Maybe someone asked him and there is a quote from a book signing.

 

I'm sure that the descriptions were spot on for some Coplins/Congars, but all of them?  Highly unlikely that all members of a group share specific negative traits (or positive traits).  If a group feels that the whole town is against them, I suspect that might make them angry and aggressive towards townsfolks.  The perfect feedback loop for prejudice to form and propagate.

 

It was a minor point, but unnecessary and annoying.

[Andra]

19 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

But all your examples are general handling of stress.  You even invoked her upbringing in the borderlands as something that would help her with those skills.  Unless she was combat channeling BEFORE she went to the Tower, no, they wouldn't.
 

You cited the test for accepted as proof of channeling in dangerous situations and being able to handle combat channeling.  The Test for Accepted technically is supposed to prevent you knowing you can channel, has no guarantee of any specific scenario, and was considered something a person could handle with ZERO channeling training and be fine.  So given that that's the only level that Amalisa is suggested to have reached, no, she was not trained for combat channeling and nothing suggests she was.

Side note: Your example is largely Egwene, who at that point had been forced and trained by the Seanchan on top of having become an accepted and having MORE training after the arches.  Elayne was in a similar boat but weaker.  Nynaeve used a weave that ended the fight immediately and that Amalisa most definately does not know.  Without Balefire, the dead burning Fades would continue fighting.  As I recall dealing with a fade without something to disintegrate them involves cutting them into little pieces.

Fun side note, we se first hand what training in using an implement and then being forced into combat with no actual combat training can lead to horrific mistakes (Laila?)
 

My original point was that an inexperienced person channeling into friendlies was a bad idea.  (like handing a teenager a rifle and telling them to only hit enemy targets in a melee).   

If your argument isn't that the Tower trained Novices for combat upto and before the accepted Test, I'm not sure what bringing up Amalisa having a ring accomplishes.

 

 

Like I said, not even the same conversation.

[Juan Farstrider]

14 minutes ago, expat said:

Use whatever word you want to describe the situation.  When I read the book, the casual negative stereotyping of the Coplins/Congars felt analogues to racial stereotyping.  Clearly, it didn't bother you.  Did Jordon intend to imply the EF folks were prejudiced or am I reading too much into it, who knows? Maybe someone asked him and there is a quote from a book signing.

 

I'm sure that the descriptions were spot on for some Coplins/Congars, but all of them?  Highly unlikely that all members of a group share specific negative traits (or positive traits).  If a group feels that the whole town is against them, I suspect that might make them angry and aggressive towards townsfolks.  The perfect feedback loop for prejudice to form and propagate.

 

It was a minor point, but unnecessary and annoying.

I read it as class bias or that the polite folk of the village saw them as white trash. I did not see it as race at all, but class.

[Mailman]

11 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

It always depends on the circumstances.  In this case, there is a known factor that SOMEONE is a traitor but not who.  The more people you include the more chance you give information to the traitor who can use it betray you.

By limiting the number you reduce the chance of finding the traitor.  

Example, there are 10 People and 2 are traitors.   If you pick a group of 5 then there are 5 rolls of the dice.  If you pick a group of 2 there are only 2 rolls of the dice.  If you personally feel those 2 are completely loyal then you've reduced those dice rolls.   You can be wrong, but that's only with the advantage of book knowledge.

Who is more likely to turn to the shadow?  The random footsoldier offered power or wealth or who's family is threatened?  Or the Noble who's been with you for decades, fought beside you, saved your life?

WE know Agelmar picked badly, but within the context of the story it's not a bad pick at all.

Rubbish unless there are more DFs than allies the more people you send the greater the odds. If he selected his most trusted allies to guard the Horn and sent 50 of them the odds that more than 5 of them would have turned to the dark would be low and then what can they do outnumbered 10 to 1. NOTHING. Even if you go for a insane 20% of them as DFs then they are still massively outnumbered.

 

Send 4 and if one of them is a DF he could kill 1 or 2 of the others in a ambush and then its 1 vs 1 for the horn even without bringing fades into it.

 

I see you have ignored the issues with your argument about Amalisa training/power.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Mailman

[Requiem]

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

Rubbish unless there are more DFs than allies the more people you send the greater the odds. If he selected his most trusted allies to guard the Horn and sent 50 of them the odds that more than 5 of them would have turned to the dark would be low and then what can they do outnumbered 10 to 1. NOTHING. Even if you go for a insane 20% of them as DFs then they are still massively outnumbered.

 

Send 4 and if one of them is a DF he could kill 1 or 2 of the others in a ambush and then its 1 vs 1 for the horn even without bringing fades into it.

The whole point is that it only takes one Darkfriend to give the information to the Dark Ones force's so the entire group are butchered by fades. Secrecy is by far the best option, the more people you involve the higher the likelihood that someone you don't want to know finds out.

[Pukel-man]

18 hours ago, expat said:

Use whatever word you want to describe the situation.  When I read the book, the casual negative stereotyping of the Coplins/Congars felt analogues to racial stereotyping.  Clearly, it didn't bother you.  Did Jordon intend to imply the EF folks were prejudiced or am I reading too much into it, who knows? Maybe someone asked him and there is a quote from a book signing.

 

I'm sure that the descriptions were spot on for some Coplins/Congars, but all of them?  Highly unlikely that all members of a group share specific negative traits (or positive traits).  If a group feels that the whole town is against them, I suspect that might make them angry and aggressive towards townsfolks.  The perfect feedback loop for prejudice to form and propagate.

 

It was a minor point, but unnecessary and annoying.

 As Juan Farstrider said, there's a perception of them as low-class people from the other side of the tracks, but they're still all Emonds Field folk (and all white in the books). It's exactly as you said earlier, within one people group there will be some individuals or families that are less neat, less trusting, less friendly, less honest, less reliable, etc, etc. That's how the Coplins are portrayed. It's not racial. It's a reflection that everybody is different, and there are better people and lesser people in any group (racial, geographic, education, career, etc). Trying to make it about race doesn't work at all in this context.

 

That's a theme that comes through repeatedly in WoT: in every group seen in the books, every single one, there are both heroes and villains. Even the hated White Cloaks aren't all bad - see Galad and all those who followed him. Well, except the shadowspawn and Forsaken, they're just all bad. ?

 

And to take this back to the original topic of this thread, this is part of how the show Mat is fundamentally different from book Mat. Rafe wants to make characters that aren't good or bad, they might be deeply flawed characters who do good things. And that's a bad way to approach a classic hero/villain epic story, which is why plenty of folks are not buying what Rafe is selling.

[Cauthonfan4]

12 minutes ago, Pukel-man said:

Rafe wants to make characters that aren't good or bad, they might be deeply flawed characters who do good things. And that's a bad way to approach a classic hero/villain epic story, which is why plenty of folks are not buying what Rafe is selling

And if there was a character who needed to be changed to be "flawed" it was hardly mat.

[Jaysen Gore]

31 minutes ago, Pukel-man said:

 As Juan Farstrider said, there's a perception of them as low-class people from the other side of the tracks, but they're still all Emonds Field folk (and all white in the books). It's exactly as you said earlier, within one people group there will be some individuals or families that are less neat, less trusting, less friendly, less honest, less reliable, etc, etc. That's how the Coplins are portrayed. It's not racial. It's a reflection that everybody is different, and there are better people and lesser people in any group (racial, geographic, education, career, etc). Trying to make it about race doesn't work at all in this context.

 

That's a theme that comes through repeatedly in WoT: in every group seen in the books, every single one, there are both heroes and villains. Even the hated White Cloaks aren't all bad - see Galad and all those who followed him. Well, except the shadowspawn and Forsaken, they're just all bad. ?

 

And to take this back to the original topic of this thread, this is part of how the show Mat is fundamentally different from book Mat. Rafe wants to make characters that aren't good or bad, they might be deeply flawed characters who do good things. And that's a bad way to approach a classic hero/villain epic story, which is why plenty of folks are not buying what Rafe is selling.

And I would add to this that while the Forsaken are all evil, they do have different motivations; Sammael is personal, Demandred is jealousy, Ishamael is despair, Lanfear is ambition. Sure, they may all be evil, they're just evil for different reasons

 

On Mat, it's not that he wasn't grey in the book, it's that TV producers don't want moderate improvements over time, they want extremes. So it's not enough for Mat to be from the poor side of town, he has to be a thief. It's not enough that the Whitecloaks are an evil threat, they kill AS and take trophies. Everything is less subtle, and more extreme. So people without flaws get them, and people who were flawed get more extreme ones.

 

It's the Hollywood way, and as was noted in another thread, it's that way because the general viewing audience demands it.