Plot Issue Definition Level Set - Maybe Book spoilers

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

33 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

And not everything that the Ads Sedai do or say can or should be excused by double-speak.

The rest can be explained (not excused) by "an Aes Sedai can state what she thinks is the truth even if she is wrong" which is an approximate quote from 

Spoiler

Asmodean when he explains to Rand how Moiraine was in error when she stated that men and women are of equal raw strength in the power - in the books men are on average stronger balanced by women having control of linking (not an exhaustive statement of differences but the most significant)

 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

I don't like the novels and didn't make it very far into them.

 

And not everything that the Ads Sedai do or say can or should be excused by double-speak.

With all due respect, if you didn't read the books or enjoy them, maybe don't try to argue about what the Oaths do and don't allow?

Because again, you're incorrect in this, and the above quote shows that you're incorrect due to lack of knowledge.

It's perfectly valid to not like it, or for it not to work for you, like my last post said, your personal opinion is just that.  But These aren't plotholes.  These are deliberate nods to the way the First Oath was set up in the books and how it works near constantly through the entire thing.  There's even PoV chapters where Aes Sedai deliberately think through in their head how something doesn't violate the oath.  (An example is a sister swearing that nothing they do will harm a person while internally thinking what they do may very well drive the person to suicide if it works badly, but the exact action THEY are taking is perfectly harmless.)

[DigificWriter]

27 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

an Aes Sedai can state what she thinks is the truth even if she is wrong

 

And herein lies the problem with the situation in question.

 

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

With all due respect, if you didn't read the books or enjoy them, maybe don't try to argue about what the Oaths do and don't allow?

Because again, you're incorrect in this, and the above quote shows that you're incorrect due to lack of knowledge.

It's perfectly valid to not like it, or for it not to work for you, like my last post said, your personal opinion is just that.  But These aren't plotholes.  These are deliberate nods to the way the First Oath was set up in the books and how it works near constantly through the entire thing.  There's even PoV chapters where Aes Sedai deliberately think through in their head how something doesn't violate the oath.  (An example is a sister swearing that nothing they do will harm a person while internally thinking what they do may very well drive the person to suicide if it works badly, but the exact action THEY are taking is perfectly harmless.)

 

The show presented us as viewers with a clear-cut scenario in which it is impossible to argue, based on the visual record, that Moiraine did not know that Nynaeve could Channel. Therefore, the concept of "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks, may not be the truth you think you hear" should not in any way be applicable.

 

Moraine pretending that she didn't already know where Rand and Mat were when she went to seek out Egwene and Perrin is also a scenario in which said concept should not in any way be applicable because in both situations, Moiraine is either directly stating or otherwise implying demonstrably untrue things.

[TheDreadReader]

6 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

And herein lies the problem with the situation in question.

 

 

The show presented us as viewers with a clear-cut scenario in which it is impossible to argue, based on the visual record, that Moiraine did not know that Nynaeve could Channel. Therefore, the concept of "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks, may not be the truth you think you hear" should not in any way be applicable.

 

Why?

 

It is applicable whenever an Aes Sedai speaks.   It is a central concept in both the show and the books.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Moraine pretending that she didn't already know where Rand and Mat were when she went to seek out Egwene and Perrin is also a scenario in which said concept should not in any way be applicable because in both situations, Moiraine is either directly stating or otherwise implying demonstrably untrue things.

 

That is the crux.  Her words are true but their meaning is more complicated.

 

It matters that what she says is both 'demonstrably true' and 'demonstrably untrue' at the same time.  It is up to both the characters and us to figure that out.  Aes Sedai dialogue is always "unreliable" in that regard.   

 

 

 

 

[DigificWriter]

6 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

what she says is both 'demonstrably true' and 'demonstrably untrue' at the same time

 

Something that is demonstrably true cannot be also simultaneously demonstrably untrue, especially when there is a visual or written record allowing for the unequivocal demonstration of either truth or untruth.

[Spiritweaver1]

One of the things that I have been trying to eliminate in my IRL discussions on a great variety of topics is the need to convince others that I am right.  I love debate and one of the gratifications of debate is to force the other person to concede the debate. However forcing folk to their figurative knees may be momentarily gratifying but it damages relationship.   I started this  topic off as a place to focus discussion on perceived problems with the massive rewrite underway.  So far I am pleased with the discussion.   I do think that there is a danger in starting to compare knowledge of Randland when discussing what is happening in Rafeland.  I might even postulate that book knowledge is a handicap.   It is far to easy for our minds to fill in gaps in the story with lore/rules from the books.  Nonreaders have nothing but the series to go by and thus have a very important role to play in the discussion about problems with the writing.

 

For me Rafe and co have deviated so far from the books that one can't simply assume the rules of the books still apply.  In any fantasy story the rules of that world need to be developed and fleshed out.  In my view Rafe and co now have to spend time expounding on their lore whereas if they would have stuck closer to the story (an Aes Sedai can sense a woman who has the spark and will eventually channel) then they wouldn't have to develop their own rules.  Another example has already been discussed that the Ways are opened with the one power.  Okay but now we are gonna need explanations for the Fades and Trolloc's using the way without channelers, and  Perrin and Loial for that matter.  All of it unnecessary.  Moraine could have simply used the keys.   The series team are already deep in the woods and there are gonna be lions, wolves and plotholes oh my!

[SinisterDeath]

17 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Something that is demonstrably true cannot be also simultaneously demonstrably untrue, especially when there is a visual or written record allowing for the unequivocal demonstration of either truth or untruth.

Well... They have a word for that, Paradox. 
"Russell's Paradox" is a famous logical paradox...

In WoTV, did Moiraine Kill the ferry man? 
The answer is both Yes & No.

She didn't intend to kill him with the One Power, yet He jumped into the water, killing himself on the effect she created with the one power.

Much like if I shot a gun, and someone ran past the target and got hit by my bullet.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Speaking of plot holes, was I just not paying attention or was there a massive one in episode 4 with regards to men and women being able to see each others' weaves. 

 

Here's what I saw: 

1. Moiraine mentions that she can't see Logain's weaves, specifically wording it to imply that this is a principle which applies broadly. ie, men and women can't see each other's weaves. 

2. Then, the green Aes Sedai seems to see Logain's weave going towards the other two Aes Sedai. She intercepts to save them and is killed. 

3. Lastly, Logain reacts to Nynaeve's healing as if he is seeing her glowing like the sun. But to his eyes, she wouldn't be glowing at all. This one is less egregious, I think, because you could say that he's just reacting to the fact that the whole room is being healed at once, but it sure seems like he sees something. I think he even averts his eyes/covers his face. 

[MasterAblar]

It was confirmed he couldn't see her weaves, he just reacted to the effect of her weaves. 

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

2. Then, the green Aes Sedai seems to see Logain's weave going towards the other two Aes Sedai. She intercepts to save them and is killed. 

In the books, women couldn't see Mens' weaves, but they could sense them. 

If either side couldn't sense a weave, there would be no way for them to "slice" each other's weaves, and it would be even more OP.

 

5 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

3. Lastly, Logain reacts to Nynaeve's healing as if he is seeing her glowing like the sun. But to his eyes, she wouldn't be glowing at all. This one is less egregious, I think, because you could say that he's just reacting to the fact that the whole room is being healed at once, but it sure seems like he sees something. I think he even averts his eyes/covers his face. 

Sarah covered this via Twitter, and basically said that he was reacting to the effects of the weave, not the threads of the power.
E.g. for whatever Reason, Nynaeve's healing weaves emit light. Much like a fireball emits heat & light.

[CaddySedai]

3 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Speaking of plot holes, was I just not paying attention or was there a massive one in episode 4 with regards to men and women being able to see each others' weaves. 

 

Here's what I saw: 

1. Moiraine mentions that she can't see Logain's weaves, specifically wording it to imply that this is a principle which applies broadly. ie, men and women can't see each other's weaves. 

2. Then, the green Aes Sedai seems to see Logain's weave going towards the other two Aes Sedai. She intercepts to save them and is killed. 

3. Lastly, Logain reacts to Nynaeve's healing as if he is seeing her glowing like the sun. But to his eyes, she wouldn't be glowing at all. This one is less egregious, I think, because you could say that he's just reacting to the fact that the whole room is being healed at once, but it sure seems like he sees something. I think he even averts his eyes/covers his face. 

 

 

As far as the Green point - She saw the shield faltering

 

Until it is explained the consensus is that she probably did a lighting effect with it. Or at the very least her hair braid DID defy gravity which would be visually impressive. And the effect of everyone breathing suddenly.

[DigificWriter]

13 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

In WoTV, did Moiraine Kill the ferry man? 
The answer is both Yes & No.

 

I disagree, and Moiraine's response when Egwene accuses her of killing him demonstrates that she didn't in fact kill him pretty clearly.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

29 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 Another example has already been discussed that the Ways are opened with the one power.  Okay but now we are gonna need explanations for the Fades and Trolloc's using the way without channelers, and  Perrin and Loial for that matter.  All of it unnecessary.  Moraine could have simply used the keys.

This (not think example specifically, but this issue in general) is what irks me the most about the adaptation. On its own, it's a fine show. Nothing special, and full of cringe, but fine. However, once you get into changes like this one, that's where I start to feel weird. 

 

When something from the books would have worked just fine in the show but is changed for no apparent reason, it doesn't really inspire faith that the writers respect the source material. But hey, that's just me. 

[CaddySedai]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I disagree, and Moiraine's response when Egwene accuses her of killing him demonstrates that she didn't in fact kill him pretty clearly.

 

Her intent was not to kill him - certainly.

 

But she used the power to sink the ferry.

 

Seeing it sinking he willingly dove in to try to save it.

 

Moiraine did not do anything to even attempt to stop him - or it.

 

So even if its not murder or even intentional homicide - does not mean she didn't kill him.

 

like @SinisterDeath states - its no different than say - being at a range. Checking the downfield is clear. Aiming a gun. Firing the gun. But just before you do someone jumps the rail and gets in the path of the bullet and dies.

 

Ya still killed them, it just was neither a crime nor intentional.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

15 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

In the books, women couldn't see Mens' weaves, but they could sense them. 

If either side couldn't sense a weave, there would be no way for them to "slice" each other's weaves, and it would be even more OP

Cool cool. My only issue here, then, is that if the show is just being taken by itself, that whole sequence of events that I laid out comes across as confusing. They may explain how it all works later, but until then, given what the show has told us, the scene doesn't look like it makes sense. 

 

In that case, it's not a plot hole problem, but it is a confusingly directed/staged/written sequence of events because it presents show watchers with apparently conflicting information. 

[CaddySedai]

7 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

When something from the books would have worked just fine in the show but is changed for no apparent reason, it doesn't really inspire faith that the writers respect the source material. But hey, that's just me. 

 

Highly subjective what one considers - for no reason. What you and I as long time readers might feel is a perfectly good sentence might not hold up for TV. I try to give a ton of leeway to showwriters since ... well noone ever asked me to try to adapt something lol.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

The show presented us as viewers with a clear-cut scenario in which it is impossible to argue, based on the visual record, that Moiraine did not know that Nynaeve could Channel. Therefore, the concept of "An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks, may not be the truth you think you hear" should not in any way be applicable.

 

Moraine pretending that she didn't already know where Rand and Mat were when she went to seek out Egwene and Perrin is also a scenario in which said concept should not in any way be applicable because in both situations, Moiraine is either directly stating or otherwise implying demonstrably untrue things.

 

The show presented us with a clear cut rule "Moraine cannot tell outright lies".  She doesn't, multiple people have explained how she wasn't lying and given multiple ways to interpret the words as the truth.  You not liking the answer doesn't make it a plothole or inconsistent.

Moraine thinking Nynaeve was untrainable or could not directly access the source and weave is more than enough for her to claim she didn't know Nynaeve could Channel.

Moraine stating she has eyes and ears watching Rand and Mat is not a lie since she DOES have people watching them.
 

51 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Something that is demonstrably true cannot be also simultaneously demonstrably untrue, especially when there is a visual or written record allowing for the unequivocal demonstration of either truth or untruth.

 

It is demonstrably true that Moraine has people watching for Rand and Mat.  It is demonstrably untrue that she doesn't know they are already in the city.  She is misleading Egwene on purpose.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

33 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I disagree, and Moiraine's response when Egwene accuses her of killing him demonstrates that she didn't in fact kill him pretty clearly.

What you missed in that scene, was Egwene said "I thought you couldn't kill with the one power, and From Moiraine's perspective she didn't kill him with the one power. The guy suicided himself on her use of power.

 

Much like if I was at a shooting range, and a random person suicided themselves by running in front of the targets, and I didn't see them do it as I pulled the trigger.
That person would have killed themselves, but I also would be the instrument of their death. Both are true.

In a court of Law in the US, Moiraine could be convicted of Manslaughter. 

 

 

25 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Cool cool. My only issue here, then, is that if the show is just being taken by itself, that whole sequence of events that I laid out comes across as confusing. They may explain how it all works later, but until then, given what the show has told us, the scene doesn't look like it makes sense. 

 

In that case, it's not a plot hole problem, but it is a confusingly directed/staged/written sequence of events because it presents show watchers with apparently conflicting information. 

You have to remember that this is film.
We the viewers are always going to see more than the characters see. Those characters have to act like they see what they're supposed to see. 

They could have the camera switch POV from Nynaeve to Logain, to Lan on what's going on with that event and how what they see changes.... But that might could look really corny.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

You have to remember that this is film.
We the viewers are always going to see more than the characters see. Those characters have to act like they see what they're supposed to see.

True. However, that doesn't mean that the writers/director are excused from the responsibility of creating a comprehensible scene. 

 

It seems like they had this vision of what they wanted to happen and just pushed through with it.  

 

Knowing the limits of your medium, acknowledging those limits, and then being willing to kill your darlings to stay within them is part of the creative team's job. For the most part, they're doing a decent job. But in this scene their job was to tell the story using visual information and the information they gave out was contradictory. It's not a plot hole, but the scene was poorly conceived and executed and thus gave the illusion of a plot hole. 

[KakitaOCU]

30 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

True. However, that doesn't mean that the writers/director are excused from the responsibility of creating a comprehensible scene. 

 

It seems like they had this vision of what they wanted to happen and just pushed through with it.  

Seems laziness on the part of some viewers to me.  

I've said it a few times, but I'll repeat.  When I throw up an explanation for something, it's never something I had to think long and hard about and contemplate.  It's the answer I had in my mind within 10-15 seconds of my initial view.  

When I say Logain's behavior is combination of remembering Moraine's words, throwing his hands up at the debris, being astounded at Nynaeve mass healing a dozen fatal wounds.  That's not me going "Hmm, how do I rationalize that Logain did that but can't see Saidar?"  That's just me going "Hmm, Logain can't see Saidar, so.. Ah, alright, Nynaeve did the impossible while flinging stuff around and he's comparing that powerscale to what Moraine said."

Almost all the complaints I've seen have been people going "X doesn't make sense"  then someone gives a plausible explanation and the response is "But I shouldn't have to come up with that answer!"   It's really a confusing stance to take.

[Spiritweaver1]

This will be a bit off topic but it occurs to me that as we plow forward into the series the challenge when doing a based on version of a very complicated; both from a plot perspective, character perspective and metaphysics perspective is to keep track of what you have created so it meshes with what you are intending to create.  That brings up two questions for me?

 

How did RJ do it? Notes, storyboard, computer database awesome editor?  Has this ever been answered before?

 

Does anybody know how Rafe and the elves are doing it?  Their job is harder due to the differing writers assigned to differing episodes.  Keeping track of canon can't be easy in the best of circumstances?

 

Sorry for the run-on sentence.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Spiritweaver1
tried to improve punctuation

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Almost all the complaints I've seen have been people going "X doesn't make sense"  then someone gives a plausible explanation and the response is "But I shouldn't have to come up with that answer!"   It's really a confusing stance to take.

WAFO is the way. Rafe plays daes dae'mar way too good. I don't want to get explanation to everything immediately. That would be weird and clunky.

[Kudzu]

Exact verbiage people, words are important!

 

It may seem like semantics, but Aes Sedai do not take an oath not to "lie" or "deceive", nor do they take an oath to not "kill" or "hurt" with the one power.

 

"To speak no word that is not true"

"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends..."

 

Those are the words that are binding. How those oaths bind an Aes Sedai is determined by how the individual interprets them. How someone else perceives what they say or do is of no consequence, unless the Aes Sedai herself believes they are.

 

Here's an example lifted from something that happens in New Spring.

 

An Aes Sedai can use weaves of air to trap someone, if they don't believe any harm will come to them from said trapping. Someone else however can then shoot that person with an arrow and kill them while they are trapped. This exact scenario happens to Moiraine and she thinks it is skirting very close to breaking the 3rd oath.

 

If Moiraine knew before hand someone was going to shoot the guy, or her intention was to get someone to shoot the guy after he was trapped. The 3rd oath would have prevented her from using the exact same weaves on the exact same guy.

 

I'd also like to point out the fact we are even arguing about this stuff means the show is getting it right. This has Wheel of Time written all over it.

[KakitaOCU]

13 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

How did RJ do it? Notes, storyboard, computer database awesome editor?  Has this ever been answered before?

Here's a link to Sanderson talking about RJ's notes and methods.  They were... interesting to say the least.

Long story short he appeared to write random sections as his mood hit him, had his notes scattered in a hundred different file folders.

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-wheel-of-time-retrospective-the-notes/

PS: RJ did have an awesome editor. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

45 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

When I throw up an explanation for something, it's never something I had to think long and hard about and contemplate.  It's the answer I had in my mind within 10-15 seconds of my initial view.

Information we've received in the scene: 

1. Moiraine says that she can't see the men's weaves.

2. A green reacts to Logain's weave as if she can see it. 

3. Logain reacts to Nynaeve and makes a comment, "like a blazing sun" at the same moment that Nynaeve's weaves are throwing off massive amounts of light. 

 

The audience is never told that the Aes Sedai can "sense" male weaves even if they can't see them. Anyone thinking about this scene only has as much information as the scene gave them. Given that information, it appears to create a contradiction.

 

Now, in a more character focused scene, the writers don't have to give us all the answers. Characters are people, and actions which don't quite make sense can force us to reconsider their personalities and motivations. When writers ask this sort of engagement from their audience, it's a good thing because it deepens our connection with the story. 

 

However, when they muddy up the mechanics of their own world and craft a scene which appears to break the rules that their own characters have established, it only serves to disorient the audience. It's a clumsy scene, and the fact that you have to come in here wielding extra-textual explanations for it is proof of it. 

 

You're like the guy who apologizes for glitches in videogames. "It's cool guys! You fall through the floor, but in 10-15 seconds the game will just spit you back where you were!" 

 

Good on ya that this stuff doesn't bother you, but it doesn't change the fact that it's there.