Plot Issue Definition Level Set - Maybe Book spoilers

[Spiritweaver1]

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Here's a link to Sanderson talking about RJ's notes and methods.  They were... interesting to say the least.

Long story short he appeared to write random sections as his mood hit him, had his notes scattered in a hundred different file folders.

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-wheel-of-time-retrospective-the-notes/

PS: RJ did have an awesome editor. 

Very enlightening.  RJ was clearly a special fella with a special process.  Not so sure about the Rafe team.  Time to roll the dice!

[Kudzu]

5 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Information we've received in the scene: 

1. Moiraine says that she can't see the men's weaves.

Correct

 

5 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

2. A green reacts to Logain's weave as if she can see it. 

This can be one or both of two things.

1. Kerene sensed something breaking the shield and acted on instinct.

2. The stabby things Logain created were visible physical artifacts that even a non channeler would be able to see.

 

8 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

3. Logain reacts to Nynaeve and makes a comment, "like a blazing sun" at the same moment that Nynaeve's weaves are throwing off massive amounts of light. 

I mean you answered this for yourself. Nynaeve's weaves were throwing off massive amounts of visible light.

[KakitaOCU]

42 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Information we've received in the scene: 

1. Moiraine says that she can't see the men's weaves.

2. A green reacts to Logain's weave as if she can see it. 

3. Logain reacts to Nynaeve and makes a comment, "like a blazing sun" at the same moment that Nynaeve's weaves are throwing off massive amounts of light. 

 

1: Yep, they can't.

2: Kerene reacts to the shield breaking by shield Moraine and Liandrin and gets struck in the process.  It's a sacrifice play, not a deliberate attempt to follow Logain's weaves.}

3: Logain reacts to what Nynaeve does and then deliberately repeats what Moraine said to him a short time earlier.

All without any effort to come up with a rationalization, all without having to ignore something or bend myself to find an answer.

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

6 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

In WoTV, did Moiraine Kill the ferry man? 
The answer is both Yes & No.

 

I disagree, and Moiraine's response when Egwene accuses her of killing him demonstrates that she didn't in fact kill him pretty clearly.

The statement by Maigan that compensation for the event was sent to Tairen Ferry is also relevant here - Moiraine would have been counting on that otherwise the risk of death/harm by starvation due to loss of work and trade could have made destroying the ferry alone a weaponised use of the power.  

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The statement by Maigan that compensation for the event was sent to Tairen Ferry is also relevant here - Moiraine would have been counting on that otherwise the risk of death/harm by starvation due to loss of work and trade could have made destroying the ferry alone a weaponised use of the power.  

I don't think it works via snowball effect.  Like I said, there's a later PoV of a sister stating a weave they are laying on someone will do no harm then internally thinking it may very well kill them eventually but it won't do harm itself.

Admittedly that particular sister is a special case, but it's a special case specifically hewing to the Oaths as hard as possible and who absolutely believes the logic is reasonable to them.

[AdamA]

If the third order effect logic was in play, they seemingly couldn't be gentling people, knowing that basically always leads to suicide, except in cases like Logain where they're doing it to counter a direct threat. But they're out there gentling young boys who barely even know they can channel.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, AdamA said:

If the third order effect logic was in play, they seemingly couldn't be gentling people, knowing that basically always leads to suicide, except in cases like Logain where they're doing it to counter a direct threat. But they're out there gentling young boys who barely even know they can channel.

Hardly "young boys" - the inborn spark in males does not manifest much earlier than 15 (Rand and Logain who are more typical are closer to 20) and it is likely to take some time to become apparent and for someone to "send for the Aes Sedai").  At 15 a boy tends to think of himself as a young man (even if with hindsight he later comes to recognise that he was an idiot for thinking that).

[MasterAblar]

16 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

 At 15 a boy tends to think of himself as a young man (even if with hindsight he later comes to recognise that he was an idiot for thinking that).

 

Nonsense, that's darkfriend talk that is.

[Theseus78]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:48 AM, Spiritweaver1 said:

Another example has already been discussed that the Ways are opened with the one power.  Okay but now we are gonna need explanations for the Fades and Trolloc's using the way without channelers, and  Perrin and Loial for that matter.  All of it unnecessary.  Moraine could have simply used the keys.   The series team are already deep in the woods and there are gonna be lions, wolves and plotholes oh my!

This discussion happened in my family after watching Ep 6.  My theory is that there is a waygate-opening ter'angreal (or many, actually).  Which would explain how Ogier normally use the ways and how the Trollocs/Fades use them too.  If this ter'angreal ends up looking like a 3-pointed leaf, all the better. 

[Skipp]

48 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

This discussion happened in my family after watching Ep 6.  My theory is that there is a waygate-opening ter'angreal (or many, actually).  Which would explain how Ogier normally use the ways and how the Trollocs/Fades use them too.  If this ter'angreal ends up looking like a 3-pointed leaf, all the better. 

 

Potential minor spoilers for Episode 7

Spoiler

Apparently they are also using this as to why they cannot just reopen the portal to retrieve poor confused Matrim.  Channeling will act like a Beacon to the Black Wind causing greater risk as they continue their journey.

 

but I love the idea of a 3 leafed ter-angreal used to open the ways for others.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Skipp

[Spiritweaver1]

So after my quick watch of E7 here are my preliminary findings.  If you need to read the definitions in the initial post:

 

Plot Holes

No farms around Fal Dara.  How are they feeding everybody?  Note I floated a separate post on this topic.

 

The blight.  The definition of blight that applies  is a thing that spoils or damages something.  In this episode we go from an essentially desert landscape to something that looks like a mangrove swamp.  That is a plot hole my friends. 

 

 

Plot Foolishness

Lord Anglemar's prideful behavior.  No Shenarian leader  is going to turn down the Dai Shan and a known Aes Sedai help against shadow spawn.  They should have stuck to the book plot here.

 

Not sure whether Anglemar's sister should have an Aes Sedai ring or not.  I am putting it here pending clarification of show canon.  In the books the Aes Sedai are very particular about who gets them.  As far as I know only the queen of Andor has one outside the Aes Sedai.  This may be a plot hole but for now I give them this rating because you can't give the ring to everybody and have a positive ID of accepted or full Aes Sedai.

 

Moraine leaving behind Lan.  I can swallow her leaving the rest although I would be bringing Nyn who has demonstrated the ability to weave a shield and there are no signs of a block yet.  No way is she leaving him behind.  

 

Anyway does anybody else have any they spotted or want to argue these?

 

[Ralph]

21 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

So after my quick watch of E7 here are my preliminary findings.  If you need to read the definitions in the initial post:

 

Plot Holes

No farms around Fal Dara.  How are they feeding everybody?  Note I floated a separate post on this topic.

Common in movies, as you yourself pointed out in the other thread. This is not relevant to plot. Does a plot hole not have to have plot relevance? 

 

21 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

The blight.  The definition of blight that applies  is a thing that spoils or damages something.  In this episode we go from an essentially desert landscape to something that looks like a mangrove swamp.  That is a plot hole my friends. 

We don't yet know enough to judge this. In the books they notice a gradual rise in temperature, but within the Blight they come across forest that attacks them. It has to be much shorter here, so we will see what they have done. 

Again not sure what it has to do with the plot. 

 

21 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

 

Plot Foolishness

Lord Anglemar's prideful behavior.  No Shenarian leader  is going to turn down the Dai Shan and a known Aes Sedai help against shadow spawn.  They should have stuck to the book plot here.

I don't know why they changed it, but I am more bothered by the general attitude than him not wanting her help. Afawk they do not know of any shadowspawn army at the Gap in the show at this stage. (And Trollocs would find it tough to get through the mangrove swamp anyway ?) 

 

21 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Not sure whether Anglemar's sister should have an Aes Sedai ring or not.  I am putting it here pending clarification of show canon.  In the books the Aes Sedai are very particular about who gets them.  As far as I know only the queen of Andor has one outside the Aes Sedai.  This may be a plot hole but for now I give them this rating because you can't give the ring to everybody and have a positive ID of accepted or full Aes Sedai.

I assumed this was based on Morgase having one. Why is this so different for you? 

 

21 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Moraine leaving behind Lan.  I can swallow her leaving the rest although I would be bringing Nyn who has demonstrated the ability to weave a shield and there are no signs of a block yet.  No way is she leaving him behind.  

She thinks she is about to die and wouldn't want to kill him too. I am expecting her to try transfer the bond to N soon. 

 

21 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Anyway does anybody else have any they spotted or want to argue these?

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Ralph

[MasterAblar]

Technically the Aes Sedai ring is awarded once they reach Accepted level not full Aes Sedai. So anyone who failed the test for Aes Sedai should theoretically be allowed to retain the ring, assuming they don't go around acting like a full Aes Sedai.

 

And keep in mind Morgase has an Aes Sedai ring even though she never reached Accepted level with near non existant ability to channel. So exceptions are definitely made.

Edited December 18, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Spiritweaver1]

7 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Common in movies, as you yourself pointed out in the other thread. This is not relevant to plot. Does a plot hole not have to have plot relevance?   This is a good point.  It is just minus points in the world building for me.  

 

We don't yet know enough to judge this. In the books they notice a gradual rise in temperature, but within the Blight they come across forest that attack them. It has to be much shorter here, so we will see what they have done. 

Again not sure what it has to do with the plot.

Maybe I need to go back and edit my original categories.  This one is one that is in the same basic category as the one above.  It is a disconnect in the world building.  This one is less compelling because if you haven't read the books you probably don't know what the blight is "supposed" 

 

I don't know why they changed it, but I am more bothered by the general attitude than him not wanting her help. Afawk they do not know of any shadiwspawn army at in the show at this stage.

 I am with you all the way.  I am troubled by the fact that Mo and Rand are going through what looks like Tarwins gap which should be full of trollocs and fades oh my.   You can't muster an army in a day which is how long it will take them to get to the Eye per Mo.   I have my concerns about E8 but we shall see.

 

I assumed this was based on Morgase having one. Why is this so different for you?

 Because in the books the Aes Sedai are next to death on anyone pretending to be Aes Sedai.  You gave it to one  queen for political reasons, back in history   You can't go around handing rings to every relative of a middling lord and have the ring be the positive ID of the Aes Sedai. 

 

She thinks she is about to die and wouldn't want to kill him too. I am expecting her to try transfer the bond to N soon.

I very much appreciate your position but from the warder reaction previously established in show canon at excruciating detail she would expect him to die trying to avenge her.  Far better to bring your battle brother along.  It increases the odds that both will live.  As far as transferring the bond they are already on the road to the Eye.  I don't think that will happen now.  As you will recall Nyn can't have a warder because she isn't an Aes Sedai or even accepted. 

 

 

So see specific comments in bold above.  

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

 

She thinks she is about to die and wouldn't want to kill him too

Just seen RP says this explicitly in the BtS clip

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

No farms around Fal Dara.  How are they feeding everybody?  Note I floated a separate post on this topic.

 

The blight.  The definition of blight that applies  is a thing that spoils or damages something.  In this episode we go from an essentially desert landscape to something that looks like a mangrove swamp.  That is a plot hole my friends. 

In relation to farms everyone knows boarderlanders survive by chewing rocks for breakfast.

 

In relation to the blight I do not think a visual which is substantially at odds with the book description counts as a plot hole.  What would count is a lack of corrupted creatures making it into a lethal "death world" type environment while they pass through ("sticks", Worms, weird 6 limbed bear things, trees that suddenly lash out at you etc).  A simple warning from Moiraine not to let his flesh touch the trees would have done a lot to make the threat clear.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 12/16/2021 at 7:03 PM, MasterAblar said:

On 12/16/2021 at 2:27 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

 At 15 a boy tends to think of himself as a young man (even if with hindsight he later comes to recognise that he was an idiot for thinking that).

 

Nonsense, that's darkfriend talk that is.

Feel free to paint a dragons fang on my post?.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Regarding the Aes Sedai ring worth noting it has no stone indicating Ajah colour (we get an extreme closeup to make this point).  In the books those who have them as accepted are required to wear them on a particular finger (Aes Sedai where they want or not at all) but the lack of gem is a better visual cue for the show.

[Theseus78]

On 12/18/2021 at 2:02 PM, Spiritweaver1 said:

So after my quick watch of E7 here are my preliminary findings.  If you need to read the definitions in the initial post:

 

Plot Holes

No farms around Fal Dara.  How are they feeding everybody?  Note I floated a separate post on this topic.

 

The blight.  The definition of blight that applies  is a thing that spoils or damages something.  In this episode we go from an essentially desert landscape to something that looks like a mangrove swamp.  That is a plot hole my friends. 

 

 

Plot Foolishness

Lord Anglemar's prideful behavior.  No Shenarian leader  is going to turn down the Dai Shan and a known Aes Sedai help against shadow spawn.  They should have stuck to the book plot here.

 

Not sure whether Anglemar's sister should have an Aes Sedai ring or not.  I am putting it here pending clarification of show canon.  In the books the Aes Sedai are very particular about who gets them.  As far as I know only the queen of Andor has one outside the Aes Sedai.  This may be a plot hole but for now I give them this rating because you can't give the ring to everybody and have a positive ID of accepted or full Aes Sedai.

 

Moraine leaving behind Lan.  I can swallow her leaving the rest although I would be bringing Nyn who has demonstrated the ability to weave a shield and there are no signs of a block yet.  No way is she leaving him behind.  

 

Anyway does anybody else have any they spotted or want to argue these?

 

Farms: it's a fortress, and it's winter.  Meh.

 

The blight: it's an evil magic place.  Not a plot hole, an aesthetic choice by the production team (that I'm not a huge fan of, but I'll accept).

 

Angelmar's behavior was odd.

 

If Angelmar's sister was accepted, she would have had the ring in the books.

 

Moraine leaving behind Lan.  If she expects to die?  Maybe?  I wasn't a fan of that choice either. 

[Spiritweaver1]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:05 AM, KakitaOCU said:

With all due respect, if you didn't read the books or enjoy them, maybe don't try to argue about what the Oaths do and don't allow?

Because again, you're incorrect in this, and the above quote shows that you're incorrect due to lack of knowledge.

 

So I have a proposal for the participants in this thread.   I believe that for purposes of this thread we should probably be using the metaphysics of the show as our baseline and not the books.  That should end some of these discussions and encourage nonreaders to participate.  At this point much of the show is ill defined so we readers fill in the gaps with our knowledge which quite frankly can be misleading.  As an example I completely missed that the Aes Sedai couldn't sense a girl/woman with the spark in her unless she is channeling to say nothing of a fully trained Aes Sedai.  This is going to cause so much trouble later because a whole lot of things depend on that ability.  Gonna be very interested to see if they end up ignoring that.   The approach some of us have been taking is to assume the book metaphysics which is unfair to the nonreaders and masks problems in the series.  Any thoughts?

[chri5]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:47 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Here's a link to Sanderson talking about RJ's notes and methods.  They were... interesting to say the least.

Long story short he appeared to write random sections as his mood hit him, had his notes scattered in a hundred different file folders.

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-wheel-of-time-retrospective-the-notes/

PS: RJ did have an awesome editor. 

Omg that sounds like me at work and home ??

[KakitaOCU]

6 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

So I have a proposal for the participants in this thread.   I believe that for purposes of this thread we should probably be using the metaphysics of the show as our baseline and not the books.  That should end some of these discussions and encourage nonreaders to participate.  At this point much of the show is ill defined so we readers fill in the gaps with our knowledge which quite frankly can be misleading.  As an example I completely missed that the Aes Sedai couldn't sense a girl/woman with the spark in her unless she is channeling to say nothing of a fully trained Aes Sedai.  This is going to cause so much trouble later because a whole lot of things depend on that ability.  Gonna be very interested to see if they end up ignoring that.   The approach some of us have been taking is to assume the book metaphysics which is unfair to the nonreaders and masks problems in the series.  Any thoughts?

I don't disagree and actually look back and cringe a bit at what I wrote because it verges on gatekeeping.  I didn't mean it as such, I don't hold any notion that a fan isn't welcome or "real" if they haven't read the books.

I do think there's a bit of a blurred line there, because until we see some evidence that the oaths work differently there's no reason to not assume they work exactly as they did in the book.  Moraine quotes them pretty exact in episode 2.  

Either way, to be clear, my point was never "You HAVE to use the whole books and have read them."  I only meant that if you see multiples of us saying "This is specifically the way the oaths work and we can quote the author and sections of the book."  Maybe don't argue that it's the wrong interpretation.

Also either way, my apologies if my comment at all came off as Gate-keeping.  I have toh.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

6 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

So I have a proposal for the participants in this thread.   I believe that for purposes of this thread we should probably be using the metaphysics of the show as our baseline and not the books.  That should end some of these discussions and encourage nonreaders to participate.  At this point much of the show is ill defined so we readers fill in the gaps with our knowledge which quite frankly can be misleading.  As an example I completely missed that the Aes Sedai couldn't sense a girl/woman with the spark in her unless she is channeling to say nothing of a fully trained Aes Sedai.  This is going to cause so much trouble later because a whole lot of things depend on that ability.  Gonna be very interested to see if they end up ignoring that.   The approach some of us have been taking is to assume the book metaphysics which is unfair to the nonreaders and masks problems in the series.  Any thoughts?

Expand  

I don't disagree and actually look back and cringe a bit at what I wrote because it verges on gatekeeping.  I didn't mean it as such, I don't hold any notion that a fan isn't welcome or "real" if they haven't read the books.

I do think there's a bit of a blurred line there, because until we see some evidence that the oaths work differently there's no reason to not assume they work exactly as they did in the book.  Moraine quotes them pretty exact in episode 2.  

Either way, to be clear, my point was never "You HAVE to use the whole books and have read them."  I only meant that if you see multiples of us saying "This is specifically the way the oaths work and we can quote the author and sections of the book."  Maybe don't argue that it's the wrong interpretation.

Also either way, my apologies if my comment at all came off as Gate-keeping.  I have toh.

If you do prefer it in show only Moiraine explicitly states that the oaths do work the same way in show as in the books way in E2 to Egwene "Exact verbiage please" when discussing the oaths and after meeting the whitecloaks when she explains that she did not lie.